Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Quote the relevant passage.I won't quote the wolf dream, because it lasts for more than a page, but Nymeria seeks out Catelyn's corpse, pulls it out of the river, protects it from the other wolves in her pack, and then flees before the BWB when they arrive. When Arya wakes up, she finally admits that her mother is dead: "It doesn't matter," Arya said in a dull voice. "I know she's dead. I saw her in a dream." This is in the first Arya chapter after the Red Wedding, in ASOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuthmoses Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 well it comes down to this, what is the point of bran's story line? It doesn't matter how much of an ultimate warg master he becomes unless there is something he can warg with that is capable of defeating the others. He could simultaneously control every single known animal beyond the wall and he would still be completely powerless and impotentent against the others. The only thing he could possibly warg with that would be worth his story line is a dragon, otherwise his character arch is pointless ... thus the dragon under winterfell idea is quiet likely spot on. Also what is the point in having stannis and mel up on the wall with all her talk about waking a dragon from stone etc. She is CERTAIN a dragon is sleeping somewhere in westeros she just doesn't know where. She tried the obvious place ... dragonstone and was disapointed. Where else could it be i wonder? As for dany's dragons ... well the north is about the starks not the targs and it will be the starks that defeat the others. Whats the only way to defeat the others? ... A dragon. So either Bran wargs into dany's dragons (which seems unlikely) or the north has its very own dragon, as a last defence in the event that the others breach the wall.And coming back to my original point bran's story line ... its interesting that it was bran the builder who would have buried this thing and Bran (through summer) that was the first person to see it. Bran the builder also built the wall ... he was the main guy setting up the defences against the others so if anywhere in westeros is to be the dwelling place of R'Hollor/ultimate weapon against the others it would make sense that it would be a place built by Bran the builder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 " A cloth dragon swayed on poles amongst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..........."The cloth dragon seems to be a Targaryen banner, the three-headed dragon. It could also be a mummer's dragon, sort of like what they do in China.The full quote is (ACoK, p. 515, pocket version):The phantoms shivered through the murk, images of indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name... mother of dragons, daughter of death... Glowing like the sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire... mother of dragons, slayer of lies... Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness... mother of dragons, bride of fire...This is mentioned in the context of the "three" that seems to surround Dany. Three heads, three mounts, three treasons, three fires. The king in the quote is most likely Stannis. If taken in context of the titles afforded her by the Undying: mother of dragons and daughter of death, slayer of lies, and bride of fire, each of these sections take on a new meaning:The first one, we see Viserys dying with his molten gold crown, a copper skinned lord with silver-gold hair (presumably her dead son, Rhaego), and Rhaegar dying at the trident: Daughter of death. These people are all dead.The second one, we see Stannis, the false king, his false sword. Cloth dragon... could be viewed as a fake dragon. The great stone beast could be viewed as the "lie" Melisandre thinks will happen, a dragon rising from stone. The "stones" were Dany's dragon eggs. Slayer of lies. These are mostly lies.The third one, we get a glimps of Dany riding her wedding gift, the Silver, to a stream in the grass, which could be a reference to her wedding to Khal Drogo. The corpse at the prow of a ship I do not understand. A blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice must be Lyanna's son, Jon: Bride of fire. These could mostly be seen as wedding themes, a foreshadowing to Dany wedding Jon.The corpse is a weak point in this theory. Perhaps someone has another theory on that. Could it be Victarion Greyjoy? As I recall, he has designs on marrying her, and he is riding a ship to come to fetch her (albeit not until after this vision occurred.)The long and short of it is that the stone beast vision is probably a lie.And coming back to my original point bran's story line ... its interesting that it was bran the builder who would have buried this thing and Bran (through summer) that was the first person to see it. Bran the builder also built the wall ... he was the main guy setting up the defences against the others so if anywhere in westeros is to be the dwelling place of R'Hollor/ultimate weapon against the others it would make sense that it would be a place built by Bran the builderThat is a nice connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 well it comes down to this, what is the point of bran's story line? It doesn't matter how much of an ultimate warg master he becomes unless there is something he can warg with that is capable of defeating the others. He could simultaneously control every single known animal beyond the wall and he would still be completely powerless and impotentent against the others. The only thing he could possibly warg with that would be worth his story line is a dragon, otherwise his character arch is pointless ... thus the dragon under winterfell idea is quiet likely spot on. The greenseers had magic beyond just warging. According to Jojen, "All greenseers had the greensight and were wargs as well, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies, swims, or crawls. They could also see through the eyes of the weirwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world." They were also capable of making the sea rise and sweep away land. And I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it. So it's not like Bran needs a dragon or else he'll have nothing to do.Also what is the point in having stannis and mel up on the wall with all her talk about waking a dragon from stone etc. She is CERTAIN a dragon is sleeping somewhere in westeros she just doesn't know where. She tried the obvious place ... dragonstone and was disapointed. Where else could it be i wonder? She was "disappointed" because she was denied the opportunity to sacrifice somebody with king's blood. She never concluded that there was no dragon in Dragonstone.And coming back to my original point bran's story line ... its interesting that it was bran the builder who would have buried this thing and Bran (through summer) that was the first person to see it. Bran the builder also built the wall ... he was the main guy setting up the defences against the others so if anywhere in westeros is to be the dwelling place of R'Hollor/ultimate weapon against the others it would make sense that it would be a place built by Bran the builder.A-ha! So we should be looking for this dragon in the walls of Storm's End, then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The greenseers had magic beyond just warging. According to Jojen, "All greenseers had the greensight and were wargs as well, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies, swims, or crawls. They could also see through the eyes of the weirwoods and see the truth that lies beneath the world." They were also capable of making the sea rise and sweep away land. And I'm sure we haven't seen the end of it. So it's not like Bran needs a dragon or else he'll have nothing to do.She was "disappointed" because she was denied the opportunity to sacrifice somebody with king's blood. She never concluded that there was no dragon in Dragonstone.A-ha! So we should be looking for this dragon in the walls of Storm's End, then.I do not think Bran needs a dragon to be of use. The powers alluded he would have would be very useful indeed. Nor do I particularly support the idea that anyone but Targ's have dragons. The dragon woken from stone was most likely Dany's dragon eggs. They were mentioned many times as being "stone".I think the Bran the Builder reference has merit, though. We have many clues that BtB built magical things, such as the impassable spells protecting the Wall (Bran POV) and Storm's End (Davos POV). It may not be a dragon, but Winterfell is the heart of the north, some might argue, and it is not impossible that BtB spiced the place up somehow. Hot water in the walls, for one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I think the Bran the Builder reference has merit, though. We have many clues that BtB built magical things, such as the impassable spells protecting the Wall (Bran POV) and Storm's End (Davos POV). It may not be a dragon, but Winterfell is the heart of the north, some might argue, and it is not impossible that BtB spiced the place up somehow. Hot water in the walls, for one thing.Oh, I'm sure that there were spells used in the construction of Winterfell, for protection against hostile magic. But that doesn't add up to a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Uhhhhhh, it was just a wolf seeing a fire and explaining it in wolf terms. Nothing more. Nothing less. :bang: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuthmoses Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A-ha! So we should be looking for this dragon in the walls of Storm's End, then.well winterfell is the heart of the north and if he was to have some final fall back site (with whatever other magic he might have weaved) in the event the wall fell it would likely be at winterfell - thats where whatever few remanents of the nightswatch would retreat to, thats where the starks and their bannermen would muster, thats where whatever final hope/weapon Bran the Builder had would have been placed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 well winterfell is the heart of the north and if he was to have some final fall back site (with whatever other magic he might have weaved) in the event the wall fell it would likely be at winterfell - thats where whatever few remanents of the nightswatch would retreat to, thats where the starks and their bannermen would muster, thats where whatever final hope/weapon Bran the Builder had would have been placed.So if we assume that Bran the Builder existed, _and_ we assume that Bran the Builder created some kind of final hope/weapon and put it in Winterfell (and in the Wall), _and_ we assume that Bran the Builder had control over dragons and basically had one to spare, _and_ we assume that dragons can hibernate for thousands of years without consequence... well, if we assume all of that then we still don't have evidence for this theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirius Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 For the record, PDC, it would make sense that Arya through Nymeria and Bran through Summer would immediately recognize Catelyn and Jon, being that they were family and well known already to the wolves. It is much more understandable for a dragon to confuse a wolf than a recognizable human family member.Not that I'm holding much hope for the dragon theory... but expecting a wolf to immediately recognize a dragon when it sees one just because it recognizes two of its master's family members isn't quite fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyStormHeart Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 While I do believe this is a very, very creative theory, I'm just not wholly convinced. I really do think that Martin would have given some kind of clue somewhere else in the book. I would think by now someone would have said - "well did you hear that Marl's lost a whole flock of sheep up there in the Wolfswood... just completely disappeared - no trace! And there was this large swath of burned ground... damnedest thing it is!" or some such thing. Even if they didn't SEE the dragon, which as another poster pointed out, the North is huge and sparsely populated, the thing would be leaving some kind of trace.I would like to point out also that by the time the events in AFFC come about, the rumors of Dany's dragons are rampant, and yet only a few believe them. And as for the Dreadfort boys as witnesses... well, maybe they are currently searching for this dragon and keeping their mouths shut about it?Anyway, I guess we will all find out soon enough. And if Martin or Parris happen to be reading this thread, either they are laughing hysterically or saying "damn damn DAMN!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anya, Vengeance Demon Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 For the record, PDC, it would make sense that Arya through Nymeria and Bran through Summer would immediately recognize Catelyn and Jon, being that they were family and well known already to the wolves. It is much more understandable for a dragon to confuse a wolf than a recognizable human family member.Recognition isn't the issue. If Bran remembered a confusing but terrifying image of a flying snake breathing fire, then that would be confirmation of the theory. The claim was that wargs, when in their familiar, only remember things that are important to their familiars. And there's no reason why Catelyn being found dead would be important to Nymeria, except as a potential food source--Nymeria hasn't seen Catelyn in over a year and has gone quite feral. Similarly, Summer hasn't seen Jon in over a year (and would have had limited contact with Jon when he did, as he was largely at Bran's bedside), so the fact that Jon is now in the presence of a large number of unfamiliar humans is unimportant to Summer.You might also consider Ghost's vision of the wildling horde massed on the Milkwater, which Jon recounted to Qhorin Halfhand in some detail. Varamyr Sixskins can get detailed information about Castle Black's tactical situation from his eagle: "We know how few you were, when you stopped the turtle. We know how many came from Eastwatch. We know how your supplies have dwindled. Pitch, oil, arrows, spears. Even your stair is gone, and that cage can only lift so many." (The quote is from Mance, but his source is Varamyr.) If you want to defend this theory, please tell me why an eagle would care about barrels of pitch and Castle Black's switchback stair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuthmoses Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 i'm not married to this theory but I certainly think its a possibility ... also as I'm continuing my reread of Game (I've just past the chapter of Bran's dream now) - i have come across something which i had forgotten about. Originally I just related all the flying/falling imagery in Bran's dream to his fall off the roof and thought no more about it. But in fairness on the second reread it seems clear that the three eyed crow is telling Bran he can and will be able to fly ... simply because he has to to in effect save the world lol. Now since im sure we can all agree that GRRM isnt going to have bran flying around like superman it implies Bran's training when he gets to coldhands will involve warging/controlling some sort of flying creature. Who knows what that creature will be (eagles/bunch of crows) but if its going to be something that can defeat the others a dragon is certainly not beyond the realms of possibility. - It thens comes back to the fact that it was Bran through summer who may have seen this winterfell - and I use the word cautiously "Dragon" ... it could have been anybody but it wasn't - it was Bran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tuthmoses Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 While I do believe this is a very, very creative theory, I'm just not wholly convinced. I really do think that Martin would have given some kind of clue somewhere else in the book. I would think by now someone would have said - "well did you hear that Marl's lost a whole flock of sheep up there in the Wolfswood... just completely disappeared - no trace! And there was this large swath of burned ground... damnedest thing it is!" or some such thing. true but then i guess doing that wouldn't be as much a clue as a statement saying 'hey guys we got a dragon here' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Other-in-Law Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Now since im sure we can all agree that GRRM isnt going to have bran flying around like superman it implies Bran's training when he gets to coldhands will involve warging/controlling some sort of flying creature. Don't think it implies any such thing. Flying, per the TEC, is a metaphor for developing Greenseer abilities. Literal flight need not have anything to do with it. Are the wings of angels nothing more than the tactical advantage of the RAF? If so, modern technology could contend as a third party in Armageddon. Or is flight a more mystical and ineffable thing in this context? I doubt we'll see literal winged wolves careering about the heavens, entertaining though that would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 There is no actual, hibernating or otherwise, dragon under Winterfell. I will eat a hat before the entire BWB if there is an actual dragon under the castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Redeemed Hound Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 There is no actual, hibernating or otherwise, dragon under Winterfell. I will eat a hat before the entire BWB if there is an actual dragon under the castle. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Woodbyrne,You agree that I will eat a hat if proven incorrect or that you will also eat a hat if proven incorrect? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arewethereyet? Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Some thoughts.As far as the size, dragons only grow as big as their living quarters. Evidently the lands north of the wall are empty and the Stark lands have been pretty well emptied themselves by the wars so I could see a dragon finding empty space to live without detection but would a dragon that just woke up from a long nap leave without eating? There was plenty of meat at Winterfell at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidonie Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 Some thoughts....[would] a dragon that just woke up from a long nap leave without eating? There was plenty of meat at Winterfell at the time.Maybe he was trained not to eat people a long time ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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