The Grey Wolf Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 This is kind of a random question but does anyone know what program or software the wiki uses for family trees? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 23, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 23, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 No comment. Errata should stay, BTW. It's the right word, it's widely used in literary, academic, and RPG contexts. But if someone wants to make a disambiguation that covers Errors and points to the Errata page, I don't have an objection to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 6 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said: - This was more difficult to transcribe: you said....there was some early idea that Alysanne was actually Maegor's daughter, "early on" (when? Clash of Kings? When was it first established she was Jahaerys's sister-wife?)....but then Linda shouted in from the other room, "yeah, because there's that line (from ACOK I think?) in which Daenerys says she has the blood of both Rhaenys AND Visenya, which can't literally be true now". Or something. I've changed this section to a sentence from AGOT, which is the only thing that I could find that might hint towarsd Alysanne having originally been planned to be Maegor's daughter. In Daenerys IX, she states that she is the blood of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel. The only thing that I could find that sort of matches the description of the sentence you originally wrote is this: "The three heads were Aegon and his sisters." "Visenya and Rhaenys," she recalled. "I am descended from Aegon and Rhaenys through their son Aenys and their grandson Jaehaerys." From Daenerys V ACOK. I did a google-search to see if this is a sentence which has been changed between versions, but I could not find anything pointing in that direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) I was entirely mistaken on the Alysanne thing, which I thought I noted in the podcast but editing may have lost it. I was mis-remembering the fact that when we first got the Wordstar Targaryen tree -- this was over a decade ago, and not the same family tree George had sent to us for TWoIaF/AWoIaF -- it was very difficult to figure out family connections because the em-dash lines George had set didn't show up when we translated it to doc. So we guessed things, and one of the guesses was that Alysanne was descended from Maegor, which GRRM corrected us on as we turned the tree into a visual file. So, yeah, there's nothing to that. Re: Dany and Maegor, I was conflating things between the quote in AGoT that Rhaenys points out, and the later quote where Dany is exclusively descended from Aegon and Rhaenys. Podcast chats like this are fun, but sometimes one blathers a bit too much and gets things crossed. Edited November 24, 2017 by Ran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 I'll go with GRRM and guess they thought they had better plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 My guess is that what we saw in S2 and S3 was what they thought was better. Yeah, doesn't make sense to me, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 24, 2017 Share Posted November 24, 2017 (edited) You're getting pretty off-topic, don't you think? Noted, of course, but need to keep this thread to wiki editing matter. Edited November 25, 2017 by Ran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ran Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) What do others think? My main concerns about it are length, especially for a character that doesn't exist in the books, and that it feels like a research piece rather than purely an informative one. In the latter regard, I think the ASoIaF Wiki has very naturally attempted to follow Wikipedia's No original research editorial rule, and I think it's served us well. Other sites -- blogs, personal websites, forums, other wikis with different approaches -- strike me as more suitable for this content. The exception has been the various theory articles related to the books, but otherwise we keep it pretty straight. I believe a much briefer article simply citing the most salient statements from the writers and GRRM would be more suitable both in length and to preserve the wiki style. Something along the lines of your typical IMDB "Trivia" entry for a film discussing why a particular detail happened. Edited November 25, 2017 by Ran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 My thoughts on the current Talisa article are: 1. The introduction paragraph is too long. Something like "Talisa Maegyr is a Volantene noble woman working the battlefields of the westerlands as a healer during the War of the Five Kings. She appears only in the TV series, where she is played by Oona Chaplin. Her character replaces Jeyne Westerling as the love interest and later wife of King Robb Stark." This would limit spoilers, as well as remove the information it holds now that is better suited elsewhere on the page (for example, the "behind the scenes" section) 2. The "Game of Thrones" section has no references. Those should definitely be added. All Game of Thrones episodes have their own reference code. The "Background" section could be placed under "History" (for consistency), while the "Season 2" and "Season 3" sections can remain under the "Game of Thrones" heading. 3. The "Behind the scenes" section reads as an essay. I personally think that it should be trimmed significantly, and that the original research should be removed, as Ran says. 4. Concerning the entire text, the interlinking needs some work. Interlinking is currently limited, and should be increased. Additionally, to link to pages on the regular wikipedia, you need to add "w:", for example: [[w:Bryan Cogman|Bryan Cogman]]. That said, the GoT pages are in need of an update, so the fact that the page is being updated is great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 25, 2017 Share Posted November 25, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted November 26, 2017 Share Posted November 26, 2017 (edited) 23 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said: Style aside, what do you think of its conclusions? Overall, I think there is quite some repetition, and the section could do with some shuffeling of the info. The most important comments that I have are given below, with the quoted parts of your text they apply to. "One possibility was that she was a noblewoman pretending to be a healer to go unnoticed as she helped wounded soldiers." Talissa wasn’t pretending to be a healer. She was performing the duties of a healer. If you are suggesting here that “Jeyne Westerling” was pretending to be a woman named “Talisa” so she could go unnoticed in the war-struck westerlands and so prevent getting caught by Stark soldiers on account of her noble blood, that’s simply what you should say This would actually have some thematic resonance with the novels - in which Jeyne's mother, Sybell Spicer, was in fact a spy for Tywin Lannister and knew the Red Wedding was going to happen. Thus if Talisa was a Lannister spy, it would be more of a case of condensing mother and daughter into a single character. Sybel was not a spy for Tywin; As far as we know, she did not pass on any information about Robb to him. Nor did Sybell know about the Red Wedding: “I have two sons as well,” Lady Westerling reminded him. “Rollam is with me, but Raynald was a knight and went with the rebels to the Twins. If I had known what was to happen there, I would never have allowed that.” There was a hint of reproach in her voice. (AFFC) Martin directly stated that the storyline with Talisa in Season 2 of the TV series is not simply what happens "off-screen" in the books with Robb and Jeyne Westerling. Martin did not agree with this change. Is this based on the “but also that's not a...well, I don't know I shouldn't say more about that."” portion of the quote? I can’t say that there’s a definitive indication of Martin not agreeing with the change in this (I’m not saying that there is no proof, I'm saying that the quote you cite as proof might not actually be proof). Martin revealed that this was not a single decision to change "Jeyne Westerling" to "Talisa from Volantis" - there was actually an intermediary step, when they were calling her "Jeyne from Volantis", with no surname. This is significant because it explains the previously not understood casting information from August 11 2011, when Westeros.org contacted HBO but was told that Chaplin's character was just named "Jeyne" with no surname. On September 16 2011, filming spies reported that Chaplin introduced her character in dialogue as "Talisa". Thus at some point in that single month, as Season 2 was filming, Martin had a specific meeting with Benioff and Weiss at which he urged them that this wasn't really the same character as from the books, so they should outright give her a different name. I’d move this to above, where you are actually discussing the casting call, and use the following information to explain the name change from Jeyne to Talissa: In August 2011, HBO told Westeros.org that Chaplin was cast as “Jeyne”. By September 2011, her name had been changed to “Talissa” ("Lissa [sic] from Volantis") According to Bryan Cogman (interview thinkprogress June 8 2012 & interview winteriscoming.net April 2013), the character was originally called “Jeyne”, but her name was changed to “Talisa” during production by Benioff and Weiss, after the writing for season 2 had already been officially wrapped up. The name change has been suggested by Martin, who felt that “Jeyne” was not the name of a Volantene noblewomen (as stated in the introduction paragraph of the page, lacking a source), and because he felt that the character, as Weiss and Benioff had created her, was too different from “Jeyne Westerling” in Martin’s novels. (Your interview quote shows Martin stating that the characters are two different people, but does not cite that this difference was a reason for Martin to suggest the name change, so such a source should be added here as well). Initially, there was some confusion about Talisa being a foreign noblewoman specifically from Volantis, given that the aristocracy of that city are particularly obsessed with being pureborn descendants of the Valyrians, thus they all look like Targaryens: pale skin, blonde hair, purple eyes. Volantene aristocrats are quite descriminatory about racial/ethnic appearance. Chaplin, in contrast, is half-Chilean, with dark hair and olive skin - leading to the simple question of why they made her from Volantis instead of another Free City such as Myr (whose inhabitants actually match that her physical appearance). Talisa in the books actually does have a somewhat darker toned appearance, chestnut hair and brown eyes, due to her maternal grandmother actually being a foreigner from the Free Cities (which one isn't specified). Two things here: The Old Blood, nobles who can prove their unbroken descent from Old Valyria, make up only part of the population of Volantis. As far as I can recall, it has never been stated that there are no nobles living in Volantis who do not belong to the Old Blood. In addition, although the Old Blood trace their descent to the Valyrians, and the appearance of the Valyrians is a typical one (purple/blue eyes, silver hair, pale skin), it has never been stated that al Volantene-born people have the Valyrian appearance. For example, Qavo Nogarys (customs officer in Selhorys), is nobleborn, but has black hair. Nor can I recall Tyrion remarking upon the Valyrian appearance of people during his time in Selhory and Volantis. So the conclusion that all Volantene look like Valyrians/Targaryens is more an assumption. Comparing Talissa’s appearance to Jeyne’s and remarking upon the fact that Jeyne has eastern ancestors might better be moved to the “Volantis” part of the change. Writer Bryan Cogman was also asked about the change in subsequent interviews.[5][6] Cogman explained that he was not directly involved in the change or the writing of this storyline, Benioff and Weiss were, and he had no say in it. Cogman did admit, however, that the change from Jeyne to Talisa was made "during production", after the formal writers' room period for Season 2 had officially wrapped (matching up with the casting announcements and on-set reports). The decision to actually show Robb on-screen at all in Season 2 had been made much earlier than that of course, instead of just giving him the season off and then reappearing in Season 3 (if they strickly followed the books - even Martin didn't want to do that). Cogman also provided some vague explanation for why "Talisa" is from Volantis: the writers had just finished reading A Dance With Dragons after it was released in the break between Season 1 and Season 2, and realized that Volantis was going to be a major location that would actually appear on-screen in later TV seasons, so they wanted to start laying groundwork to introduce it. The bolded part is only about the name change, and would be better suited above (as indicated earlier) About the italic text, I'm not sure if this is even necessary to mention, as it is neither about the name change, nor the background change, nor the character change itself. The last section is not Cogman’s “vague explanation”. This is Cogman’s speculation. The TV writers, realizing that other Free Cities such as Myr may never appear on-screen in the TV series, might simply have decided to drop the story detail about Volantene aristocrats priding themselves on their Valyrian heritage (perhaps making "TV-Volantis" a sort of condensation of book-Volantis and book-Myr, due to limits of adaptation). You are the one who suggests Myr. I’d say stick to the facts. Cogman suggests that the producers (not writers) decided to use Volantis because it was set to reappear in later seasons. There’s nothing that suggests a condensation of Volantis and Myr from the books. In parallel, they may have thought it would take too long to explain that House Westerling is a minor Lannister vassal House that switches sides to the Starks, so they changed Jeyne/Talisa to be a foreigner This is pure speculation. keeping only the core point that she is a political nobody, and Robb gains nothing by marrying her. Although I would personally rephrase this to suite the wikipedia-style better (not calling her a political nobody, but rephrasing it to say that she has no political power in the Seven Kingdoms), the point that the end result of marrying her with regards to "the political advantage the marriage gives Robb" is the same can remain, because it is important to point out. Thus "why Jeyne Westerling was changed to Talisa" is actually posing two separate questions: This bolded intercepting questing is quite unnecesssary, because the first of the two bullet points that follow is mostly repeating what you have already said. If you condense that precedes this (remove your own speculations about Myr, remove unnecessary comparisons with Yara Greyjoy and Alton Lannister, etc.) the text in the first bullet point is basically what the end result will be.. After the Robb Stark character was killed off during the Red Wedding at the end of Season 3 of the TV series, Benioff and Weiss bluntly admitted in an interview with Entertainment Weekly:Benioff: "In the TV show, we've spent more time focused on Robb than in the books, mainly because we love Richard Madden as an actor."[7]Jeyne from the books was changed to a romance storyline with "Talisa", specifically because Benioff and Weiss wanted to pander Richard Madden, the actor, in his performance as a romantic lead That’s not what the quoted part said. They say that Robb received more screen time because they loved the actor. Giving him a romantic storyline would not necessarily have required to change Jeyne into Talisa the way they had. (for example, he could have fallen in love with the captive nobleborn daughter of a Lannister lord). If there never was an abandoned storyline, and what appeared on-screen in the final version is what they always intended, Benioff and Weiss themselves have stated that they invented a romance subplot with Jeyne/Talisa primarily to show off Richard Madden, the actor. If their original intention was for her to be a Lannister spy, it was purely meant to fuel Madden's performance when the revelation of her betrayal left him heartbroken. An abandoned storyline is pure speculation, as is the possible result that might have come from that story line. Thus the change from Jeyne Westerling to Talisa happened, because it was one of the earlier examples of "We reconceived the role to make it worthy of the actor's talents". The only thing you have cited is that the producers wanted to give Richard Madden more screen time. You’ve cited nothing about them wanting to give Oona Chaplin more screen time, which is what you imply by citing the expansion of Indirma’s screen time as an example. Edited November 26, 2017 by Rhaenys_Targaryen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dragon Demands Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) yeah Edited July 27, 2022 by The Dragon Demands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Grey Wolf Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 (edited) Regarding the battles of the Faith Militant Uprising: The Burning of the Sept of Remembrance hasn't been updated to show that 700 Warrior's Sons died. There were six royalist hosts at the Battle of Stonebridge. The Battle at the Great Fork needs to be updated to show that the result was a victory for Maegor. Also, those 6800 men from the Westerlands and Riverlands were not all knights so that needs to be changed as well. (And just where exactly is the Great Fork anyway? The Riverlands or the Crownlands?) Shouldn't there be a page for that ambush at the Wendwater where Ser Horys Hill and his three hundred Poor Fellows died? Edited November 30, 2017 by The Grey Wolf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
direpupy Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 6 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said: Regarding the battles of the Faith Militant Uprising: The Burning of the Sept of Remembrance hasn't been updated to show that 700 Warrior's Sons died. There were six royalist hosts at the Battle of Stonebridge. The Battle at the Great Fork needs to be updated to show that the result was a victory for Maegor. Also, those 6800 men from the Westerlands and Riverlands were not all knights so that needs to be changed as well. (And just where exactly is the Great Fork anyway? The Riverlands or the Crownlands?) Shouldn't there be a page for that ambush at the Wendwater where Ser Horys Hill and his three hundred Poor Fellows died? Fixed the first three but as to the page for they ambush i will wait to see what others like @Rhaenys_Targaryen think. I am also not sure where the great fork is but i will see what i can find out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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