Syrio Forel =/= Jaquen

[SFDanny]

The improbabilities compound each other.

They do. I don't want to underestimate the difficulty of Syrio beating Trant. The odds are long. I just want to point out that to use the fact he doesn't have wounds when we next see him is not proof that such a scenario doesn't take place.

[Serc]

Are the odds truly that long? Syrio was unarmored, able to move faster away, and could have picked up a sword off one of the people he had killed so Matrix like, no?

Regardless, if Syrio isn't Jaqen/Pate, and he's alive, he seems to me to be very insignificant. I doubt there will be another epic meeting of Arya and someone, like she did with Sam.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Are the odds truly that long? Syrio was unarmored, able to move faster away, and could have picked up a sword off one of the people he had killed so Matrix like, no?

Yes, they truly are that long. Being completely unarmoured hurts Syrio's chance of survival. Sure he's fast and can (and did) dodge sword strikes. But he also failed to dodge when Meryn lopped his stick in twain. So he cannot dodge every single blow, that's been demonstrated right there. And all it takes is one solid hit and he's dead meat, thanks to that utter lack of armour.

Could he manage to snatch up a sword from a fallen guard? Conceivably. Do it while continuing to avoid getting chopped in half, when he's already hard-pressed? Much less likely. Then proceed to continue to avoid getting chopped in half, when Meryn keeps swinging at him again and again and again? Well, that's easier if he has a steel sword to parry with, but swords still don't cut through plate. Manage to injure Trant somehow, through a gap in his armour (somewhere other than the vision slit), all while not getting chopped in half by Trant? Much less likely still. Successfully accomplishing all that and not killing Trant to guarantee he doesn't call for more guardsmen? Astonishingly improbable, especially coming from someone from such a bloodthirsty dueling background as a bravo; men who fight to the death over such trivial issues as which courtesan is most beautiful.

There's so many different variations on 'Syrio lives' that it's advocates frequently summon up a different version of it to address a problem in the version currently being argued, such as Syrio being a FM and thus free to run away, unhindered by the convictions of Syrio's character...often with "What you keep forgetting is...". Of course, nobodies forgetting that. It's just that every last one of these variations has it's own virtually insurmountable set of problems, Syrio being a FM suffering rather worse than the others in that respect. It's all been dealt with exhaustively in the threads linked earlier.

SFDanny,

I just want to point out that to use the fact he doesn't have wounds when we next see him is not proof that such a scenario doesn't take place.

It does bear repeating though, that the single easiest way for Syrio to have injured Trant has demonstrably not happened. All of the gaps in his plate armour would very probably have had additional chainmail armour underneath, and padded gambesons and such below that (see Lucas Inchfield again)..with the exception of the vision slit of his helmet. But we know conclusively that Trant has not been stabbed in the eyes.

[Dragon Madness]

I agree with WeirGhost. Re-reading posts that other people have debated thoroughly is not at all interactive. Where is the fun in that? To put someone in there place because they are passionate about a subject in ASOFAI, not matter what it is, is extremely insipid.

It is all just fun and talk. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not writing these books. Everyone has the exact same data as the next fellow. So, just because certain people have debated and talked about this series for years and have come to there own conclusions... it was fun right? Let new people experience the same thing. And even if they do have crack pot theories. It is still fun for them to talk... Hell, just because you know Santa Claus is not real, are you going to wreck the fun of a kid during x-mas morning because you feel they are ignorant.

When the next book gets released and we all read it. We all can read how truly ignorant we all were here, with how Martin's vision for this series will go...

[Jon Targaryen]

Determined? No, like all things having to do with the timeline there are questions.

I'm sorry if that seemed like I was calling you out. "Determined" was probably poor diction; I just knew you are involved in timeline stuff and was curious about the distance.

I'd also point out that I was using different markers. If we use the time from Cersei's coup to the scene on the battlements that is likely about twice as long. As far as I know, the first time we see Trant after his confrontation with Syrio is in the first court session of Joffrey's reign. That is when Sansa pleads for mercy for her father, and when Ser Barristan has his cloak taken from him. Trant's appearance isn't commented upon, but the fact he is there is.

Ah, I used the battlement scene because that is the first time I could read of us actually seeing Trant. I thought that we wouldn't use the Barristan stripping scene as it doesn't mention Trant specifically, just that all KG except Jaime were there, but I suppose Sansa would have noted it if Trant were heavily injured.

[mormont]

I agree with WeirGhost. Re-reading posts that other people have debated thoroughly is not at all interactive. Where is the fun in that? To put someone in there place because they are passionate about a subject in ASOFAI, not matter what it is, is extremely insipid.

It is all just fun and talk. Nothing more, nothing less. We are not writing these books. Everyone has the exact same data as the next fellow. So, just because certain people have debated and talked about this series for years and have come to there own conclusions... it was fun right? Let new people experience the same thing. And even if they do have crack pot theories. It is still fun for them to talk... Hell, just because you know Santa Claus is not real, are you going to wreck the fun of a kid during x-mas morning because you feel they are ignorant.

When the next book gets released and we all read it. We all can read how truly ignorant we all were here, with how Martin's vision for this series will go...

In case there's any doubt, this subject - that is, whether people should repeat earlier discussions for their own pleasure - is closed. The FAQ addresses it, a moderator has given a full answer earlier in the thread, everyone has been asked to drop it, so please do. Any further posts on the topic will be deleted, as it is threatening to derail the thread. If you really, really have an urgent opinion on it that you must express then PM a mod or open a thread in the Help forum.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Ah, I used the battlement scene because that is the first time I could read of us actually seeing Trant. I thought that we wouldn't use the Barristan stripping scene as it doesn't mention Trant specifically, just that all KG except Jaime were there, but I suppose Sansa would have noted it if Trant were heavily injured.

Trant was mentioned specifically:

"Finally he drew his sword.

Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt."

So your last part definitely applies and them some. Not only is Ser Meryn present, and not visibly hobbling about with crutches or an arm in a sling or such, but he's even feeling hale enough to try to take on Barristan the Bold (only to lose his nerve under his withering glare).

[Jon Targaryen]

Trant was mentioned specifically:

"Finally he drew his sword.

Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt."

Ah, I didn't read that line.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Btw, here's another little bit that may or may not have been tossed onto the pile in the past:

Arms and words of House Trant.

House Trant of Gallowsgrey - A hanged man, black on blue

Words: "So End Our Foes."

Not claiming it to be conclusive or anything, but it does say something about the Trant family attitude toward treatment of enemies who are at their mercy: they don't let them live. Insofar as house words can be said to indicate any sort of family ideology or traditions, this one...and let's face it, the only Trant we know is Meryn, so he must have played a part in GRRM's invention of the arms and motto...suggests a definite lack of mercy.

[Ser Sapper]

As for Trant, it's Margery who say's he's old and slow. I for one don't doubt that Syrio, the first sword of Braavos, could dance around an old, slow man in full plate armor all day long. And we all know that the first sword of Braavos does not run, but we all know that he didn't live so long by being stupid either. If Syrio managed to dance around Trant for a long enough head start, he wouldn't have stuck around to die. Just so.

My question is, how did Jaquen know Arya's name in Harrenhall?

[Szar]

My question is, how did Jaquen know Arya's name in Harrenhall?

Arya is a noble who stayed in King's Landing for quite some time. Jaqen isn't stupid. He put two and two together. That's all that's required there.

[Ser Sapper]

Arya is a noble who stayed in King's Landing for quite some time. Jaqen isn't stupid. He put two and two together. That's all that's required there.

Arya was a noble who stayed at the Red Keep, and probably mostly at the Tower of the Hand. Myrcella, Tommen and their Septa didn't recognize her. Hell, Harwin didn't even recognize her until she spoke to him about Winterfel, and he's known her since she was born. Was Jaqen just hanging around with Ned's household while waiting to get thrown into the black cells?

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Not only did Arya very publicly declared herself to be the one the goldcloaks came to arrest when Yoren was stopped at an inn, but she later even yelled "Winterfell" as her battle cry when Amory Lorch's men attacked them at the mouth of the Gods Eye. Jaqen was present on both occassions, and additionally Hot Pie started blabbing about the "Winterfell" cry later when they were at Harrenhal. And she accused the weirwood tree there at Harrenhal "You could have saved him. He prayed to you all the time" immediately before Jaqen revealed he was present.

Gee, a girl that the Queen would send soldiers after, who cries "Winterfell" in battle, who is angry at the Old Gods for not saving a male who prayed to them all the time? However could anyone have pieced that together?

[Errant Bard]

I for one don't doubt that Syrio, the first sword of Braavos, could dance around an old, slow man in full plate armor all day long.

Which contradicts the facts, since he wasn't able to dance past the third blow, was forced to parry, and as a result got his stick severed in two.

My question is, how did Jaquen know Arya's name in Harrenhall?

Well, Jaqen has these hints:

• Arya joined the day the Hand was beheaded
  
• Arya knows waterdancing, which only nobles do in Westeros, it shows when she beats the crap out of Hot Pie
  
• Arya has a castle-forged sword
  
• Arya thinks the gold cloaks come for her (told at the first inn)
  
• Arya is a girl under a false name
  
• Arya screamed "Winterfell" when defending against Amory Lorch in the village
  
• Arya prayed to the weirwood, and said aloud "you should have saved him"
  
• Arya asks him before he explain the "three names" to take her to Riverrun
  
• "Arry" sounds like Arya
  

Among other things. So here we have a noble girl, with ties to Riverrun and Winterfell, that the queen wants, whose name sounds like Arya, whose age matches Arya's, who escaped KL shortly after the Hand was killed, who pray to weirwoods, who complains to weirwoods that they didn't save someone dear to her that prayed to them and Jaqen knows a girl called Arya Stark is wanted, after spending some time with Lorch's army and maybe Tywin's.

I ask, who would not guess? Even Gendry guessed part of it, with way less information than that, when FM actually specialize in information processing and analysis.

[Guest Ontology Interface Layer]

Well, Jaqen has these hints:

• Arya joined the day the Hand was beheaded
  
• Arya knows waterdancing, which only nobles do in Westeros, it shows when she beats the crap out of Hot Pie
  
• Arya has a castle-forged sword
  
• Arya thinks the gold cloaks come for her (told at the first inn)
  
• Arya is a girl under a false name
  
• Arya screamed "Winterfell" when defending against Amory Lorch in the village
  
• Arya prayed to the weirwood, and said aloud "you should have saved him"
  
• Arya asks him before he explain the "three names" to take her to Riverrun
  
• "Arry" sounds like Arya
  

You made the more complete list, but I was quicker! :P

[Errant Bard]

Damn you! *shakes fist*

[Ser Greguh]

My question is, how did Jaquen know Arya's name in Harrenhall?

Actually, nothing in that conversation necessarily indicates that he knew her name until the moment that Arya pronounced it. Remember that a good deal of Arya's training in the House of Black and White involves training in being a sort of Human Lie Detector. He may not have known what her true name was, and simply recognized that she was lying when she gave her fake names and that she was telling the truth when she said "Arya, of House Stark."

[Errant Bard]

she was telling the truth when she said "Arya, of House Stark."

Well, actually, he was the first one to say "Arya". You confuse Jaqen with the kind old man.

[Ser Greguh]

Well, actually, he was the first one to say "Arya". You confuse Jaqen with the kind old man.

Crap. You're right.

[pfitz]

And we all know that the first sword of Braavos does not run, but we all know that he didn't live so long by being stupid either.

Just for the record the only reason we "know" Syrio doesn't run is because he said he doesn't. For all we know he's a compulsive liar :)

:hat: