Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Silverx2]

while i'd like to believe it was true, just after that passage in the OP we have the following

"Howls shuddered through the night; howls of the man pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. no beast was as noisy as man"

If summer had seen a dragon, it was when boltons bastard, or his men were still there killing everyone and setting stuff on fire. surely someone would have seen the dragon.

[AvengingAryaFan]

"Howls shuddered through the night; howls of the man pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. no beast was as noisy as man"

If summer had seen a dragon, it was when boltons bastard, or his men were still there killing everyone and setting stuff on fire. surely someone would have seen the dragon.

Dang, strong point, if not conclusive.

But it shouldn't have been the comet, as some have suggested:

Did the big red comet show up in ACOK?

Well Perhaps that's what Summer saw, through the smoke.

- because the comet would be more or less stationary in the sky, not gone in a moment. It seems to have been in the sky for 2-4 months, according to various estimates, so it's hardly moving fast.

Also, it shouldn't be unquestionably assumed that any dragon came from Winterfell. I know, the destruction to the first keep is one of the primary correlations to the sighting, and it seems possibly related to the hot springs. But Summer's sighting also stands alone.

I'd like to review the timing between the Kingsmoot, when that horn was blown, and the dragon sighting. The timeline of ASOIAF seems very difficult to pin down. Hmm, Errant Bard has a timeline here; it shows Euron being crowned at the Kingsmoot 12/28/299, while Theon falls, Rodrick dies and Winterfell burns on 10/21/299, over 2 months earlier. People haven't disagreed with those dates to my knowledge. Meh.

[A Redeemed Hound]

I really think this was just how a wolf would describe a burning building. I can't imagine it is anything more than that.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I'd like to review the timing between the Kingsmoot, when that horn was blown, and the dragon sighting. The timeline of ASOIAF seems very difficult to pin down. Hmm, Errant Bard has a timeline here; it shows Euron being crowned at the Kingsmoot 12/28/299, while Theon falls, Rodrick dies and Winterfell burns on 10/21/299, over 2 months earlier. People haven't disagreed with those dates to my knowledge. Meh.

Asha mentions in her first chapter in AFFC that she'd been to the ruins of Winterfell after the sack, and seen the bodies left there. So while I can't confirm Errant Bard's timeline, it's pretty clear that the sack of Winterfell is some weeks (at least) before the kingsmoot.

Also, I also don't think that Summer was reacting to the comet. I don't think that there's any other indication that the comet was still in the sky at that point.

[Lord Godric]

Right, he understands winged snakes breathing fire. Everyday sort of thing, ho hum.

No but he would understand a snake, things that fly, and fire as opposed to a bright red comet or something similar.

[Phobos]

Hey, just came from a thread from small questions, and I was asked to quote this here as well.

When Dany is in the house of the undying, she has a vision of a stone dragon taking flight from a ruined tower.

This is pretty close to what summer saw in winterfell.

I am making conclusions here, but I would say that they fit together pretty well.

This is the exact quote.

" A cloth dragon swayed on poles amongst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..........."

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire..........."

Well, Summer describes a "great winged snake," not a "stone beast." And he describes regular flame, not "shadow fire". And Summer doesn't see this apparition take wing from a smoking tower.

[Phobos]

Well, Summer describes a "great winged snake," not a "stone beast." And he describes regular flame, not "shadow fire". And Summer doesn't see this apparition take wing from a smoking tower.

True that summer didnt see the "thing" taking off from the tower, but I am not quite sure how the wolf would discern what the "thing" was made of, or how to tell regular flame from shadow fire. Is the difference between shadow fire and regular flame described anywhere in the books?

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Is the difference between shadow fire and regular flame described anywhere in the books?

I assume that the two look different, as Dany can tell that the beast is breathing "shadow fire" in her vision and not just regular flame.

[tuthmoses]

we made enough noise to wake a dragon

winged serpent who's roar was a river of flame

Mysterious geothermal vents

there must always be a stark at winterfell

yup I'm in

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Mysterious geothermal vents

Who said that they were mysterious?

[Guest Other-in-Law]

Who said that they were mysterious?

Well, it's obvious there's no natural explanation for them. That's how we know that Iceland is riddled with subterranean dragons, after all.

I'm surprised people haven't made as much of the disturbing implications of this quote, while we're at it:

Summer was savaging Hali, pulling glistening blue snakes from her belly. Her eyes were wide and staring. Bran could not tell whether she was alive or dead.

Some wildlings have infestations of blue snakes in their bellies. Bran observes this directly, so there's no doubt about it. How did they get there and what were they doing? Since it was unclear that Hali was dead or alive when the snakes were removed, perhaps she was a form of wight...possibly created by a different form of magic, like that of the blue-lipped warlocks of Qarth.

The implanted snakes could be the means by which the subjects were controlled. Maybe this is the significance of the warlocks blue lips....the blue snakes will only obey the commands of words spoken by blue lips.

Now, this does raise other questions about what objecive the warlocks might be pursuing with their wildling minions, how they gained contact with a blockaded region so far from their own land, why they would care about Westeros one way or the other, and why we have no mention of them being seen anywhere in the north, why the other characters present at Hali's disemboweling don't notice, and why Bran himself doesn't even make a big deal about it...but there's no getting around those blue snakes because Bran came right out and told us about them!

[Phobos]

Well, it's obvious there's no natural explanation for them. That's how we know that Iceland is riddled with subterranean dragons, after all.

I'm surprised people haven't made as much of the disturbing implications of this quote, while we're at it:

Summer was savaging Hali, pulling glistening blue snakes from her belly. Her eyes were wide and staring. Bran could not tell whether she was alive or dead.

Some wildlings have infestations of blue snakes in their bellies. Bran observes this directly, so there's no doubt about it. How did they get there and what were they doing? Since it was unclear that Hali was dead or alive when the snakes were removed, perhaps she was a form of wight...possibly created by a different form of magic, like that of the blue-lipped warlocks of Qarth.

The implanted snakes could be the means by which the subjects were controlled. Maybe this is the significance of the warlocks blue lips....the blue snakes will only obey the commands of words spoken by blue lips.

Now, this does raise other questions about what objecive the warlocks might be pursuing with their wildling minions, how they gained contact with a blockaded region so far from their own land, why they would care about Westeros one way or the other, and why we have no mention of them being seen anywhere in the north, why the other characters present at Hali's disemboweling don't notice, and why Bran himself doesn't even make a big deal about it...but there's no getting around those blue snakes because Bran came right out and told us about them!

When I read that, I thought that she was disemboweling Hali, never even thought that there was some significance to the "blue snakes".

Now I will have to re read that.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

When I read that, I thought that she was disemboweling Hali, never even thought that there was some significance to the "blue snakes".

Now I will have to re read that.

Oh, man. I believe that we have discovered a new variant on Poe's Law.

[Lord Godric]

When I read that, I thought that she was disemboweling Hali, never even thought that there was some significance to the "blue snakes".

Now I will have to re read that.

:shocked:

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Well, it's obvious there's no natural explanation for them. That's how we know that Iceland is riddled with subterranean dragons, after all.

I'm surprised people haven't made as much of the disturbing implications of this quote, while we're at it:

Summer was savaging Hali, pulling glistening blue snakes from her belly. Her eyes were wide and staring. Bran could not tell whether she was alive or dead.

Some wildlings have infestations of blue snakes in their bellies. Bran observes this directly, so there's no doubt about it. How did they get there and what were they doing? Since it was unclear that Hali was dead or alive when the snakes were removed, perhaps she was a form of wight...possibly created by a different form of magic, like that of the blue-lipped warlocks of Qarth.

The implanted snakes could be the means by which the subjects were controlled. Maybe this is the significance of the warlocks blue lips....the blue snakes will only obey the commands of words spoken by blue lips.

Now, this does raise other questions about what objecive the warlocks might be pursuing with their wildling minions, how they gained contact with a blockaded region so far from their own land, why they would care about Westeros one way or the other, and why we have no mention of them being seen anywhere in the north, why the other characters present at Hali's disemboweling don't notice, and why Bran himself doesn't even make a big deal about it...but there's no getting around those blue snakes because Bran came right out and told us about them!

Again, a silly example to try to make the theory itself look silly, like the sleeping dogs example a few pages back. In this instance, you bring a ton of evidence making the Undying-Hali connection completely impractical. By contrast, the Winterfell Dragon theory does not require a huge stretch of the imagination to be feasible -- just unconventional storytelling (good call Peter Dyckman-Campbell) and a bunch of not-very-observant potential witnesses.

In my eyes, the feasibility argument is pretty irrelevant. I think the door is open for this event to represent a dragon sighting. The question is, is there enough evidence for the theory to have any traction? That is something that people have to decide. Do Osha's comments, Bran!Summer's account, the broken tower prophecy, and the other circumstantial evidence amount to anything? I could see why people say no -- the evidence is weak and indirect. But I like it anyway.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Since this theory sprang back to life again, it has me thinking about something strange about this theory that I think is really telling. Namely, that nobody proposing this theory seems to have a good idea of what role in the story this dragon will serve. It has admittedly been a while since I last read over this thread (since it was last on the front page, a few weeks ago), but it seems like all the theories involve the dragon being woken from its magical slumber more or less by accident, and then not doing anything of importance. This is necessary to make the theory work, of course: it would be hard to explain why Euron or Melisandre or Varamyr Sixskins or whomever the fuck has had a dragon in their back pocket without it coming up at some point in the next two books.

Even the warlocks of Qarth would have sent a stronger force than four dudes in a boat against Daenerys if they had a dragon at their beck and call.

But with that as a constraint, what's the point of having another dragon hanging out in Skagos and not doing anything? What function does it serve in the story?

AHackeySackofIceAndFire:

Good call on what?

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

But with that as a constraint, what's the point of having another dragon hanging out in Skagos and not doing anything? What function does it serve in the story?

AHackeySackofIceAndFire:

Good call on what?

On the unconventional storytelling point, you brought it up a few pages back. It would be rather unconventional for GRRM not to mention this dragon for a long-ass time.

Also, another good question about what function it would serve in the story, and I don't have a particularly satisfying answer yet, although Euron, Mel, or Varamyr are definitely candidates to stumble upon our elderly dragon of Winterfell.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

Also, another good question about what function it would serve in the story, and I don't have a particularly satisfying answer yet...

There really is nothing to this theory, is there? No real evidence, no real indication that there's a mystery here to be solved, nobody can think of what the point would be if it was true, and a lot of vigorous hand waving about an elderly dragon that hasn't done anything except fly off at nearly the speed of sound (while everybody in Winterfell was looking at the ground and putting their fingers in their ears) and then go twiddle its draconic thumbs in Skane.

If somebody had a crazy speculative theory that at least fit the Winterfell dragon into some notion of where the story is going, then I could see what the appeal is. But this is nothing piled upon nothing.

[Lyndsica]

I always thought that it was the comet.

This ^^^^^^