Dragon sighting at Winterfell?!?

[Lord Godric]

Maybe he was trained not to eat people a long time ago...

So he just eats grass?

[Sidonie]

So he just eats grass?

:idea: He might prefer the woolly mammoths beyond the Wall.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

:idea: He might prefer the woolly mammoths beyond the Wall.

Then Jon would have seen it, or heard talk from the wildlings about the dragon attacking the mammoths.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Woodbyrne,

You agree that I will eat a hat if proven incorrect or that you will also eat a hat if proven incorrect?

I'll also eat a hat if you are incorrect. Heck, I'll eat my hat and share half of yours as well. There was no dragon under Winterfell.

[Mr. Natural]

Explain to me why you are so certain that this theory is false. I've yet to see any compelling evidence that shows there is zero chance of this theory being true. If you haven't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is false then I don't see how you could possibly be so certain.

[A Redeemed Hound]

Explain to me why you are so certain that this theory is false. I've yet to see any compelling evidence that shows there is zero chance of this theory being true. If you haven't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is false then I don't see how you could possibly be so certain.

Simply because there is absolutely no compelling evidence that there is/was a dragon under Winterfell.

[A Redeemed Hound]

For those who believe it was a dragon that the wolf saw and not just a wolf's explanation of an inferno...why would there be a dragon under Winterfell? The Targaryens were the first to bring dragons into Westeros according to the history of the books and Winterfell was built thousands of years prior to their arrival. And has anyone read that dragons in Westeros can hibernate for thousands of years for no good reason at all? And not really mind being burried under castles with no food? Or, once released, they can simply vanish into thin air and never be seen by anyone? I understand the questioning of the wolf's description of a giant fire but there is no logical reason to believe a dragon was sleeping under Winterfell. There is no cause for it. It wouldn't even make much sense in the story. The Starks have no historical relations with dragons. They have nothing to do with them actually. :tantrum:

[A Redeemed Hound]

And the fact that GRRM is an amazing storyteller is proof positive that there was no dragon under Winterfell.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

I've yet to see any compelling evidence that shows there is zero chance of this theory being true.

Of course you haven't. What you're asking for is impossible.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

For those who believe it was a dragon that the wolf saw and not just a wolf's explanation of an inferno...why would there be a dragon under Winterfell? The Targaryens were the first to bring dragons into Westeros according to the history of the books and Winterfell was built thousands of years prior to their arrival. And has anyone read that dragons in Westeros can hibernate for thousands of years for no good reason at all? And not really mind being burried under castles with no food? Or, once released, they can simply vanish into thin air and never be seen by anyone? I understand the questioning of the wolf's description of a giant fire but there is no logical reason to believe a dragon was sleeping under Winterfell. There is no cause for it. It wouldn't even make much sense in the story. The Starks have no historical relations with dragons. They have nothing to do with them actually. :tantrum:

Let me take a crack at some of these questions, but first, a general note: I don't think there's a dragon, but I don't think it's crazy, either. Most of the things you bring up are in the from of "how do we know this" and "how do we know that," but more than anything else I think this theory is based on our lack of knowledge about these subjects. For example,

1. "And has anyone read that dragons in Westeros can hibernate for thousands of years for no good reason at all? And not really mind being burried under castles with no food?"

That is not something that is explicit in ASOIAF. But its not unreasonable for a magical creature to do magical things, like hibernate for thousands of years with no food, and something Osha said about waking sleeping dragons in that chapter in ACoK makes it seem -- while not certain -- reasonable. The argument against this being reasonable is that "dragons have to eat and only live a little while," but we don't know shit about dragons, so we don't really know either of those things to be true. So it's clearly not impossible, or even less likely than any other trait for a dragon to have. It's like if we heard of a blue monster and someone said "the monster can't be a dragon cuz dragons AREN'T BLUE." well. we don't know that.

2. "Or, once released, they can simply vanish into thin air and never be seen by anyone?"

Like Syrio Forel? Or Arya? Or Barristan the Bold? Granted, these are people, but they all disappeared, at least from a certain point of view. Forel in particular has a rather devoted following -- and while I'm not one of those people, I admit that there is enough ambiguity about him that it would not be completely unreasonable to discover that Forel is still alive. In the same way, it is definitely a point against this theory that we haven't heard anything remotely related -- missing sheep, burned cottage, whatever -- since this moment in the series. But it isn't so unreasonable to think that a dragon has better things to do than whatever we presumptive readers would wish upon it. And it didn't get spotted at the initial sighting because, as I've said before, the scene was loud, and hard to see, and whatever it was was gone very quickly.

3. "why would there be a dragon under Winterfell?"

Perhaps it was a tool against the Others in Bran the Builder's day. Perhaps it is the source of -- or the result of, or drawn to -- Winterfell's hot springs. Perhaps it was imprisoned there by the CotF because it burned down weirwoods. Most likely it would be something that we don't understand yet.

Honestly, the reason this theory appeals to me at all is the interesting possible answers to that question. The Starks are not associated with Dragons, but that doesn't mean that some guy who lived 8000 years ago who is allegedly remotely related to the starks had never seen or worked with or had anything to do with a dragon ever. I like to think Brandon the Builder planted it under the First Keep to be accessed if the North ever needed to fight off the others again.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

"Or, once released, they can simply vanish into thin air and never be seen by anyone?"

Like Syrio Forel? Or Arya? Or Barristan the Bold?

Syrio Forel is dead. The other two "vanished" by disguising themselves as other people. If there were a thousand dragons in the skies of Westeros, I could see how one managed to "vanish" in the crowd. But there is no crowd, just our one senile dragon who happened to pick a day to soar over Westeros when everybody was looking at the ground.

[tuthmoses]

Let me take a crack at some of these questions, but first, a general note: I don't think there's a dragon, but I don't think it's crazy, either. Most of the things you bring up are in the from of "how do we know this" and "how do we know that," but more than anything else I think this theory is based on our lack of knowledge about these subjects. For example,

1. "And has anyone read that dragons in Westeros can hibernate for thousands of years for no good reason at all? And not really mind being burried under castles with no food?"

That is not something that is explicit in ASOIAF. But its not unreasonable for a magical creature to do magical things, like hibernate for thousands of years with no food, and something Osha said about waking sleeping dragons in that chapter in ACoK makes it seem -- while not certain -- reasonable. The argument against this being reasonable is that "dragons have to eat and only live a little while," but we don't know shit about dragons, so we don't really know either of those things to be true. So it's clearly not impossible, or even less likely than any other trait for a dragon to have. It's like if we heard of a blue monster and someone said "the monster can't be a dragon cuz dragons AREN'T BLUE." well. we don't know that.

2. "Or, once released, they can simply vanish into thin air and never be seen by anyone?"

Like Syrio Forel? Or Arya? Or Barristan the Bold? Granted, these are people, but they all disappeared, at least from a certain point of view. Forel in particular has a rather devoted following -- and while I'm not one of those people, I admit that there is enough ambiguity about him that it would not be completely unreasonable to discover that Forel is still alive. In the same way, it is definitely a point against this theory that we haven't heard anything remotely related -- missing sheep, burned cottage, whatever -- since this moment in the series. But it isn't so unreasonable to think that a dragon has better things to do than whatever we presumptive readers would wish upon it. And it didn't get spotted at the initial sighting because, as I've said before, the scene was loud, and hard to see, and whatever it was was gone very quickly.

3. "why would there be a dragon under Winterfell?"

Perhaps it was a tool against the Others in Bran the Builder's day. Perhaps it is the source of -- or the result of, or drawn to -- Winterfell's hot springs. Perhaps it was imprisoned there by the CotF because it burned down weirwoods. Most likely it would be something that we don't understand yet.

Honestly, the reason this theory appeals to me at all is the interesting possible answers to that question. The Starks are not associated with Dragons, but that doesn't mean that some guy who lived 8000 years ago who is allegedly remotely related to the starks had never seen or worked with or had anything to do with a dragon ever. I like to think Brandon the Builder planted it under the First Keep to be accessed if the North ever needed to fight off the others again.

good post if I was to put money on it I would say there probably isn't a dragon there but to say there definately isn't is being silly - nobody knows what twists and turns martin has planned. And this is a world of magic and fantasy afterall.

[AHackeySackOfIceAndFire]

Syrio Forel is dead. The other two "vanished" by disguising themselves as other people. If there were a thousand dragons in the skies of Westeros, I could see how one managed to "vanish" in the crowd. But there is no crowd, just our one senile dragon who happened to pick a day to soar over Westeros when everybody was looking at the ground.

It is true, the analogies I made are not exact, and your highly specific interpretation of my analogy would be rather damning if it were not so very specific. The fact is that anything can disappear. The Horn of Joramun disappeared long ago, and it may have reappeared with Sam or Jon. Nymeria disappeared from the royal train down to King's Landing. Sansa disappeared into the Vale, traveling a long way before adopting a new persona. For all we know, the bastard child of Rhaegar and Lyanna might still be alive somewhere in westeros.

I'm not saying at all that these other disappearances prove that there must have been a dragon under Winterfell. I'm merely suggesting that the argument that such a dragon could NOT exist simply because "this other thing MUST have happened," that other thing being a more obvious sighting, that argument is flawed. Things disappear, and are not heard from for long periods of time in some cases.

And if you're speaking about the moment of disappearance, that again is an argument I would respond to with the distinct possibility of other serious distractions, like smoke, fire, exploding stone (not melting, exploding, due to impurities), perhaps bloodshed, maybe looting. After all, the winged snake was only there a moment.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

The fact is that anything can disappear. ... Things disappear, and are not heard from for long periods of time in some cases.

You want us to believe that there were no witnesses to the dragon since it awoke other than Summer. You keep saying that this has happened before. And yet you can't actually show any instances of that. Lots of people have seen Nymeria since she "disappeared" from the royal train. Roose Bolton hears about her, Jaime Lannister hears about her, etc., etc. If you had that kind of proof for a Winterfell dragon, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Your other analogies amount to an argument that dragons can disappear without anybody being aware of it because Sansa dyed her hair and took a new name, or because Ned claimed Jon Snow as his own son, or because the Horn of Joramun--an inanimate object--gathered dust in some wilding's grave. That's a total non sequitur.

The fact is that you can't find precedent in the series for what you're claiming happened to the dragon--in fact, you admitted as much a couple of pages back--because there isn't any. GRRM doesn't write like that. You might as well say that a space ship came roaring out of Winterfell that morning.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I'm not saying at all that these other disappearances prove that there must have been a dragon under Winterfell. I'm merely suggesting that the argument that such a dragon could NOT exist simply because "this other thing MUST have happened," that other thing being a more obvious sighting, that argument is flawed. Things disappear, and are not heard from for long periods of time in some cases.

Talk about flawed arguments! I'm never able to remember the formal names of logical fallacies, but you are very much committing one here. Some things can disappear without a trace-a huge fire breathing dragon is a thing-therefore a huge fire breathing dragon can disappear without a trace. I'm not sure if it's the sloppy syllogism that's the problem or the assumption that a given thing must share a quality with other things...based on what? The basis for dragons NOT falling into the set of 'things that can disappear without a trace' is the specific qualities of huge, fire breathing, flying dragons. They are essentially the single most memorable thing that anyone can imagine, used as a byword for wonder and the spectacular.

And if you're speaking about the moment of disappearance, that again is an argument I would respond to with the distinct possibility of other serious distractions, like smoke, fire, exploding stone (not melting, exploding, due to impurities), perhaps bloodshed, maybe looting. After all, the winged snake was only there a moment.

In that case, there was probably a nuclear explosion at Winterfell and the Winged Snake was it's mushroom cloud. The solidiers present just happened not to notice the detonation because they were distracted by looting, etc. If you're concentrating on looting then no event, no matter how earth shaking, loud, terrifying, awe-inspiring, or visually gripping could possibly compete for your attention.

C'mon. A fire-breathing dragon taking flight would be something everyone...wounded Maester Luwin, Bolton soldiers, Summer, Bran through Summer's eyes...everyone would stop and gape at. Trying to pretend that it could go unnoticed is patently absurd

[Manarius]

How exactly does no one seeing the dragon mean that it doesn't exist? The North is a huge place, much of which is uninhabited. What if it flew north, over the wall? That are is even more sparsely populated, especially with the wildling army assembling.

Also, who would have been there to see it? If I'm remembering correctly, when Summer "saw" the dragon, there was absolutely no one around. Ramsay and co. had already left.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

In the same way, it is definitely a point against this theory that we haven't heard anything remotely related -- missing sheep, burned cottage, whatever -- since this moment in the series. But it isn't so unreasonable to think that a dragon has better things to do than whatever we presumptive readers would wish upon it.

While I'm here, I wanted to address this point as well. Because it's not like we don't know how dragons behave in ASOIAF. We've seen them for several volumes, and we know how they act. They spend a lot of time soaring through the sky, they seek out prey (including people), they like to rest in the sunlight--they are, in short, very visible creatures. They don't hide in caves and avoid the light like a fire-breathing version of J.D. Salinger.

But perhaps this is a special dragon. It is special because Bran the Builder tasked it to defend the Winterfell and the North, according to your theory. And yet it doesn't interact (in any fashion) with the army currently ransacking the North, nor do we have any indication that it flew North to attack the Others (where it would have been witnessed by the brothers of the Night's Watch or by the fifty thousand wildlings marching against the Wall). So if this was Bran the Builder's great plan to defend the North from destruction, then he's a fucking idiot.

Also, who would have been there to see it? If I'm remembering correctly, when Summer "saw" the dragon, there was absolutely no one around. Ramsay and co. had already left.

No. That line occurs while Summer is watching the sack of Winterfell, not afterward. If you'd actually read the thread at one point, you'd have seen that.

[Manarius]

No. That line occurs while Summer is watching the sack of Winterfell, not afterward. If you'd actually read the thread at one point, you'd have seen that.

I'm sorry for not wasting 20 minutes reading through the first 11 pages of this thread?

[Errant Bard]

For reference:

Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of manclaws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone. Behind the cliffs tall fires were eating up the stars.

All through the night the fires crackled, and once there was a great roar and a crash that made the earth jump under his feet. Dogs barked and whined and horses screamed in terror. Howls shuddered through the night; the howls of the man-pack, wails of fear and wild shouts, laughter and screams. No beast was as noisy as man. He pricked up his ears and listened, and his brother growled at every sound. They prowled under the trees as a piney wind blew ashes and embers through the sky. In time the flames began to dwindle, and then they were gone. The sun rose grey and smoky that morning.

Men are there to see anything going on. Summer's eyes are explicitely clouded by "smoke and ashes" when he sees the "dragon". When he blinks, no more "dragon".

I still think that he saw the comet through smoke and ashes, and eventually that the comet has crashed somewhere.

I'm sorry for not wasting 20 minutes reading through the first 11 pages of this thread?

It obviously wouldn't have been a waste, if you're forced to post this.

[Manarius]

It obviously wouldn't have been a waste, if you're forced to post this.

Not really. This way, it took less than 1 minute to find out.