Cockblocking

[The Kreb]

The double standard jumps out at me here.

[Balefont]

[quote name='Eloisa' post='1702904' date='Feb 27 2009, 19.45'][b]Having sex with a woman who doesn't want to[/b] - that the woman's desires are not even [i]considered[/i]. When the woman responds to the cockblocker,[i] maybe it's because she doesn't want you[/i]. Maybe you don't fit her beauty ideal. Maybe your desperation was noticeable. Maybe he's just her choice, and you've got to put up with it instead of whining like a two-year-old.[/quote]

This struck me, also, as a statement implying rape.


Lyanna, I feel you. In that situation, it was definitely date rape and I don't think any guy in this thread either condones it or has done it himself. Yes, it is an important issue that must be addressed but, methinks and I hope, this isn't the crowd that needs reminding or schooling on the subject.

[MinDonner]

I also did raise the parallels between drink-spiking and plying-date-with-alcohol-until-she-"consents", though this was in the context of the role of guardian angels rather than any specific accusations against the men here.

O woe for all the men, though. There they were, enjoying some good clean misogynistic banter, until we spoilsports came by to make them feel all guilty about it. Feminists are no fun.

You're worried how men are now getting a battering? Consider how fucking hostile the early part of the thread was for women. Full of gems like

"the cock blocker is one of her other girlfriends...often just a jealous jerk who is pissed because she isn't getting enough attention herself" and

"If there's two girls who're interested, one absolutely stunning and one who's the long lost twin of the cookie monster, then he'll go for the cookie monster if he think's there's just a slightly higher chance of getting laid there. He's a handsome guy too, so it's never really a problem for him. Still, the rest of the group appreciate having one they can just aim at whichever girl is in the way." and

"I definitely know a guy that just doesn't give a fuck, he wants to get laid and will shoot for the easiest target. Befriend these people." and "We've always just called it taking one for the team. " and

"Also see the "shit scrape", which is basically when an unwanted person is paying too much attention to you, and you manage to pass them off on one of the types of people like the gentlemen mentioned above (who have very low standards). I didn't invent the term, but I think it's basically like when you step in some poop, and have to scrape it off on a doorjamb or a stick. I guess you could also call it "throwing your buddy on the grenade"." and

"But seriously, just get a fucking GF. It's like a continuous supply of sex. You don't have to lie or add liquor it to make it pay out." and

"[i]Shouldn't this be merged with the "Men see women as objects" thread?[/i]
Nah, these guys obviously see women as people. People who you can sex if you add enough liquor too. "

(this just from the first 50 posts).

Not only this, the entire term "cockblocker" is problematic. If it was just "arsehole friend with no social skills" then yeah, we could all have a laugh about that, but "cockblocker" carries a very specific set of implications, it's That Guy who deprived your Cock of its prize. Which reduces the whole dating thing to just a Quest to Use the Cock. Where do girls fit in with that? Oh, they're just what you use the cock on. The whole thread is a big morass of Fail.

[Balefont]

[quote name='MinDonner' post='1704583' date='Mar 2 2009, 06.47']Not only this, the entire term "cockblocker" is problematic. If it was just "arsehole friend with no social skills" then yeah, we could all have a laugh about that, but "cockblocker" carries a very specific set of implications, it's That Guy who deprived your Cock of its prize. Which reduces [b]the whole dating thing[/b] to just a Quest to Use the Cock. Where do girls fit in with that? Oh, they're just what you use the cock on. The whole thread is a big morass of Fail.[/quote]

I'd not considered this "the whole dating thing" because it's not dating at all. It's hooking up; a totally different animal from dating. And we've already established that both sexes do it. The guys may be more vocal and even may have a more expansive and colorful vocabulary than the women, but women go on the prowl for cock and not "the whole man", too.

I though the general and implied rule to going to bars is that one rarely, if ever, goes to a bar to meet their future soul mate.


ETA: Anyone who intentionally gets a person drunk and takes advantage of that person while he/she is intoxicated - be it a guy to a girl, a girl to a guy, a guy to a guy or a girl to a girl - is lower than pond scum.

[needle]

[quote]I though the general and implied rule to going to bars is that one rarely, if ever, goes to a bar to meet their future soul mate.[/quote]


Honestly, I think that's country-dependant. People in the Uk do. ( or rather, they don't expect to meet their soulmate anywhere else).

Woah, looks like I missed a shitstorm. Shame I'd have to read the whole thread to see what the fuss is about.

[Balefont]

[quote name='needle' post='1704587' date='Mar 2 2009, 07.04']Honestly, I think that's country-dependant. People in the Uk do. ( or rather, they don't expect to meet their soulmate anywhere else).

Woah, looks like I missed a shitstorm. Shame I'd have to read the whole thread to see what the fuss is about.[/quote]

Well, there is also a subset of "bars", imo. There are pubs which are generally more relaxed and there is an increased chance of meeting great people. There are sports bars. There are "pick up" bars. There are club bars... Again, where you choose to go determines the likely-hood of the type of night you will have and how you will be perceived. (I went to a club recently for a friend's birthday because she is going through a divorce and she wanted to be objectified as an ego boost. Needless to say I'm glad I won't have to go back to a place like [i]that[/i] again any time soon. :ack: I felt like I needed to shower when I got home.)

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Arbor Gold' post='1704136' date='Mar 1 2009, 17.35']I agree 100%. They have also been very offensive to me personally, as they paint women as helpless victims with no decision-making abilities of our own.[/quote]

Yeah. I'm not really interested in demanding that men change their behavior in favor of these hypothetical women who go looking for romance (!) at the meat market bar. Especially when we're relying entirely on what are essentially sexist stereotypes to make these arguments. I personally have a hard time believing that those hypothetical women actually exist outside of the paranoid minds of a few jerky guys and the women who are - ironically - inadvertently justifying that stereotype. It is [i]this very stereotype[/i] that even allows for these conversations where women "have" something that men have to "get." :ack:

On bars in the US, yeah you've got a better chance at meeting a decent guy at a pub, but it's not entirely impossible to meet a guy interested in a relationship at a club either, although it's unlikely and you certainly wouldn't go there with that expectation.

And lastly, although I really don't like that we've gone here in this thread, yes, plying your date until she's drunk enough to consent (or, as happens more often, is too drunk to express a lack of consent) is date rape. I'm not talking about situations where both parties get so drunk that they wake up the next morning wondering what happened, I'm talking about intent. It's not as hard to prove as you might think.

[Slyfinger]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1704610' date='Mar 2 2009, 08.06']Yeah. I'm not really interested in demanding that men change their behavior in favor of these hypothetical women who go looking for romance (!) at the meat market bar. Especially when we're relying entirely on what are essentially sexist stereotypes to make these arguments. I personally have a hard time believing that those hypothetical women actually exist outside of the paranoid minds of a few jerky guys and the women who are - ironically - inadvertently justifying that stereotype. [b]It is [i]this very stereotype[/i] that even allows for these conversations where women "have" something that men have to "get." :ack: [/b][/quote]

But women do 'have' something we have to 'get'...






Love. :love:

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Balefont' post='1704576' date='Mar 2 2009, 13.32']Lyanna, I feel you. In that situation, it was definitely date rape and I don't think any guy in this thread either condones it or has done it himself. Yes, it is an important issue that must be addressed but, methinks and I hope, this isn't the crowd that needs reminding or schooling on the subject.[/quote]


Well he wasn't dating me, nor was he planning to. He just saw the opportunity and went for it. You can argue that he didn't know how drunk I was (which is likely) and that he just wanted to lower my inhibitions. It's really not that uncommon.

The question is: where is the line drawn? Where should it be drawn?


Min
[quote]I also did raise the parallels between drink-spiking and plying-date-with-alcohol-until-she-"consents", though this was in the context of the role of guardian angels rather than any specific accusations against the men here.[/quote]

Well, according to Myshkin, this was "accusations of rape", which I guess makes what happened to me and many other women our own fault, I guess.


As for mythical women looking for romance in meat market bars, I think some do, just like some men do, although both groups are a very small subset. I used to get dragged to lots of these places by my friends, and I focused on having a good time myself, without necessarily involving other people than my friends. It is quite possible.
It doesn't help that there are still negative stereotypes about women who have flings or one night stands though, as can be seen earlier in this thread. It just means women are less likely to admit that they're out looking for a hot guy to shag, no?

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1704628' date='Mar 2 2009, 08.38']Well he wasn't dating me, nor was he planning to. He just saw the opportunity and went for it. You can argue that he didn't know how drunk I was (which is likely) and that he just wanted to lower my inhibitions. It's really not that uncommon.

The question is: where is the line drawn? Where should it be drawn?[/quote]

In your situation, you asked for water and the guy brought you booze. A little more evidence from any of the witnesses indicating that he was doing that with the express purpose of trying to have sex with you, and it's an open and shut date rape case.

So there's a good place to draw the line. Run across a girl who [i]wants[/i] another drink, you get it for her with the hope in the back of your mind that it might mean she'll be more likely to have sex with you - not rape. Actually tricking someone into drinking more so they'll be more likely to have sex with you when they've specifically asked for water because they know they need to slow down - rape.

And no, you shouldn't have to worry about being savvy and suspecting every guy you're friends or acquaintances with of trying to trick you into getting wasted.

And guys, make sure you don't have any friends that do this kind of thing, because, trust me, word gets around. And showing up to the bar with [i]that[/i] guy - well let's just say that he's the ultimate cockblocker.

[Lyanna Stark]

Raidne:


I don't disagree with you, but compare it to Myshkin's post above re accusations of rape. You could argue that I should have known it was that kind of place (as per Balefon't posts above about meat market clubs) and that assuming I didn't want to shag him would be demeaning to me as a woman (as per Myshkin's post).

[quote]And guys, make sure you don't have any friends that do this kind of thing, because, trust me, word gets around. And showing up to the bar with that guy - well let's just say that he's the ultimate cockblocker.[/quote]

Oh it is frowned upon to be sure, but I think the outcome of the whole thing and the general opinion was basically that yeah shit happens, and I should have been more careful. Unfortunately, I think this is pretty common and women feel ashamned of it (as it happens, I don't consider it my fault and have never been particularly bothered by it).

[Liffguard]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1704610' date='Mar 2 2009, 13.06']And lastly, although I really don't like that we've gone here in this thread, yes, plying your date until she's drunk enough to consent (or, as happens more often, is too drunk to express a lack of consent) is date rape. I'm not talking about situations where both parties get so drunk that they wake up the next morning wondering what happened, I'm talking about intent. It's not as hard to prove as you might think.[/quote]

Just curious, what do you mean by "plying?" If you force or trick someone into getting drunk then yes, I agree with you. If you only offer to buy someone drinks which they then willingly consume then you're not getting them drunk, you're just supplying them with the means to get themselves drunk if they so choose. And I think we can all agree that someone who voluntarily gets drunk is responsible for the decisions they make whilst in that state. It's not something I do, it seems creepy and very manipulative. But calling it rape seems to be a bit much.

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Liffguard' post='1704705' date='Mar 2 2009, 17.02']Just curious, what do you mean by "plying?" If you force or trick someone into getting drunk then yes, I agree with you. If you only offer to buy someone drinks which they then willingly consume then you're not getting them drunk, you're just supplying them with the means to get themselves drunk if they so choose. And I think we can all agree that someone who voluntarily gets drunk is responsible for the decisions they make whilst in that state. It's not something I do, it seems creepy and very manipulative. But calling it rape seems to be a bit much.[/quote]


Well, this is again a question of where the line should be drawn. I used to work in a bar and it's fairly common for guys to buy double strength drinks when they're out trying to "ply" girls to become more willing if they are not initially all too keen. Is that deceiving? Should they act differently?

To be honest, you can argue that I should have been able to handle myself better than to get so drunk as to go almost unconscious after just the one drink. Maybe he didn't realise how drunk I was. It is very likely he didn't.

That's why I asked above: where should the line be drawn? When is it acceptable behaviour and when is it outright rape? I don't feel that there is a clear line, to me it is definitely a fuzzy area where "creepiness" takes over more and more. The guy who bought that last drink for me probably just thought he was being clever, albeit underhanded.

[Guest Raidne]

[quote name='Liffguard' post='1704705' date='Mar 2 2009, 10.02']Just curious, what do you mean by "plying?" If you force or trick someone into getting drunk then yes, I agree with you. If you only offer to buy someone drinks which they then willingly consume then you're not getting them drunk, you're just supplying them with the means to get themselves drunk if they so choose. And I think we can all agree that someone who voluntarily gets drunk is responsible for the decisions they make whilst in that state. It's not something I do, it seems creepy and very manipulative. But calling it rape seems to be a bit much.[/quote]

Exactly - I mean forcing or tricking. I would also include intentionally pouring drinks stronger - like asking the bartender to bring you a double in a glass usually used for a single. That's trickery.

But getting a girl drinks who wants a drink? Totally fine. And I don't think it's creepy. I think it's awesome when guys buy me drinks when I'm fully intending on get a little ripped.


[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1704704' date='Mar 2 2009, 10.01']I don't disagree with you, but compare it to Myshkin's post above re accusations of rape. You could argue that I should have known it was that kind of place (as per Balefon't posts above about meat market clubs) and that assuming I didn't want to shag him would be demeaning to me as a woman (as per Myshkin's post).[/quote]

No, I don't think so. "It's that kind of place" means don't willingly go home with a guy you met at the club thinking that it's going to result in a relationship, not that you should expect someone you know to spike your drink and take advantage of you.

And no, assuming that you only want to shag him because you think it would lead to a relationship is demeaning to women ([i]really[/i] demeaning, IMO).

ETA: If we're talking about Myshkin's post on page 9, I've got to say that I completely agree with him.

And Lyanna, from what you've said here, nearly that exact same thing happened to a friend of mine, and we - and the DC police, FTR - called it rape.

[mormont]

[quote name='Raidne' post='1704715' date='Mar 2 2009, 15.11']But getting a girl drinks who wants a drink? Totally fine. And I don't think it's creepy. I think it's awesome when guys buy me drinks when I'm fully intending on get a little ripped.[/quote]

The problematic situation, though, is surely this: imagine the girl is [i]already[/i] ripped. Her judgment is impaired. We've all been so drunk that we won't say no to another drink, even though we definitely should. That last drink that sends us into a state where we do stupid things we wouldn't do while sober, or even that knocks us out.

Now, if the guy is sober or soberish, can see the girl is that far gone, and buys her a drink anyway: rape?

But then, what if he is completely wrecked himself and [i]can't[/i] see how far gone she is, or is too drunk to realise getting her that drink is a bad idea? Not rape?

But if that's true, the distinction between rape and not-rape might depend on how drunk the guy is - something that's going on in his head, IOW. Can we distinguish between rape and not-rape based on the perpetrator's self-report of how drunk [i]he[/i] was at the time?

I think we'd all agree that the former scenario is at least creepy, if not criminal. But is the latter?

[mcbigski]

[quote name='Auburn Dragon' post='1704278' date='Mar 1 2009, 21.22']My female friends are another story. I haven't found a good way to guard against their swooping in. I know it's insecurity that makes them chase the same guys as me, but sometimes it can be really painful to watch them walk away with someone I liked. The only thing I can do is tell a guy right up front, if they are looking to have sex they can go home with K or M... but if they want to get to know me, that isn't an option.[/quote]

We should definitely hang out sometime. But bring your friends along in case we don't hit it off.

[quote name='Raidne' post='1704686' date='Mar 2 2009, 09.51']So there's a good place to draw the line. Run across a girl who [i]wants[/i] another drink, you get it for her with the hope in the back of your mind that it might mean she'll be more likely to have sex with you - not rape. Actually tricking someone into drinking more so they'll be more likely to have sex with you when they've specifically asked for water because they know they need to slow down - rape.[/quote]

Depends on what you mean by 'tricking.' How can you spoof a water so that's it's still odorless, mostly tasteless and yet also alcoholic? I'd suspect that someone who takes a drink in that situation is of two minds already, and may be hoping for some persuasion, or at least looking for a fig leaf of cover. How hard is it to not bring a glass to your lips that's in your own hands? Put it down, walk away, or just don't sip from it. It's not like you're going to end up drinking it by accident. Could you be more specific about the scenario you mean here? It sounds like you're framing things in such a way that the woman is just in the thrall of the man and can't exercise free will on her own behalf or, perhaps, is just inordinately stupid.

Of course, when women try to ply me with an excess of alcohol to get me in the sack, the joke's almost always on them. After more than a half dozen drinks or so my priorities are generally 'have another drink' or 'go to sleep'. 'Sexy time' is a distant third, at least until the morning.

[Tears of Lys]

[quote name='Balefont' post='1704588' date='Mar 2 2009, 07.13']Well, there is also a subset of "bars", imo. There are pubs which are generally more relaxed and there is an increased chance of meeting great people. There are sports bars. There are "pick up" bars. There are club bars... Again, where you choose to go determines the likely-hood of the type of night you will have and how you will be perceived. (I went to a club recently for a friend's birthday because she is going through a divorce and she wanted to be objectified as an ego boost. Needless to say I'm glad I won't have to go back to a place like [i]that[/i] again any time soon. :ack: [b]I felt like I needed to shower when I got home.)
[/b][/quote]

No doubt! I feel like I need a shower after this [b]thread.[/b]

Eiffel Tower??? :ack: :sick: :leaving:

[Chaldanya]

[i] I'd suspect that someone who takes a drink in that situation is of two minds already, and may be hoping for some persuasion, or at least looking for a fig leaf of cover.[/i]

Be very very careful. You are coming perilously close to the "she wanted it really" line of argument.
N

[Liffguard]

[quote name='mormont' post='1704726' date='Mar 2 2009, 15.23']But then, what if he is completely wrecked himself and [i]can't[/i] see how far gone she is, or is too drunk to realise getting her that drink is a bad idea? Not rape?

But if that's true, the distinction between rape and not-rape might depend on how drunk the guy is - something that's going on in his head, IOW. Can we distinguish between rape and not-rape based on the perpetrator's self-report of how drunk [i]he[/i] was at the time?

I think we'd all agree that the former scenario is at least creepy, if not criminal. But is the latter?[/quote]

Now this is interesting. If the guy is also so drunk is to be unable to make rational decisions, then why is the question only whether or not he raped his female partner? It seems to me that he'd have an equally valid case that she raped him. If two people are mutually plastered, then why is the guy assumed to be the one with the power?

[mormont]

[quote name='mcbigski' post='1704736' date='Mar 2 2009, 15.33']Depends on what you mean by 'tricking.' How can you spoof a water so that's it's still odorless, mostly tasteless and yet also alcoholic?[/quote]

To a sober person? Very difficult. To a drunk, tired, person in a dimly-lit and loud bar late at night, though? Vodka and water with ice could probably get past their befuddled senses. The idea that nobody could possibly ever drink alcohol unknowingly is a pretty weak counterpoint. To stretch it further to imply that they therefore must be lying about wanting a drink is even weaker.

[quote name='Liffguard' post='1704743' date='Mar 2 2009, 15.38']Now this is interesting. If the guy is also so drunk is to be unable to make rational decisions, then why is the question only whether or not he raped his female partner? It seems to me that he'd have an equally valid case that she raped him. If two people are mutually plastered, then why is the guy assumed to be the one with the power?[/quote]

First off, he isn't, necessarily. That would only be true if the conclusion is 'rape'.

Second off, the guy is the subject of the question purely because he is the one buying the drink in this hypothetical.