ASOIAF Biggest Scumbag

[wvlr]

Izzo

Quote:

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In no particular order...

Cersei Lannister

Gregor Clegane

Joffrey Baratheon

Amory Lorch

Khal Drogo

Nearly everyone in Drogo's Khalasar

Euron Greyjoy

Theon Greyjoy

Vargo Hoat and his "Brafe Companionth"

The slavers in the entire Ghiscari region

Roose Bolton

Ramsay Bolton

Walder Frey

Jeyne Westerling's mother (can't remember her name)

The turncloaks from the Night's Watch that killed Mormont

Craster (what a vile man)

Jaime Lannister (too little, too late, though I do like him)

Sandor Clegane (still has hope, at least)

Boros Blount

Meryn Trant

Mandon Moore

Arys Oakheart (he did beat Sansa)

Preston Greenfield (if he beat Sansa)

Lancel Lannister

Tywin Lannister

The Tickler

Raff the Sweetling

Rorge

Biter

Catelyn Stark

Lem Lemoncloak

Thoros of Myr and his ilk

Stannis Baratheon

Lysa Arryn

Petyr Baelish

Gerold Dayne

Styr, the Magnar of Thenn

Rattleshirt

Harma Dogshead

The Weeper (snicker)

Melisandre

Pyat Pree and his ilk

Dareon (or whatever his name was, damn singing fucker from Eastwatch)

Alliser Thorne

Janos Slynt

Qyburn

Grand Maester Pycelle

Victarion Greyjoy

Balon Greyjoy

Asha Greyjoy

Aeron Greyjoy

Randyll Tarly

Hyle Hunt and everyone else that played his vile little game

Renly Baratheon

Daenerys Targaryen

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I think you missed a couple, i.e.: J. Mormount, but it is close.

This is such a great series, I just can not pick Just One either.

It is like sticking your hand deep into a pile of rotting garbage and pulling out a hand full of maggots. Then trying to pick the one maggot that is more repulsive than the others. It is impossible!

And GrrM gives each and every one an entirely different personality, some with obvious motivations, some just dirt from square one. Some are even, believably, conflicting with themselves.

I like other authors, but GrrM is THE Master!

[The Marquis de Leech]

Reading through the thread, I feel like I need to play devil's advocate for a number of characters.

Tywin: Yes, he is not a nice man. But here's the thing: in order to be a successful wielder of power, you pretty much have to do unsavory things, since otherwise you won't last long. This is a theme that you meet quite often in famous literature - Shakespeare's "Hamlet" deals with it a bit (Hamlet, like Ned Stark, tries to mix scruples with political scheming, with disasterous results, while Hamlet's usurping uncle mixes an obnoxious personality with competent management). Similarly, in Robert Graves' "I, Claudius" (a book that influenced ASOIAF), Augustus' ruthless scheming wife Livia is seen on a personal level as a villain by her grandson Claudius (who bears some strong similarities with Tyrion), but when Claudius becomes Emperor and becomes confronted with the realities of power, he eventually develops a strong respect for her governing abilities. Had Tywin been "Mr Nice Guy", especially following on from his ineffectual father, he would never have achieved the solid, stable, and efficient regime that he did. This was the guy who maintained peace for two decades during Aerys' reign, putting up with goodness-knows what insults from the increasingly mad King. As for his poor treatment of Tyrion, you have to remember that Tywin associates his dwarf son with the loss of his much-loved wife, and though he neglected Tyrion's emotional needs, Tywin still has enough appreciation of his son's intellectual abilities to appoint him as acting Hand.

Theon: He's a prat, not a monster. Theon, feeling the need to prove himself to his cold and slightly mad father, and through clever use of tactics, manages to take Winterfell. Then, to his credit, he actually tries to be a decent ruler, before falling victim to the evil machinations of Ramsay Bolton (it is worth remembering that Theon could have simply burnt Winterfell immediately and taken Bran and Rickon back to Pyke, as Asha indeed later suggests, but Theon tries to play fair with the Northerners). As for Theon being a traitor to the Stark cause, Theon is a Greyjoy, not a Stark, and Robb had only himself to blame for sending Theon home (Catelyn had enough sense to realise that). And finally there's the Captain's daughter thing, which was actually a two-way street. Yes, Theon was only using the Captain's daughter for sex, and couldn't care less about her feelings. On the other hand, the Captain's daughter also had ulterior motives - she was trying to use Theon as an escape route from her life on the ship. The fact that Theon was the heir of Balon Greyjoy would not have escaped her either - power, as they say, is the ultimate aphrodisiac, and even someone like the Captain's daughter would have enough sense to recognise the potential of pleasing a person like Theon.

Littlefinger: He told Ned Stark not to trust him. Several times, in fact. But Ned went ahead and trusted him anyway. When Ned then sealed his own fate with his two huge stuff-ups - his refusal to accept Renly's offer and his little talk with Cersei, Littlefinger, quite understandably, saw which way the wind was blowing, and chose to be on the winning side. Manipulation of those in power is all Littlefinger has to fall back on - unlike the Starks, Lannisters, and the Baratheons, Littlefinger has no great power base or armies of his own (he is Lord of Harenhall in name only), and when you combine that with his lack any sort of personal fighting ability (which Brandon proved early in Littlefinger's life), it is clear that Littlefinger must make his way by his wits, which by extension implies putting cunning above scruples. He does at least deserve some credit though for trying to keep the realm financially solvent throughout the disasterous reign of Robert.

Roose Bolton: Ah yes, Roose. A character who inspires a certain morbid fascination, what with his twisted combination of book-smartness, street-smartness, hypochrondria, courtousness, cunning and cruelty. Bolton is faced with the task of being an effective mid-level lord; like Tywin (and unlike Littlefinger) he has a significant power-base in his own right, and so must be a competent political "manager", but like Littlefinger (and unlike Tywin), Roose still has a political hierarchy above him, so he must also be a competent political "manipulator". The result is a character who has to demand the strict obediance of those below him (to solidify the power he does have), while keeping his options open vis-a-vis his political superiors (to look for opportunities to increase that power). When Robb demonstrated his political naievity and vulnerability, Bolton, understandably, pounced, achieving what his family had always historically tried to do, namely, bringing down the Starks, and asserting their own power over the North.

[Reighnhell]

Good Points. But we aren't talking effective rulership, political cunning, ambition, or opportunism. We are talking the basic milk of human decency, which all the above mentioned had nary a drop. A successful, powerful scumbag ....is still a scumbag.

[Laron]

Actually i think we meet so many different scumbags, that you just can't order them in one dimension. How about a three dimensional grid?

x = brutality: Hard to beat Biter here, though i have doubts if he is actually human. Gregor and Rorge are a close second and third.

y = sophistication: IMHO, being evil while looking nice is worse than being a monster yourself. Littlefinger beats Tywin Lannister in looking like a nice guy.

z = power: Hard to be bad if you are listed as "second farmer killed by Raff the Sweetling" in the credits. Tywin Lannister held this prize long enough, at the moment things are a bit confused.

Let's scale each axis from 0 to 10 and set a few markers:

Gregor: x=9.9, y=1 (he used tools...), z=5 (landed knight with small personal army) Score: 49,5 cubic evils

Walder Frey: x=7 (a bit torn here. at least he did not drink any blood or something), y=7, z=8 Score: 392 cubic evils

Bloody Mummers: x=8.5 , y=1, z=4

Qyburn: x=9 (torturing is just one of his talents) y=7 z=6 Score:378 cubic evils

To reach the full score of 1000, we would need a nice and well-loved king who enjoys his evenings in the black cells, where he discovers new and interesting kinds of torture. Too bad that Joff died so young.

Incidently, with this method we find that the nicest person is gentle, dumb and without power over others. HODOR!

[Nine of Spades]

Reading through the thread, I feel like I need to play devil's advocate for a number of characters.

Tywin: Yes, he is not a nice man. But here's the thing: in order to be a successful wielder of power, you pretty much have to do unsavory things, since otherwise you won't last long. This is a theme that you meet quite often in famous literature - Shakespeare's "Hamlet" deals with it a bit (Hamlet, like Ned Stark, tries to mix scruples with political scheming, with disasterous results, while Hamlet's usurping uncle mixes an obnoxious personality with competent management). Similarly, in Robert Graves' "I, Claudius" (a book that influenced ASOIAF), Augustus' ruthless scheming wife Livia is seen on a personal level as a villain by her grandson Claudius (who bears some strong similarities with Tyrion), but when Claudius becomes Emperor and becomes confronted with the realities of power, he eventually develops a strong respect for her governing abilities. Had Tywin been "Mr Nice Guy", especially following on from his ineffectual father, he would never have achieved the solid, stable, and efficient regime that he did. This was the guy who maintained peace for two decades during Aerys' reign, putting up with goodness-knows what insults from the increasingly mad King. As for his poor treatment of Tyrion, you have to remember that Tywin associates his dwarf son with the loss of his much-loved wife, and though he neglected Tyrion's emotional needs, Tywin still has enough appreciation of his son's intellectual abilities to appoint him as acting Hand.

He had his sons wife brutally gang raped in front of his son. I find it unbelievable that people would defend him. Hes a monster, and Im just sorry his death wasnt more painful.

Theon: He's a prat, not a monster. Theon, feeling the need to prove himself to his cold and slightly mad father, and through clever use of tactics, manages to take Winterfell. Then, to his credit, he actually tries to be a decent ruler, before falling victim to the evil machinations of Ramsay Bolton (it is worth remembering that Theon could have simply burnt Winterfell immediately and taken Bran and Rickon back to Pyke, as Asha indeed later suggests, but Theon tries to play fair with the Northerners). As for Theon being a traitor to the Stark cause, Theon is a Greyjoy, not a Stark, and Robb had only himself to blame for sending Theon home (Catelyn had enough sense to realise that). And finally there's the Captain's daughter thing, which was actually a two-way street. Yes, Theon was only using the Captain's daughter for sex, and couldn't care less about her feelings. On the other hand, the Captain's daughter also had ulterior motives - she was trying to use Theon as an escape route from her life on the ship. The fact that Theon was the heir of Balon Greyjoy would not have escaped her either - power, as they say, is the ultimate aphrodisiac, and even someone like the Captain's daughter would have enough sense to recognise the potential of pleasing a person like Theon.

I agree hes just a callow and callous youth. Not someone I would want to hang around, but hes not a monster like the others.

Littlefinger: He told Ned Stark not to trust him. Several times, in fact. But Ned went ahead and trusted him anyway. When Ned then sealed his own fate with his two huge stuff-ups - his refusal to accept Renly's offer and his little talk with Cersei, Littlefinger, quite understandably, saw which way the wind was blowing, and chose to be on the winning side. Manipulation of those in power is all Littlefinger has to fall back on - unlike the Starks, Lannisters, and the Baratheons, Littlefinger has no great power base or armies of his own (he is Lord of Harenhall in name only), and when you combine that with his lack any sort of personal fighting ability (which Brandon proved early in Littlefinger's life), it is clear that Littlefinger must make his way by his wits, which by extension implies putting cunning above scruples. He does at least deserve some credit though for trying to keep the realm financially solvent throughout the disasterous reign of Robert.

Well, he shoved his very mad wife to her death, framed a man for said murder, and seems to be angling to have his sickly stepson die expediently. Littlefinger isnt in the class of the others though.

Roose Bolton: Ah yes, Roose. A character who inspires a certain morbid fascination, what with his twisted combination of book-smartness, street-smartness, hypochrondria, courtousness, cunning and cruelty. Bolton is faced with the task of being an effective mid-level lord; like Tywin (and unlike Littlefinger) he has a significant power-base in his own right, and so must be a competent political "manager", but like Littlefinger (and unlike Tywin), Roose still has a political hierarchy above him, so he must also be a competent political "manipulator". The result is a character who has to demand the strict obediance of those below him (to solidify the power he does have), while keeping his options open vis-a-vis his political superiors (to look for opportunities to increase that power). When Robb demonstrated his political naievity and vulnerability, Bolton, understandably, pounced, achieving what his family had always historically tried to do, namely, bringing down the Starks, and asserting their own power over the North.

Roose's son kidnapped, married, then killed a widowed lady. I suspect with his fathers approval, but who knows. Ill leave him a slight pass here because nothing is certain, but if you want to get all snuggly with him go ahead, I doubt youll find him a redeemable man. I wont call him a monster yet though.

[Wouter]

Dany was going to unleash an entire Khalasar upon Westeros, which, I imagine, would be the equivalent of a few hundred companies of Brave Companions, only more competent.

As for Catelyn and Thoros... did you actually read AFfC? If you did, I suggest going back and reading the final Brienne chapter again.

I did read AFFC, and lady Stoneheart is very hard but not anywhere in Gregor's league. Her band was still protecting those children at the crossroads, and the men that they hanged would have equally hanged men of BwB had the situation been reversed - eye for an eye and all that. Randy Tarly is at least as bad as lady Stoneheart then, even if we don't consider the treatment that he gave his son. Jaime also hanged outlaws without a second thought.

As for Thoros, he actually seems one the more decent people around. Did you read the final Brienne chapter well, concerning Thoros? He's not a bad guy at all.

Dany wasn't going to unleash a whole Khalasar I suppose, only part of it. Would have been very bad though - I doubt she could have kept them even halfway in check. I also doubt that she really realised what the Dothraki would do to the seven kingdoms, she seemed to close her eyes to much of the Dothraki brutality (her attempt to save a few raped women excepted, but her request to Drogo to attack westeros came long before that).

[High Septon]

I agree with RBPL about Tywin: Sure, he's a bastard. But he's a good ruler, and unlike, say, Littlefinger, he's also a moral ruler. A twisted moral, to be sure, but he does care about justice and peace and has a notion about how a good king should be.

I think that makes it easier to hate characters like him and Stannis than Gregor or Ramsay, who are scums and sort of know it. Tywin has an aura of self-righteousness around him, which adds extra spice to the brew.

Strangely, I've always hated the pitiable characters most. I cheered out loud when Viserys and Lysa died. But at the same time I felt a bit sorry for them.

Qyburn is an interesting alternative. The comparison with Mengele is good, but I'm not as disgusted by his (seemingly) cold detachement as I am by Gregor's brutal sadism.

And Ramsay is everything Gregor is, and slimy besides. So he gets my vote.

[BastardSword]

I think there are different types of evil, and so to say who is 'most evil' I have to qualify the type in giving out the Westerosi Worst Awards, also known as the Meanies.

For big, dumb, destructive evil, I would say Gregor is worse than the first runner up, Biter, because Gregor is a KNIGHT. One might be forgiven for expecting better behavior in a knight than a monster extracted from the black cells.

For insane, not playing with a full deck evil, Qyburn. Sure, he doesn't seem ratty-ass crazy, but he's the proverbial 'mad scientist.' He should have lost his head along with the chain. Runner up though his career was cut short before he could demonstrate how nuts he was: Viserys. (If the awards include people already dead when the series started of course Aerys would win--the "Mad" in his title is the giveaway.)

For textbook sociopathy, yes, this one is Joff's right down to shooting kittens with a crossbow. Runner up: Ramsey Snow Bolton. I'm sure there are flayed kittens in his memory book. (Arya Stark, depending on what happens to her from here on out, has been taking a correspondence course in Acquired Sociopathy and may end up one if not redeemed.)

For classical, Miltonesque-Satanic evil ("Better to reign in hell than serve in heaven") in which there is a malignant intelligence hell bent on advancing its own goal of ultimate superiority no matter what has to be done, yes, Tywin Lannister gets the little gold statuette of Iago, for reasons ably described above. Runner up: Littlefinger.

Roose Bolton's got the temperament for this classification, but as far as we know he doesn't aspire to rule all of Westeros. He's like the low budget version.

Tyrion, Tywin's true son, has the potential for it too, if the decency and mercy that are also part of his character end up being extinguished by his bitterness over his fate.

As for where Jaime Lannister belongs on this list--I don't think Jaime was so much evil as he was impulsive, ruled by emotions (and the 'little head.') Cersei herself says to him YOU NEVER THINK. For all that he is a big strong 'golden man', he was basically in emotional thrall to Cersei from birth on. "Circe" (pronounced SERSEE) was a Greek enchantress who turned men into swine. Jaime had no real self apart from Circe until he lost his hand, and the process of his distancing himself from her is the process of his finally finding, in his mid-30s, a self that doesn't relate to her. I don't believe if he had the stuff to win in any of the above "Meanie" categories he would have been a candidate for moral rehabilitation (of course he could still backslide before the fat lady [Lollys?] sings.)

Try to imagine any of the other "winners" above undergoing redemption:

Gregor (or whatever he is now), to atone for killing and raping especially children, turns his castle into a model orphanage.

Biter becomes a vegan. (Oops he's daid, as are Vis and Joff).

Qyburn realizes wow, the other maesters were right it is WRONG to cut up live people to see what makes them tick, and opens a free clinic in KL to use his healing skills for the living.

Tywin, in the 10 seconds between when the quarrel hits him and he dies poopily, concludes it is NOT good for your children's character development to teach them it's OK to do ANYTHING to get what you want. (Not that he may not have had that revelation, but I'm sure it was more in the nature of surprise that for Tyrion ANYTHING would include patricide.)

Littlefinger comes to genuinely LOVE Sansa/Alayne as a daughter and realize loving and being loved is more important than gaining and wielding power.

YAH SURE.

[Colder Hands]

it is GRRM himself. for making us wait so long for him to finish his series. i appreciate his passion for life but is anyone else selfish and want him to lock himself up and work til all are done? come on GRRM daddy needs a new book

[Ser Hot Pie]

Gregor Clegane (the scene where he raped the innkeeper's daughter - as told in flashback- made me hate him for all time).

Ramsey Bolton (there was an anecdtote that implied that after Ramsey was through raping his victim, he would kill her and let Reek screw the corpse - AAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!).

Gregor Clegane again (sack of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion - please don't make me recount the details).

Joffrey (no one in the series deserved their fate more than he).

Tywin Lannister (come on - who doesn't hate Tywin).

Catelyn Stark (because of her irrational hatered - yes, I said irrational- of Jon Snow, my favorite character - besides Hot Pie that is )

Vargo Hoat (he thimply thucks).

Cersei (although it's almost kind of hard to hate someone that stupid).

And finally, Jaime (I will never forgive him from throwing Bran - my second favorite character - from the window, no matter how cheeky his POVs are).

[wutru]

I cast my vote for the Mad King Aerys.

Kingslayer or not, Jaime had no choice.

[Colder Hands]

I cast my vote for the Mad King Aerys.

Kingslayer or not, Jaime had no choice.

thats what i don't get. why is jaime not a hero for his actions instead of such a low life? the guy was burning people alive for no real reason. jaime did what he had to for the realm. and yet the world views him as a disease.

[Faceless Man]

thats what i don't get. why is jaime not a hero for his actions instead of such a low life? the guy was burning people alive for no real reason. jaime did what he had to for the realm. and yet the world views him as a disease.

I am forced to agree with the voice in my head

[Colder Hands]

I am forced to agree with the voice in my head

lol

[RWHamel]

I agree hes just a callow and callous youth. Not someone I would want to hang around, but hes not a monster like the others.

So you don't find the murder of the miller's sons to pass off as Bran and Rickon monstrous? :sick:

[Colder Hands]

So you don't find the murder of the miller's sons to pass off as Bran and Rickon monstrous? :sick:

thats one of those things that gets a free pass since we are relieved the stark boys are still alive.

[Enoch]

Littlefinger comes to genuinely LOVE Sansa/Alayne as a daughter and realize loving and being loved is more important than gaining and wielding power.

Actually, the way I see it, the critical thing for Littlefinger would be if he ever figured out that loving is different from being loved, and that sometimes the things one does in order to be loved - e.g. amass and wield power - are scummy, self-defeating and not worth it.

[Colder Hands]

Actually, the way I see it, the critical thing for Littlefinger would be if he ever figured out that loving is different from being loved, and that sometimes the things one does in order to be loved - e.g. amass and wield power - are scummy, self-defeating and not worth it.

who are you? Dr. Phil?

[Enoch]

who are you? Dr. Phil?

I don't know who he is. I just like to draw distinctions where I see them.

[Jesatria]

Tywin Lannister (cue Tywin defenders). He has more power, more potential than everyone else mentioned. More opportunities to do things right. He has the intelligence, wealth, influence. Smart as Littlefinger, proud as Walder Frey, tactical cunning above everyone, resources (wealth, bannerman) equal to or above everyone, and still he is a cruel, heartless bastard.

Systemic raping of Tyrion's first wife. The callous use of "tools" such as Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch, knowing full well what blunt objects they are. Condoning the rape of murder of Elia of Dorne. The brutal sacking of King's Landing.

Are these simply the necessary mechanications to bring peace to the land? His defenders would argue that. But Tywin takes it all further than necessary. He takes a pleasure in his brutality, I guarantee it. As bad as Gregor Clegane is, it is Tywin that allows him to be so.

Amen to that! Although Tyrion killing Tywin was poetic & wonderful, he should've lived to fall into Doran's hands. And we knew Doran wasn't content w/ merely killing him, oh no. He wanted to destroy Tywin. That would've been highly appropriate.

So here's my list:

Pure Evil:

Gregor-My most hated character in the series. If anyone deserved to die an extremely painful death from poison, it's this fucker.

Amory Lorch

The Goat & the other Brave Companions-although they could be amusing sometimes, they are still a bunch of evil sadistic fuckers who deserve to die

Ramsay Bolton-Hopefully he'll be flayed

Joffrey-He got off too easy. I wanted him to suffer. His death was altogether too quick

The Slavers in Astapor-I felt physically ill when I read the chapter describing the Unsullied. Their blatant disregard for human life is truely vile. I cheered when Dany roasted their asses. They deserved every second of it

Craster

Insanity (or Possible Insanity):

Aerys

Viserys

Qyburn-he IS a mad scientist type

Euron-I am eagerly awaiting his death. Hopefully it'll be painful.

Not Quite Evil, But Pretty Close:

Tywin-I despise this man w/ every fiber of my being.

Littlefinger-he may be interesting & amusing, but he deserves to die for starting the whole war & throwing away countless lives to advance himself. The fact that he just doesn't seem to care about that at all makes him truely vile.

Roose Bolton

Walder Frey

Cersei

Randyll Tarly