The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII

[The Grey King]

But we are talking about Rhaegar the Irrational here, so it's probably okay :unsure:

I can write off a great deal to Rhaegar's seemingly odd (but perhaps deeply purposeful) behavior. He started the whole rebelliion by running off with Lyanna, despite being married with children, after all. Odd measures taken to ensure her safety would be less surprising than usual.

To speculate a bit more wildly, we know that Rhaegar believed in the prophecy concerning the Prince who was Promised - "the dragon must have three heads", and all that. If in fact Lyanna's child was intended as the third head, then in Rhaegar's mind the baby would be essential to the future of Westeros and perhaps deserve a Kingsguard presence even in a relatively safe region.

If the three KGs at the tower were charged to protect Lyanna, why did they try to fight (and I assume, kill) Ned? He's her brother and it's obvious that he won't hurt her. Besides, if there was a marriage between her and Rhaegar, wouldn't that make Ned a part of the royal family they are sworn to protect and obey? We see that was the case with Tyrion, who was Cersei's brother - he was considered a part of the royal family by Robert's/Joff's KG.

To me, their behavior looked like that of captors, not of protectors.

Yes, I think the captor theory is very plausible - perhaps they showed up with an ultimatum from Aerys, and held her to ensure Rhaegar's good behavior and that he would fight the rebellion, etc.

Then again, suppose that we're at the opposite end of the spectrum and that the Kingsguard are there at Rhaegar's express request to protect Lyanna while he does his duty and fights. The party line from the Baratheon side was that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna! Obviously, then, Robert's allies would attempt to take Lyanna away if they found her; of course she wouldn't be harmed, but she might be out of Rhaegar's reach even if the rebellion was defeated. Now look at events from the Kingsguard's perspective - Ned Stark, an ally of Robert, arrives at the Tower and updates them on news of the world outside, namely that Rhaegar and Aerys are dead, etc. Even if they believe him, it changes nothing. Unless they are very stupid, they know that Lyanna is pregnant and that her child is now a threat to the new Baratheon dynasty - even if Eddard himself is too honorable to kill an infant, the baby would obviously be safer in loyalist hands. Perhaps they consider it their last duty to Rhaegar to protect his son and heir, or maybe they think he might still live. Lyanna was inside the Tower of Joy while the fight took place outside, so presumably she couldn't intercede to prevent fighting between the two parties, even if she were well enough.

I consider both scenarios to be possible, but more importantly I think that they both leave the R+L=J theory looking very reasonable as well.

[Rinso]

To speculate a bit more wildly, we know that Rhaegar believed in the prophecy concerning the Prince who was Promised - "the dragon must have three heads", and all that. If in fact Lyanna's child was intended as the third head, then in Rhaegar's mind the baby would be essential to the future of Westeros and perhaps deserve a Kingsguard presence even in a relatively safe region.

Okay. But the two other Heads are still left in a bigger danger with less personal protection. He still comes off as irrational to me. It's either that we miss and lack a lot of very important facts (you can bet about it), or the theory isn't true (my personal hope), or he's just mad, like most of the Targs.

Yes, I think the captor theory is very plausible - perhaps they showed up with an ultimatum from Aerys, and held her to ensure Rhaegar's good behavior and that he would fight the rebellion, etc.

I would bet on that. It makes more sense.

Then again, suppose that we're at the opposite end of the spectrum and that the Kingsguard are there at Rhaegar's express request to protect Lyanna while he does his duty and fights. The party line from the Baratheon side was that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna! Obviously, then, Robert's allies would attempt to take Lyanna away if they found her; of course she wouldn't be harmed, but she might be out of Rhaegar's reach even if the rebellion was defeated. Now look at events from the Kingsguard's perspective - Ned Stark, an ally of Robert, arrives at the Tower and updates them on news of the world outside, namely that Rhaegar and Aerys are dead, etc. Even if they believe him, it changes nothing. Unless they are very stupid, they know that Lyanna is pregnant and that her child is now a threat to the new Baratheon dynasty - even if Eddard himself is too honorable to kill an infant, the baby would obviously be safer in loyalist hands. Perhaps they consider it their last duty to Rhaegar to protect his son and heir, or maybe they think he might still live. Lyanna was inside the Tower of Joy while the fight took place outside, so presumably she couldn't intercede to prevent fighting between the two parties, even if she were well enough.

Again, if Lyanna was pregnant from Rhaegar and if that child was the product of a marriage, that would make Ned part of the royal family. He would be, in fact, the only member of the royal family who is still around, except for Lyanna. It makes no sense to fight and try to kill him. If they were ready to stop him from finding Lyanna with their lives, they weren't there to protect her.

As a matter of fact, we don't know from what she died. Most fans just assume childbirth, but the only actual description given is that of a lot of blood splattered around. We don't even know for a fact that she was pregnant. What if the KGs killed her? What if they were there on Aerys' behalf, not on Rhaegar's and that was part of his orders? I'm not sure if that's how it happened and I'm not saying that it happened that way, but the truth is that we know so very little to make such bold conclusions like R+L=J...

[The Grey King]

Okay. But the two other Heads are still left in a bigger danger with less personal protection. He still comes off as irrational to me. It's either that we miss and lack a lot of very important facts (you can bet about it), or the theory isn't true (my personal hope), or he's just mad, like most of the Targs.

Perhaps Rhaegar believed that King's Landing was as safe a place for loyalists to be as possible; there were Kingsguard there too, after all - or at least one. Jaime's reputation was probably a lot better before the rebellion than after. Regardless, a Targaryen-held city would seem safer than a remote tower with no one but your lover, a few servants(?) and whatever guards you assigned.

Again, if Lyanna was pregnant from Rhaegar and if that child was the product of a marriage, that would make Ned part of the royal family. He would be, in fact, the only member of the royal family who is still around, except for Lyanna. It makes no sense to fight and try to kill him. If they were ready to stop him from finding Lyanna with their lives, they weren't there to protect her.

Notice my switch from referring to Lyanna as "wife" to "lover". There really isn't any particular evidence that I've seen to indicate that they were married, or that Rhaegar would need to marry her to fulfill the prophecy. But even if they did, that doesn't change the practical fact that Ned was an enemy of the Targaryen dynasty! Do you really think that the Kingsguard, loyal to Aerys, Rhaegar, or both, would deal politely with (let alone obey) a man who had taken up arms with the usurpers? At most, he would be considered a prince by marriage who was a traitor to the throne - and ASOIAF history shows that even traitors who are blood relatives to the King (Daemon Blackfyre for one) are treated very harshly.

As far as his intentions toward Lyanna, I discussed them in my last post. No one would think that Ned would hurt his sister. But I think the Kingsguard could (based on what they knew) expect that he might (A) take her away from Rhaegar forever, (B) kill her baby if he found out that it was Rhaegar's, or (C ) expose it to others who would. Rhaegar wouldn't want any of these to happen, and (assuming that Lyanna actually loved him) she wouldn't either. Thus I still think that by acting as they did, they would be protecting not just Lyanna (they'd assume that she would be no less safe with them than with her brother) but also her and Rhaegar's interest in preserving their child's life and staying together.

As a matter of fact, we don't know from what she died. Most fans just assume childbirth, but the only actual description given is that of a lot of blood splattered around. We don't even know for a fact that she was pregnant. What if the KGs killed her? What if they were there on Aerys' behalf, not on Rhaegar's and that was part of his orders? I'm not sure if that's how it happened and I'm not saying that it happened that way, but the truth is that we know so very little to make such bold conclusions like R+L=J...

I think that the phrase "bed of blood" is shown to have a pretty specific meaning in ASOIAF, one related to childbirth. However I agree with this insofar as no evidence for R+L=J is "conclusive". Much of it could be interpreted differently, but I think the strongest interpretation is that the theory is true.

I should add that the theory that Lyanna was a prisoner and that the Kingsguard didn't answer to Rhaegar could probably explain most or all of these points equally well. I just maintain that we can't really deduce, from what we know now, how the situation stood.

There's also a third possibility: the Kingsguard did follow Rhaegar's orders, yet Lyanna was still a captive - because Rhaegar really did abduct and rape her! If Lyanna was unwilling and Rhaegar used her out of some twisted desire to fulfill a prophecy, it's clear that Rhaegar believed that the child was important. Therefore the Kingsguard could be captors of Lyanna (at Rhaegar's orders), and charged not with protecting her, but rather her unborn child. Therefore they couldn't let her fall into the hands of the rebels.

[Clemar the Sober]

As a matter of fact, we don't know from what she died. Most fans just assume childbirth, but the only actual description given is that of a lot of blood splattered around. We don't even know for a fact that she was pregnant. What if the KGs killed her? What if they were there on Aerys' behalf, not on Rhaegar's and that was part of his orders? I'm not sure if that's how it happened and I'm not saying that it happened that way, but the truth is that we know so very little to make such bold conclusions like R+L=J...

If you look at how Martin loved to produce puzzles surrounding the actors who would be part of the HBO TV show, we can fairly assume that he likes producing mysteries and also giving us clues to solve them.

And Jon is not the only mystery in the books; we have Starfall, Dawn, the Doom, the faceless man, not to mention Varys. And just look at the References and Homages topic.

My point is that we can assume that the hints are there so that we can solve the puzzle surrounding Jon, so if they are all pointing in one direction namely, and I know that a lot of you don’t agree with me, that Jon is Lyannas son, we shouldn’t just disregard it because we have a problem with the part that Rheagar then might be the father.

I’m not trying to prove the R+L=J theory here, because I agree that we still have to little facts or better say hints to assume that this is the only possibility. But on the other hand the hints pointing us towards Lyanna are there.

Yes, I think the captor theory is very plausible - perhaps they showed up with an ultimatum from Aerys, and held her to ensure Rhaegar's good behavior and that he would fight the rebellion, etc.

I also think that this could be the case, it somehow better explains the presence of the KG then any other theory I heard so far. And if Lyanna is a captive of KG and Aerys it would explain the fight, they would never let her go. In addition I agree, why believe anyone when he tells you your king is dead, it could be a trick.

[Edward the Great]

And if Lyanna is a captive of KG and Aerys it would explain the fight, they would never let her go. In addition I agree, why believe anyone when he tells you your king is dead, it could be a trick.

Lyanna = captive is a good theory.

As to why they didn't treat Ned like a member of the royal family, well, the rest of Rhaegar's family was killed in King's Landing and then Ned was sent south in command of an army to lift the siege of Storm's End.

If I were Gerold Hightower I wouldn't trust Ned any further than I could throw him. Kill first, ask questions later.

[cravenravenkeeper]

Maybe Robert was right and Rhaegar was raping her? Maybe he had a vision that she was the mom of the ptwp and he was the dad. She liked him, but not enough to be his 2nd wife. She was unwilling, Rhaeger ordered the KG to keep her there and protect his heir.

This jives just fine with the "promise me ned" bit-After all just because she was raped by the father doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings for the baby.

I lean towards it not being rape, but I always hope for the nice outcome in these stories.

[Rinso]

Perhaps Rhaegar believed that King's Landing was as safe a place for loyalists to be as possible; there were Kingsguard there too, after all - or at least one. Jaime's reputation was probably a lot better before the rebellion than after. Regardless, a Targaryen-held city would seem safer than a remote tower with no one but your lover, a few servants(?) and whatever guards you assigned.

Yes, I thought about the fact that his family was in a well fortified city, while Lyanna was not, ergo she needed the KGs more. It's a good argument. And yet, army or not, safe city or not, the KGs are the personal protectors, the very last, crucial and skilled line of defence. And while Jaime's reputation was (obviously) different at the time, he still was very young and inexperienced, even if full of promise. To leave the king and the whole royal family without the protection of the Lord Commander of the KG and its best warrior during a crisis like the War of the Usurper seems strange to me, to say the least. I may be overlooking it, but it's just... fishy.

Notice my switch from referring to Lyanna as "wife" to "lover". There really isn't any particular evidence that I've seen to indicate that they were married, or that Rhaegar would need to marry her to fulfill the prophecy. But even if they did, that doesn't change the practical fact that Ned was an enemy of the Targaryen dynasty! Do you really think that the Kingsguard, loyal to Aerys, Rhaegar, or both, would deal politely with (let alone obey) a man who had taken up arms with the usurpers? At most, he would be considered a prince by marriage who was a traitor to the throne - and ASOIAF history shows that even traitors who are blood relatives to the King (Daemon Blackfyre for one) are treated very harshly.

If she was Rhaegar's lover, not wife, then yes, the argument of them fighting Ned is worthless. I was specifically pondering over that fact while considering the option of her being Rhaegar's wife and that being known to the three KGs. And still, to respond to your points, they were informed that the Targaryen dynasty is done and defeated. The war was already over. If they were clinging to the fact (which is not fact at all) that Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife, it really seems redundant, to me at least, to try and kill her brother just to stop him from reaching her.

As far as his intentions toward Lyanna, I discussed them in my last post. No one would think that Ned would hurt his sister. But I think the Kingsguard could (based on what they knew) expect that he might (A) take her away from Rhaegar forever, (B) kill her baby if he found out that it was Rhaegar's, or (C ) expose it to others who would. Rhaegar wouldn't want any of these to happen, and (assuming that Lyanna actually loved him) she wouldn't either. Thus I still think that by acting as they did, they would be protecting not just Lyanna (they'd assume that she would be no less safe with them than with her brother) but also her and Rhaegar's interest in preserving their child's life and staying together.

A) - they were informed that Rhaegar is dead.

B) - I'm inclined to believe that they (at least Dayne) knew Ned well enough to know that he won't kill a newborn baby, especially one that is his own blood.

C) - that's a plausible reason, now.

You know what's curious? During Ned's dream, nobody seems to mention Lyanna. In the dream, he speaks with the KGs, he begins to fight them and then he just hears her screaming his name. My guess is that there is a huge gap of information about the event and without filling it, all we can do is make do with guesses.

I think that the phrase "bed of blood" is shown to have a pretty specific meaning in ASOIAF, one related to childbirth. However I agree with this insofar as no evidence for R+L=J is "conclusive". Much of it could be interpreted differently, but I think the strongest interpretation is that the theory is true.

I don't recall a specific tie between a "bed of blood" and childbirth. Maybe I have forgotten about it. I think that it's just a strong fan assumption that has turned itself into a fact in many people's heads, but I really don't recall a mention of bed of blood in relation of childbirth. Though I may well be wrong - I cannot be expected to rember every word in the books.

I should add that the theory that Lyanna was a prisoner and that the Kingsguard didn't answer to Rhaegar could probably explain most or all of these points equally well. I just maintain that we can't really deduce, from what we know now, how the situation stood.

Actually, last night I thought about my stab in the dark, how the KGs are Lyanna's captors, not protectors and even how they might have killed her or, at least, contributed somehow for her death and, well... it's not that impossible, if we assume that they were there on Aerys' behalf. He was willing to destroy King's Landing just to spite the rebels, who's to say that he wasn't willing to do the same with Lyanna? He might have very well ordered the KGs to keep her (safe) in the tower, to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation, but if it should happen that the rebels come looking for her, snuff her. We know that the old KGs were obedient enough to close their eyes when Aerys tortured people to death or raped and brutalized his own wife, so who knows...

There's also a third possibility: the Kingsguard did follow Rhaegar's orders, yet Lyanna was still a captive - because Rhaegar really did abduct and rape her! If Lyanna was unwilling and Rhaegar used her out of some twisted desire to fulfill a prophecy, it's clear that Rhaegar believed that the child was important. Therefore the Kingsguard could be captors of Lyanna (at Rhaegar's orders), and charged not with protecting her, but rather her unborn child. Therefore they couldn't let her fall into the hands of the rebels.

Maybe Robert was right and Rhaegar was raping her? Maybe he had a vision that she was the mom of the ptwp and he was the dad. She liked him, but not enough to be his 2nd wife. She was unwilling, Rhaeger ordered the KG to keep her there and protect his heir.

This jives just fine with the "promise me ned" bit-After all just because she was raped by the father doesn't mean she doesn't have feelings for the baby.

Actually, I have been considering this outcome for a while now. Most supporters of the R+L=J theory easily dismiss the abduction/rape possibility, by saying that it was just Robert deluding himself. Which might be true, but there was at least one other person, who apparently came to the conclusion that whatever Rhaegar did to/with Lyanna, he had to kill him for it. Yes, Brandon Stark, Lyanna's older brother. Who, when he heard what happened, rode from the Riverlands to King's Landing, fostering a murderous rage the whole time, and when he got to the Red Keep, he called out Rhaegar to come out and die. Now, call me a fool, but when two separate people come separately to what seems to be the same conclusion, I start to think that there is no smoke without fire, if you get my drift.

Rhaegar's seeming obsession with the PtwP prophecy doesn't make him any favors in that speculation either...

My point is that we can assume that the hints are there so that we can solve the puzzle surrounding Jon, so if they are all pointing in one direction namely, and I know that a lot of you don’t agree with me, that Jon is Lyannas son, we shouldn’t just disregard it because we have a problem with the part that Rheagar then might be the father.

Actually, most people agree with you about Jon being Lyanna's son.

As fot the hints and the solving of the puzzle, no arguing there, but who's to say that we're solving it right? We have very few pieces of the puzzle, actually. We speculate a lot, but know little, concerning the R+L=J theory.

[Ser Howsmelly]

Actually, last night I thought about my stab in the dark, how the KGs are Lyanna's captors, not protectors and even how they might have killed her or, at least, contributed somehow for her death and, well... it's not that impossible, if we assume that they were there on Aerys' behalf. He was willing to destroy King's Landing just to spite the rebels, who's to say that he wasn't willing to do the same with Lyanna? He might have very well ordered the KGs to keep her (safe) in the tower, to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation, but if it should happen that the rebels come looking for her, snuff her. We know that the old KGs were obedient enough to close their eyes when Aerys tortured people to death or raped and brutalized his own wife, so who knows...

Ey. So I feel that its very unlikely that the three KG could have been the direct cause for Lyanna's death. Firstly, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne are remembered as some of the most honourable knights of the realm by various characters within ASOIAF (chiefly Ned Stark). I figure that if they had contributed at all to Lya's death and Ned was aware of it then his memories of them would be tarnished. The tone that is employed whenever Ned reminisces about the Tower of Joy is that of sadness and regret - rather then vengeance or self-righteousness for that matter.

re: Brandon calling for Rhaegar to come out and die.

Brandon is not remembered as one of the most level-headed thinkers in the series. Neither is Robert.

[Rinso]

Ey. So I feel that its very unlikely that the three KG could have been the direct cause for Lyanna's death. Firstly, Gerold Hightower and Arthur Dayne are remembered as some of the most honourable knights of the realm by various characters within ASOIAF (chiefly Ned Stark). I figure that if they had contributed at all to Lya's death and Ned was aware of it then his memories of them would be tarnished. The tone that is employed whenever Ned reminisces about the Tower of Joy is that of sadness and regret - rather then vengeance or self-righteousness for that matter.

First. Honourable KG knight = obedient KG knight. The old KG was certainly obedient enough. Their vows are specifically designed so they would obey the king no matter what. According to my (rather wild, I admit, but not impossible) speculation, they could have been ordered by the king to do something like this in case someone other than the loyalists came looking for Lyanna. I would bet that they didn't even wanted to do such a thing, but there was no way to screw the orders, or they would have been as bad as the Kingslayer.

Second, if Ned's memory would have been tarnished... Well, he undoubtedly loved his sister, so it would make sense to hate her killer/s, wouldn't it? The answer is not as simple as you might think at first. It's safe to say that he loved his father and his brother too, I think. And yet, why doesn't he think of Aerys with hatred and vengeance and whatnot? There is not a single sentence in the books where he is shown to hate Aerys. Does that mean that Aerys didn't kill his father and his brother in horrible ways? No, it simply means that Ned has put it all behind his back (something that Robert never managed to do). The fact that Ned never thinks ill of Rhaegar and/or the three KGs doesn't prove anything.

By the way, why is he so sad when he thinks of his fight with Dayne? It's not like that he knew hm extremely well. It might have been just because he killed the brother of the woman he was supposedly in love with. But there might have been more to it.

re: Brandon calling for Rhaegar to come out and die.

Brandon is not remembered as one of the most level-headed thinkers in the series. Neither is Robert.

Sure, they might be both wrong. But don't dismiss it so easily.

[The Grey King]

If she was Rhaegar's lover, not wife, then yes, the argument of them fighting Ned is worthless. I was specifically pondering over that fact while considering the option of her being Rhaegar's wife and that being known to the three KGs. And still, to respond to your points, they were informed that the Targaryen dynasty is done and defeated. The war was already over. If they were clinging to the fact (which is not fact at all) that Lyanna was Rhaegar's wife, it really seems redundant, to me at least, to try and kill her brother just to stop him from reaching her.

...

A) - they were informed that Rhaegar is dead.

B) - I'm inclined to believe that they (at least Dayne) knew Ned well enough to know that he won't kill a newborn baby, especially one that is his own blood.

C) - that's a plausible reason, now.

These all require us to assume that the Kingsguard knew Ned as well as we do, which is very unlikely seeing as we've had extensive looks into his mind and those of his wife and children. Is there a part of the books that suggests Dayne knew Ned well? I don't remember if there is. Considering how ruthless most of the lords in Westeros are, Ned is a major exception. Maybe they thought there was no reason to believe him when he claimed Rhaegar was dead, and that he might hurt his own nephew/niece for political reasons. Even if they did know him well, a great deal of the knightly code of honor espoused by the shining exemplars in ASOIAF (Dayne, Selmy, Aemon the Dragonknight, etc.) involves precisely this sort of hopeless obedience of orders, because of reason (C ).

You know what's curious? During Ned's dream, nobody seems to mention Lyanna. In the dream, he speaks with the KGs, he begins to fight them and then he just hears her screaming his name. My guess is that there is a huge gap of information about the event and without filling it, all we can do is make do with guesses.

...

Most supporters of the R+L=J theory easily dismiss the abduction/rape possibility, by saying that it was just Robert deluding himself. Which might be true, but there was at least one other person, who apparently came to the conclusion that whatever Rhaegar did to/with Lyanna, he had to kill him for it. Yes, Brandon Stark, Lyanna's older brother. Who, when he heard what happened, rode from the Riverlands to King's Landing, fostering a murderous rage the whole time, and when he got to the Red Keep, he called out Rhaegar to come out and die. Now, call me a fool, but when two separate people come separately to what seems to be the same conclusion, I start to think that there is no smoke without fire, if you get my drift.

Rhaegar's seeming obsession with the PtwP prophecy doesn't make him any favors in that speculation either...

I agree. I think that Martin tends to show us something that is true, but lets our overactive imaginations fill in the gaps in ways that may be thoroughly wrong. Personally I see a lot more evidence in the books that R+L=J is true than I do about the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship, why the Kingsguard were there, etc. And I agree that even so, we don't really "know" whether R+L=J is really true, or happened the way we think.

I don't recall a specific tie between a "bed of blood" and childbirth. Maybe I have forgotten about it. I think that it's just a strong fan assumption that has turned itself into a fact in many people's heads, but I really don't recall a mention of bed of blood in relation of childbirth. Though I may well be wrong - I cannot be expected to rember every word in the books.

Apparently Mirri Maz Duur uses the phrase when discussing her knowledge of the arts of childbirth. I believe it's in AGOT, Ch. 62, when Dany first meets her, but I'm not sure. I only noticed this because it was cited by someone else much earlier in this thread - I don't remember every word either!

A number of people who've posted here seem to have an opinion about whether they want R+L=J to be true or not. I really don't - I've thought from the beginning that the mystery about what happened at the Tower of Joy was one of the most interesting buried parts of ASOIAF, but my enjoyment of it doesn't depend on what the ultimate answer is (as long as it's something important and not trivial). I do believe that the evidence points toward it being true, but whether or not I think it's a good thing depends on how Martin incorporates it into the story in Books 5-7.

[Dreadwolf]

Apparently Mirri Maz Duur uses the phrase when discussing her knowledge of the arts of childbirth. I believe it's in AGOT, Ch. 62, when Dany first meets her, but I'm not sure. I only noticed this because it was cited by someone else much earlier in this thread - I don't remember every word either!

A number of people who've posted here seem to have an opinion about whether they want R+L=J to be true or not. I really don't - I've thought from the beginning that the mystery about what happened at the Tower of Joy was one of the most interesting buried parts of ASOIAF, but my enjoyment of it doesn't depend on what the ultimate answer is (as long as it's something important and not trivial). I do believe that the evidence points toward it being true, but whether or not I think it's a good thing depends on how Martin incorporates it into the story in Books 5-7.

That would be my post #192 somewhere above. And I don't have the books with me right now but I am sure MMD used the term 'bed of blood' to ilustrate her skills in child birth assistance as soon as she saw her belly.

[Rinso]

Is there a part of the books that suggests Dayne knew Ned well?

Simply put, no. But I never claimed that he knew him well. He was in Harrenhal, though, when Ned hit on his sister (and it seems like the affection was reciprocal and mutual). Of course, that wouldn't mean that he knew him well, but, I don't know, wouldn't it bring at least some tiny level of trust? Besides, it's not like you need to know a man in much depth to know wether he would kill a newborn baby or not.

Apparently Mirri Maz Duur uses the phrase when discussing her knowledge of the arts of childbirth. I believe it's in AGOT, Ch. 62, when Dany first meets her, but I'm not sure. I only noticed this because it was cited by someone else much earlier in this thread - I don't remember every word either!

Yoy seem to be right, there is a mention of a "bloody bed" there. Though not "bed of blood". Though I must say that this is a very strong argument for a pregnant Lyanna.

A number of people who've posted here seem to have an opinion about whether they want R+L=J to be true or not. I really don't - I've thought from the beginning that the mystery about what happened at the Tower of Joy was one of the most interesting buried parts of ASOIAF, but my enjoyment of it doesn't depend on what the ultimate answer is (as long as it's something important and not trivial). I do believe that the evidence points toward it being true, but whether or not I think it's a good thing depends on how Martin incorporates it into the story in Books 5-7.

I'm actually one of the more loud enemies of the R+L=J theory, cheifly because I really don't want Jon to be so bloody special and because I fear that if he is, that might lead to a cheesy outcome at the end. Though I rarely dare to dispute the theory's legitimacy - the clues and the hints are too strong. I'm just not fond of many assumtions about it, like "Jon will become king, cause he's a hidden prince" or "Jon will get to shag Dany, because he's a Targ" etc.

[The Grey King]

That would be my post #192 somewhere above. And I don't have the books with me right now but I am sure MMD used the term 'bed of blood' to ilustrate her skills in child birth assistance as soon as she saw her belly.

Thanks. I actually think this is one of the keystones of the R+L=J theory, because without it there's only very tenuous evidence that Lyanna was pregnant at all.

Simply put, no. But I never claimed that he knew him well. He was in Harrenhal, though, when Ned hit on his sister (and it seems like the affection was reciprocal and mutual). Of course, that wouldn't mean that he knew him well, but, I don't know, wouldn't it bring at least some tiny level of trust? Besides, it's not like you need to know a man in much depth to know wether he would kill a newborn baby or not.

Probably not. If the Kingsguard did indeed act as I was projecting here, I think they were either very stubborn or afraid that someone other than Ned might harm the child once Lyanna was returned to the Baratheon side.

I'm actually one of the more loud enemies of the R+L=J theory, cheifly because I really don't want Jon to be so bloody special and because I fear that if he is, that might lead to a cheesy outcome at the end. Though I rarely dare to dispute the theory's legitimacy - the clues and the hints are too strong. I'm just not fond of many assumtions about it, like "Jon will become king, cause he's a hidden prince" or "Jon will get to shag Dany, because he's a Targ" etc.

Hopefully even if the theory is true, it won't cause Martin to stray into formulaic epic fantasy territory and "Belgarionize" (I like the word) Jon. Then again, if there's one thing that I've learned from reading far too many long fantasy series, it's that authors find it much easier to start one in a fresh and interesting way than to have it be fresh and interesting at the end. I'm probably not alone in thinking that one of the refreshing things about ASOIAF is that the supernatural aspects have been severely restricted so far; they're mostly presented as snippets of isolated experience by individuals (Sam, Davos, etc.) who probably doubted their own eyes and wouldn't be believed by most of the outside world. Dany and Jon smiting an army of Others and their chilly minions with obsidian-tipped javelins hurled from the backs of a dragons, then going on to reconquer Westeros for a new Targaryen dynasty, would be very disappointing. I'm not too afraid of this for several reasons:

(1) It seems incredibly out of character for Martin, and the idea behind ASOIAF as a whole.

(2) I can't imagine something so formulaic would require him to miss so many publication deadlines. I actually find the delays encouraging in this sense: quality control is good! Hopefully he didn't pull a Tad Williams and write the majority of the series before realizing he had no idea of how to resolve it.

But the problem is that Martin gives every indication that the war with the Others is going to be the ultimate focus of the series, so hopefully it doesn't degenerate into a magical fireworks display. I also hope that the great characters (perhaps Tyrion most of all) and Machiavellian intrigue that have propelled the series so far don't end up as a mere appetizer to a glorified D&D dungeon crawl (tundra crawl?).

[Rinso]

Yeah, well, cheers for your faith, brother. I, however, am afraid that making characters "special" is the only logical step before Belgarionizing them. I mean, my point in trashing R+L=J is, why would GRRM bother to make Jon the secret son of prince Rhaegar, probably sired to fulfull a world-saving prophecy, if he doesn't plan to use this background to, well, have him save the world and become king? Who knows what's on his mind, and God knows, the man has proven that he can deliver a brutally awesome plot like no one else can, but... the fear is there.

[Shewoman]

Ned is, of course, a pivotal character. His actions after the war ends are worth noting. I don't mean to build a lot on this, but there is the fact that Ned apparently comes home after the war to his new wife and son with another child no one knew he had; b) he is very worried about what will happen to Jon if he accompanies Ned to Kings Landing, although he's not at all concerned about taking Sansa, Bran and Arya there (Bran, of course, was unable to make the trip), and c) ihe is so angry at Catelyn when she asks if Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne that she never raises any questions to Ned about Jon's mother again. It's hard to avoid the sense that some change took place in Ned's life sometime after Harrenhal, where he was a shy wolf-lad with the hots for Ashara, and the end of the war. He did, of course, marry Catelyn a few months after the war began, but, even though Catelyn is no fan of Jon, that hardly explains Ned's deep concern for him--and of all the children Ned claims, Jon seems to be the one that he is the most worried about, even though he has another son who is so badly injured that he seems unlikely to ever walk on his own again.

Rinso, Martin has said that we'll know about Jon's parentage, but if I remember correctly he didn't say the other characters would. Jon may end up being pivotal in the war against the Others for reasons that have nothing to do with his parentage. He may find himself too Starkish to marry his aunt. He may, after all our concern about his background, die young. I trust Martin to tell the story he wants to tell.

[Edward the Great]

The kingsguard didn't harm Lyanna in any way because her poor health was the only thing preventing them from going into exile.

[Ser Howsmelly]

The kingsguard didn't harm Lyanna in any way because her poor health was the only thing preventing them from going into exile.

The Kingsguard do not run away.

[Sylmaril]

First post here, but I've been following the board for some time now. =)

Rather than re-opening old arguments I would like to speculate on new details, and I mark the word "speculate" because you guys analized every bit of information you had to the last possible conclusion that there is no room for further interpretations.. so I thought it would be interesting to share some of my crack-pot theories just to refresh the argument!! So don't take my words too seriously, I just want to kill some time while desperately waiting for ADWD!!

When discussing Ashara Dayne, someone said that we couldn't assume she stayed at Starfall during all the course of the war just because the book mentions that she was there at the end.

I asked myself which place would be plausible for her to be other than Starfall? I don't think ladies are sent as wards the same as men.. but they can be companions to higher born ladies. In Meera's tale it is said that Elia brought with her a dozen lady companions to attend her at Harrenhal. So what if Ashara was one of them? As a Dayne of Dorne it would make sense for her to be a member of Princess Martell's entourage.

So what?

Well, let's go a step further, how the heck did Ned find Lyanna if her whereabouts were unknown? I don't really think Rhaegar spread the tale of the Tower of Joy for everyone to know! What if Ned couldn't find her? He would have noticed the absence of the three remaining members of the KG from every battleground and maybe started to consider the possibility of a connectin between their disappearance and Lyanna's..

So let's draw some conclusions from this two ideas. Rhaegar is dead and so are his wife, children and sire. No one knows where the three KG knights are, so what if Ned asked Ashara if she knew anything? Rhaegar could well have confided his secret to his best friend Arthur Dayne, who was there either under Rhaegar's orders or Aerys' (if Aerys sent Dayne and the other two looking for his son, he didn't have to know exactly where he was but simply send them to fetch him). The Sword of the Morning however would never have revealed one of his prince's secret, but as Arthur's sister and Elia's companion I figure Ashara was to some extent close with the Royal family and might have had some knowledge of their whereabouts, or at least suspected something. I can imagine Ned asking her to tell him if she might know were Lyanna was, they supposedly loved each other and both their brother and sister were in danger. Ned of course wanted to bring Lyanna home safe and didn't necessarily expect to fight the KG. It could all have ended "well", but the fact that Lyanna carried Rhaegar's son (legitimate or not) might have made it inevitable.

Of course this is my guess, but I would love a scenario with the Daynes being a little more involved, the star-crossed love between Ned and Ashara is even more mysterious than the one between Rhaegar and Lyanna IMO. Besides, a larger contribution of Ashara to the story would also provide a stronger reason (her feeling of guilt over telling Ned where her brother was, which resulted in her brother dying at the hand of Ned) for her to commit suicide.

But this is just a stretch of my imagination.. I know maybe I am just a rabid a fan but I'm definitely not the only one deluding myself *coff coff* Melisandre thinking Stannis is Azor Ahai *coff coff*

[SFDanny]

First post here, but I've been following the board for some time now. =)

Welcome and nice name. JRR would be proud.

Rather than re-opening old arguments I would like to speculate on new details, and I mark the word "speculate" because you guys analized every bit of information you had to the last possible conclusion that there is no room for further interpretations.. so I thought it would be interesting to share some of my crack-pot theories just to refresh the argument!! So don't take my words too seriously, I just want to kill some time while desperately waiting for ADWD!!

When discussing Ashara Dayne, someone said that we couldn't assume she stayed at Starfall during all the course of the war just because the book mentions that she was there at the end.

I asked myself which place would be plausible for her to be other than Starfall? I don't think ladies are sent as wards the same as men.. but they can be companions to higher born ladies. In Meera's tale it is said that Elia brought with her a dozen lady companions to attend her at Harrenhal. So what if Ashara was one of them? As a Dayne of Dorne it would make sense for her to be a member of Princess Martell's entourage.

So what?

I think it is pretty clear from Meera's tale that Ashara and Ned meet at Harrenhal under just such circumstances. It is the general assumption around here anyway.

Well, let's go a step further, how the heck did Ned find Lyanna if her whereabouts were unknown? I don't really think Rhaegar spread the tale of the Tower of Joy for everyone to know! What if Ned couldn't find her? He would have noticed the absence of the three remaining members of the KG from every battleground and maybe started to consider the possibility of a connectin between their disappearance and Lyanna's..

So let's draw some conclusions from this two ideas. Rhaegar is dead and so are his wife, children and sire. No one knows where the three KG knights are, so what if Ned asked Ashara if she knew anything? Rhaegar could well have confided his secret to his best friend Arthur Dayne, who was there either under Rhaegar's orders or Aerys' (if Aerys sent Dayne and the other two looking for his son, he didn't have to know exactly where he was but simply send them to fetch him). The Sword of the Morning however would never have revealed one of his prince's secret, but as Arthur's sister and Elia's companion I figure Ashara was to some extent close with the Royal family and might have had some knowledge of their whereabouts, or at least suspected something. I can imagine Ned asking her to tell him if she might know were Lyanna was, they supposedly loved each other and both their brother and sister were in danger. Ned of course wanted to bring Lyanna home safe and didn't necessarily expect to fight the KG. It could all have ended "well", but the fact that Lyanna carried Rhaegar's son (legitimate or not) might have made it inevitable.

There has been a lot of speculation on this topic, and, like your thoughts, Ashara's name always gets prominent mention as a possible source for Ned of Lyanna's whereabouts. I've always liked the idea because it gives added reason for Ashara's apparent suicide. As you note below, if she felt her information led to her brother's death at Ned's hand it would explain her actions in a much more satisfactory way than the assumption she dies because Ned tells her of his marriage. Ned's wedding is old news and, given that it is the basis for the rebels alliance with House Tully, it should be widely known much before Ned arrives in Starfall.

Of course this is my guess, but I would love a scenario with the Daynes being a little more involved, the star-crossed love between Ned and Ashara is even more mysterious than the one between Rhaegar and Lyanna IMO. Besides, a larger contribution of Ashara to the story would also provide a stronger reason (her feeling of guilt over telling Ned where her brother was, which resulted in her brother dying at the hand of Ned) for her to commit suicide.

But this is just a stretch of my imagination.. I know maybe I am just a rabid a fan but I'm definitely not the only one deluding myself *coff coff* Melisandre thinking Stannis is Azor Ahai *coff coff*

Welcome again, from one rabid fan to another.

[SFDanny]

The Kingsguard do not run away.

Loyal members of the Kingsguard do their duty. That means they run away if their duty, via orders or oath, tell them to do so. The point should be that when circumstances call upon the Kingsguard to sacrifice their lives in order to do their duty, first and foremost in the protection of their king, they do it willingly. It is not some silly absolutist macho boast about not running.