FMLA: Once again America is rather behind the times

[Galactus]

Actually, in that particular case rich people in the US might very well be willing to help: Americans as a rule are generous.

It's just that these things are systemic, not individual, what is needed isn't a gathering of goodwill now and then, but a system that deals with and protects those who need help; Every minute of the day, everywhere. Charity just doesen't have the kind of staying power that a bureaucratic institution does. It is to reliant on sentiment (not to mention bias) It's not that americans do not have the resources, or even the generosity, it is that (and please don't take this the wrong way) the attention span of charity is too short.

[potsherds]

Actually, in that particular case rich people in the US might very well be willing to help: Americans as a rule are generous.

It's just that these things are systemic, not individual, what is needed isn't a gathering of goodwill now and then, but a system that deals with and protects those who need help; Every minute of the day, everywhere. Charity just doesen't have the kind of staying power that a bureaucratic institution does. It is to reliant on sentiment (not to mention bias) It's not that americans do not have the resources, or even the generosity, it is that (and please don't take this the wrong way) the attention span of charity is too short.

I agree completely.

[Minaku]

Minaku,

That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is: a lot of people in the US are completely without security nets and go bankrupt for things that are not even disasters in a European country. Like for instance a C-section with some complications. Here this won't cost you a penny extra and you don't have to worry yourself sick about whether you can afford it or not.

I don't see any rich people in the US saying "Oh I can pay to save poor Pamela from bankruptcy due to the C-section and the complications".

To be completely honest, I don't think I would have dared having a child in the US, as any type of complications would most likely have lead to financial ruin for me and my husband. I don't like taking that type of risk.

That's gotta be one hell of a C-section and complications to drive you to bankruptcy. You are assuming that if you had a kid in the US, you'd be slammed with hundreds of thousands of dollars of cost. That happens if you don't have medical insurance. Seeing as both you and your husband are healthy people, you'd qualify for health insurance, that is, if it's not already provided to you through your workplace, and then having that extra stuff during pregnancy would be covered, with low cost to you.

The problem is the people who are uninsured, who are underpaid and overworked, who also get pregnant. Perhaps those are the only people we should be providing paid maternity leave to?

The US is not completely without security nets. Again, check the govbenefits.gov link above. There are many programs for assisted housing, health care and health insurance for uninsured children, for people with debilitating diseases, etc. I'm sure quite a few of them are inefficiently run. If we got rid of those, and took the money we spent and put that towards a national parental leave incentive instead, I'd be on that wagon.

Edit: When I was little my mother tried out government food stamps. She hated it so much that she got herself out of that income bracket as soon as she could.

[Balefont]

In RI you can apply for state medical insurance if you are pregnant and make under a certain amount of $$$. I had to use this option as I was only 19 and not a full time student. A healthy birth alond can run up to $17,000. Everything was 100% covered under the state medical plan.

Then I worked my ass off to never need that type of assistance again. Through hard work, determination and LUCK I've not only been able to take care of mine and my family's needs but also give back to the state through my income taxes what the state has provided me.

My sister in law however... :sick: She's on child #3 and baby-daddy #2 is in jail for the next few years. She's also a stripper when she's not knocked up and obviously doesn't pay any taxes on her tips. She's pregnant again because she uses every excuse in the book why she can't do something about preventing it while I've done what I needed to do for the past 11 years to avoid getting pregnant again. Why? Cuz I haven't been able to afford it, mostly. :P

[Minaku]

In RI you can apply for state medical insurance if you are pregnant and make under a certain amount of $$$. I had to use this option as I was only 19 and not a full time student. A healthy birth alond can run up to $17,000. Everything was 100% covered under the state medical plan.

Then I worked my ass off to never need that type of assistance again. Through hard work, determination and LUCK I've not only been able to take care of mine and my family's needs but also give back to the state through my income taxes what the state has provided me.

My sister in law however... :sick: She's on child #3 and baby-daddy #2 is in jail for the next few years. She's also a stripper when she's not knocked up and obviously doesn't pay any taxes on her tips. She's pregnant again because she uses every excuse in the book why she can't do something about preventing it while I've done what I needed to do for the past 11 years to avoid getting pregnant again. Why? Cuz I haven't been able to afford it, mostly. :P

She should get herself a reality TV deal, that'll pay her expenses and then some. Then she can wear Juicy Couture around and have a driver - that's the American dream!

[Balefont]

She should get herself a reality TV deal, that'll pay her expenses and then some. Then she can wear Juicy Couture around and have a driver - that's the American dream!

I wonder if her made-up names of her kids will create a naming sensation like the name Dylan from 90210. (Javari, Jenea, and Justoria) <gag>

[Filippa Eilhart]

what about if you're not healthy and have a child? do you still qualify for insurance? I've heard horror stories about people being denied insurance because of pre-existing condition.

[Minaku]

what about if you're not healthy and have a child? do you still qualify for insurance? I've heard horror stories about people being denied insurance because of pre-existing condition.

I'm not entirely sure. If you're not healthy, then getting pregnant is likely not the best option for you anyway. You may have risks to you and your child. It really depends on what the guidelines are from state to state.

[snake]

That's all well and good, but the fact of the matter is: a lot of people in the US are completely without security nets and go bankrupt for things that are not even disasters in a European country. Like for instance a C-section with some complications. Here this won't cost you a penny extra and you don't have to worry yourself sick about whether you can afford it or not.

In the study I linked earlier it states that the likelihood of something like this happening(the need for a C-section that is) increases if you do not have paid maternity leave as does chance that the child will be underweight and less healthy in the weeks following birth.

[Balefont]

what about if you're not healthy and have a child? do you still qualify for insurance? I've heard horror stories about people being denied insurance because of pre-existing condition.

My friend is pregnant and is on state disability now. Before she was pregnant she qualified for disability (I've forgotten what her disability is called but it was created when her mother was giving birth to her and her oxygen was cut off from her brain long enough to cause brain damage. She's perfectly functional from a mental perspective but she cannot walk like regular people do -- her leg muscles don't expand and contract properly). Her disability made her very prone to falling while walking which is obviously very dangerous for a pregnant woman.

Now that she is pregnant, she's on leave from work (they are holding her position for a year, unpaid) and she's collecting on disability. Not sure when/if she'll return within the year.

ETA:Cerebral Palsey: Diplegia

[Galactus]

The problem with private health insurance is precisely that denies care to those who need it the most: Those who are sick and require help. It's a really good deal if you are healthy and have no pre-existing conditions though, but not all people are that lucky. (and yes, I know the US government to some degree helps cover that)

[Balefont]

Also, in defense of my friend, she's a wonderful person. She deserves to be a mother. Just because she has a pre-existing, non-genetic disability should not mean the option is not open to her. She has enough bullshit in life to deal with than to be judged for being on disability and being pregnant.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Ask and ye shall receive.

Hmm...murder statistics. So it is your position then that murder rates are directly linked to paid as opposed to unpaid maternity leave? People will be shutting the hell up about gun control then? :rolleyes:

Is this just a personality thing? Because I don't get it. Nobody is perfectly self-sufficient. We all use government services. I just don't get why it's controversial to cost-share letting mothers physically recuperate from birth and giving new parents a small amount of time to bond with a new baby, any more so than we fund roads, or college education, or anything else.

I hope everyone who's addicted to this self-sufficiency myth turned down not only government aid for education, but also interest-free loans.

Present and accounted for.

In the study I linked earlier it states that the likelihood of something like this happening(the need for a C-section that is) increases if you do not have paid maternity leave as does chance that the child will be underweight and less healthy in the weeks following birth.

Thank you for bringing rationality to an otherwise emotion fueled debate.

[Minaku]

Also, in defense of my friend, she's a wonderful person. She deserves to be a mother. Just because she has a pre-existing, non-genetic disability should not mean the option is not open to her. She has enough bullshit in life to deal with than to be judged for being on disability and being pregnant.

It sounds like your friend will be taken care of, which is great. If we had paid parental leave, she'd get that on top of disability as well.

[The Iceman of the North]

Hmm...murder statistics. So it is your position then that murder rates are directly linked to paid as opposed to unpaid maternity leave?

It's my position that murder/crime rates are linked to the level of the social safety net which maternity leave plays an important part.

[Minaku]

In the study I linked earlier it states that the likelihood of something like this happening(the need for a C-section that is) increases if you do not have paid maternity leave as does chance that the child will be underweight and less healthy in the weeks following birth.

I went and looked at the link, and nowhere does it state that paid maternity leave reduces the need for a C-section. I am not a doctor, but I'm not sure how those two would be correlated, and I am definitely sure that paid maternity leave does not have a causative effect on whether or not a C-section is performed. What I did see is that paid maternity leave for a short to moderate period of time, but not a long period of time, has a correlation with more positive workforce turnout (whether that is productivity or happiness) and better infant health (makes sense, if the mother is there to provide food and comfort, infants will naturally do better).

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It's my position that murder/crime rates are linked to the level of the social safety net which maternity leave plays an important part.

Not an answer, you provided those statistics in response to a question showing the positive results of paid maternity leave. If you don't believe that unpaid maternity leave leads to murder, say so. If you believe it does lead to murder, say so. "Maternity leave as part of a large holistic social safety net" is so vague as to be useless as evidence.

So far the only positive effects of maternity leave have been shown by Snake, whose studied linked paid maternity leave with a small reduction in C-Sections, infant mortality, and low birth weight.

[Tyria]

Just curious, but what percentage of your income goes to the government in other countries? I was going to start another thread, but it kinda fits here. I guess I'm looking for a comparison as to what is paid out as to what you get out of it for the type of services being discussed here. Would taxes have to increase so dramatically to have better funding in certain areas? eta: to have the same level of these services that other countries have.

Now, I'm talking about what you get deducted every pay cheque, not what income you are left with after tax season and can do the tax dance to get a bunch back. I'm not talking about all deductions like what you pay for private insurance or private pension plans, just what goes to the government. For example, every pay I have a bunch of deductions for Canada Pension, Employment Insurance, and Federal and Provincial taxes all of which goes into government coffers. Not to mention the sales tax on pretty much everything, but that's something else too.

So, what's it like elsewhere?

[Commodore]

The problem is that 12 weeks is UNPAID. I don't know a single person who could go 12 weeks without some sort of income. There really should be some sort of paid leave.

If it's a sticking point for you, ask for it as a stipulation in your employment agreement.

FMLA is grossly abused. At the factory where I work, we can't maintain any kind of continuity because people come off and on from FMLA constantly (often for dubious conditions), and you can't replace them because you can't fire them. It creates all sorts of morale problems because the people who don't abuse it resent those that do and have to pick up all the slack.

Medical leave is something that can be a benefit in an employment contract that you negotiate for, just like any other benefit.

[Minaku]

Okay, I looked at the OTHER article that was linked - not the research reviews done by people in NZ - and I have to say one thing. C-sections are on the rise here in the US. Women are getting C-sections for medically unnecessary reasons, or healthcare staff get impatient. So you'll have to take into account the number of women who have planned C-sections (whether for convenience or for a medical issue, such as diabetes) versus the number of women who end up having C-sections because vaginal birth is impossible (breach position, umbilical cord wrapped around baby's neck, etc.).

Taking leave before my due date was an option to me, but as I prefer having money as opposed to not, I didn't take that option.