American Politics XII

[Lord O' Bones]

Hoo boy . . . you people are lapping up the left-wing talking points. Astroturfing? "Big Insurance"? Try to apply Ockham's razor: the vast majority of people are happy with their healthcare; they don't want it messed with; they're fucking pissed about it being messed with.

On the plus side, this delusion you left-wing screwballs are operating under is going to result in a lot of Democrats getting thrown out on their backsides in 2010. My best-case scenario in the event of an Obama win last November was the Democrats overreaching, and I've certainly not been disappointed on that front. The American electorate is finally waking up to the horrors of a federal government run amok; too bad the big-spending Bush years wasn't enough to accomplish that, but better late than never, I suppose.

Well, at least you can spell hoo correctly, try spelling Occam correctly next time.

The "vast majority of people" don't necessarily have health care, let alone have enough knowledge to be happy with it.

The ones with great health care that are worried about it being messed with are also, compartmentally, idiots. (They have to be smart with something to have this great healthcare in the first place; or they're Congressman and Senators) This will not affect them.

Left-wing screwballs... I can't even continue to address this horseshit.

You know what? Fuck you for claiming Kentucky, the state of my birth, my family and my heritage.

If you had any other purpose than to come here and talk shit and make yourself look pointlessly angry and fucking retarded, if you had anything useful to say, people like me would engage you in good faith. But you can't do that can you? You just pop in here and spout vitriol and baseless accusation.

I would even encourage that behavior in part, because I know DanteGabriel needs to feed on you people before the sun rises, but you're too craven to ever stick around and actually defend your statements in debate.

You just show up, spew shit, act superior and run away like a fucking coward.

What have you done for your country? Other than set us "left-wing screwballs" straight on the internet? (Fucking ridiculous.)

Edit: to tone down the language

[Inigima]

Then perhaps we need to start by focusing our attention on education, and worry about turning our country into a socialist fascist state later. If we get an overall well educated populace, and we ensure that they are also well informed, and they still hand the keys over to tyranny, then at least we'll be able to say that we did our best.

We'd like to, but your lot keeps trying to ruin that too.

EDIT: Forgot this fun quote from Arthur Laffer, the dipshit who theorized the Laffer Curve:

Arthur Laffer, the man who came up with the Laffer Curve -- the supply-side economic argument that has so captivated the Republican Party -- really should know a little something about government programs. But apparently not.

Via my friend Steve Benen, here's what Laffer had to say when debating healthcare reform during an appearance on CNN Tuesday morning:

If you like the Post Office and the Department of Motor Vehicles and you think they're run well, just wait till you see Medicare, Medicaid and health care done by the government.

This is, as Benen notes, not the first time someone's worried about the government taking over Medicare -- which just happens to be a government program.

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/200...qotd/index.html

I wonder how many more people would agree with us if they actually believed things that were true.

[TrackerNeil]

Looks like all this right wing astroturfing and appeals to a mob mentality to fight against health care reform have resulted in death threats against a Democratic Congressman.

All this conservative sturm and drang is the main reason I skipped a local town hall that featured Arlen Specter (my newly Democratic senator) and Secretary of HHS Kathleen Sebelius. Sure enough, a bunch of right-wing strappers turned the event into the rhetorical equivalent of a lynch mob, with one participant yelling at Sebelius "Excommunicate her!" (This was reported in the Philadelphia Inquirer if you doubt it.) After working hard at distorting the issue nearly beyond reasonable discourse, the right is evidently now dedicated to simply shutting down debate by sheer lungpower.

These conservatives...it was said somewhere else, but it bears repeating. When they control the machinery of government they run amok; when they don't, they throw themselves on the gears so that it won't function at all. I hope Barack Obama has them for breakfast.

[Commodore]

Your "concerned citizens" are people misinformed and organized by the Health Insurance industry.

What evidence is there of this?

Iowahawk has some great pictures contrasting leftist protesters with uniforms and and premade signs paid for in bulk with the protesters at these town hall meetings wearing normal clothes and carrying crude hand written posters.

[Annelise]

Then perhaps we need to start by focusing our attention on education, and worry about turning our country into a socialist fascist state later.

Do you support the admin's investment in education and its education goals so far? This is from the big brother site but I'm sure you can find it elsewhere: http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/education/

[Serious Callers Only]

How long till kristalnacht night of the long knives ? Hope you enjoy your divorce from reality.

[TrackerNeil]

What evidence is there of this?

Well, your posts on this board, for one. You can cruise to Redstate.com if you like and find a treasure trove of distortions, half-truths and outright lies.

[Annelise]

This is what the Kaiser foundation finds in it's latest monthly poll on HCR:

The July Kaiser Health Tracking Poll finds a majority of the public remains supportive of taking action on health reform now, though there is some softening of support as criticisms and doubts seem to be registering.

As has been the case over the past ten months, a majority of the American people continue to believe that health reform is more important than ever despite the country's economic problems, and the public believes by a two to one margin that the country will be better rather than worse off if Congress and the president enact health reform.

But with health reform moving from the abstract to concrete legislative proposals, criticisms made during the policy debate appear to be having an impact on the public and several indicators have softened somewhat from earlier this year. A larger share of the public is worried that Congress and the president will pass a bill that’s bad for their family than are worried that health care reform will not happen this year. While a majority of the public favors health care reform now, the share that is supportive is down five percentage points since June.

More on the specifics:

As has been the case over the past ten months, a majority of the American people (56%) continue to believe that health reform is more important than ever despite the country's economic problems, and the public believes by a two to one margin (51% versus 23%) that the country will be better rather than worse off if Congress and the president enact health reform. More Americans think they and their family will be better off (39%) than worse off (21%) if legislation passes, with roughly a third (32%) believing it will make no difference for them or their family.

But with health reform moving from the abstract to concrete legislative proposals, criticisms made during the policy debate appear to be having an impact on the public and several indicators have softened somewhat from earlier this year. A larger share of the public is worried that Congress and the president will pass a bill that’s bad for their family (54%) than are worried that health care reform will not happen this year (39%). While a majority of the public favors health care reform now, the share that is supportive is down five percentage points since June (from 61% to 56%). The proportion who say passage of health care reform will make things worse for their own family, although relatively small, has doubled since February (from 11% to 21%), as has the proportion who say the country would be worse off if health care reform passed (from 12% to 23%). Specific proposals to cover the uninsured, while still supported by majorities, also show a weakening in support. For example, overall support for an employer mandate fell from 69 percent to 64 percent since last month and those who "strongly" favored the idea fell from 42 percent to 29 percent.

Financing health reform is front and center of the current debate. Roughly half (51%) of the public is willing to pay more for expanding health coverage--up ten percentage points from last month. And some revenue measures have strong support (taxing cigarettes, taxing Americans earning more than $250,000 annually, and taxing alcohol, beer and wine all have greater than 60% support). However, consistent with the overall pattern, support for revenue measures has softened across the board with a portion of the public shifting from "strongly" to "somewhat" supportive. For example, the percentage who strongly support taxing those earning more than $250,000 annually fell from 49 percent to 40 percent since last month.

One highly debated issue has been the establishment of a public health insurance plan to compete with private plans--six in ten support this idea. When asked if they would be interested in purchasing a public insurance plan if it were made available, about a quarter (23%) of the public say they would "very likely" look into it and about a quarter (23%) would be "not at all likely" to explore purchasing such a plan.

The proportion of the public following the health reform debate closely (27%) has not changed much over the past several months. But the proportion who report seeing an ad about health care reform is up 10 percentage points since last month (31% compared to 21% in June), with nearly as many reporting seeing a negative as a positive ad, another change from June when reported viewing of positive ads clearly dominated.

http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/pomr072309nr.cfm

So what I take away from that is the obvious: the advertising war is on and that's what's causing the shift in numbers, particularly the attack ads. Not that people have grown more informed on particulars of the debate, which should not be a surprise to anyone. ETA: there's more on the advertising aspect in there, like:

When those who initially support the public plan are told that this could give the government an unfair advantage over private companies, overall support drops to 35 percent. Conversely, when opponents are told that public plans would give people more choice or help drive down costs through competition, overall support jumps to roughly seven in ten.

Hey look, this is pretty nifty: http://www.kff.org/healthreform/sidebyside.cfm

You can choose from 12 HCR proposals and compare them on various issues.. cost control, employer requirements, financing, prevention/wellness, etc.

[Krafus]

Try to apply Ockham's razor: the vast majority of people are happy with their healthcare; they don't want it messed with; they're fucking pissed about it being messed with.

I'm pretty sure the, what, 45-47 million uninsured Americans would disagree with you, and that number doesn't even cover those who are woefully underinsured. Or the people who are indeed currently happy with their health insurance because they've never made a really expensive claim, blissfully unaware that when that day comes, they'll be royally screwed.

[Annelise]

I'm encouraged that whatever their views on their own policy, the majority still views HCR as important, that it needs to get done (in spite of the economy) and think it will help the country. And have expressed willingness to pay for expanding coverage. That was sort of a surprise to me.. I think the angst about what it will mean on an individual level as far as coverage now that we're down to drafting is normal, especially given that it's rather chaotic with all the various proposals out there.. on one hand, I really wish people wouldn't form opinions based on political ads but this *is* really complicated and hard to follow. But the majority nevertheless expressing their willingness to pay more is ... well. I would have thought that would have gone down, not up.

[BloodRider]

Should I be careful what I write here? Are any of you guys going to report my posts to whitehouse.gov?

I am now! Thanks for the tip.

[TrackerNeil]

I'm encouraged that whatever their views on their own policy, the majority still views HCR as important, that it needs to get done (in spite of the economy) and think it will help the country. And have expressed willingness to pay for expanding coverage. That was sort of a surprise to me.. I think the angst about what it will mean on an individual level as far as coverage now that we're down to drafting is normal, especially given that it's rather chaotic with all the various proposals out there.. on one hand, I really wish people wouldn't form opinions based on political ads but this *is* really complicated and hard to follow. But the majority nevertheless expressing their willingness to pay more is ... well. I would have thought that would have gone down, not up.

I think, Annelise, that the current shakiness we're seeing is the natural result of getting specific about reform. People always get nervous when you go from the abstract to the concrete, especially when it involves such an important issue. I am still confident that we'll get some useful reform, even if it has to be shoved down the throats of the Republicans.

[Dumas]

This might come a bit out of nowhere, but does anyone think that referring to this deal as 'health care reform' might be confusing some people? I mean, would the average person be more likely to think of doctors and hospitals or insurance companies when talking about health care (providers)? Someone's comment earlier about 'choice' and the constant need to reassure people that they'd get to keep their doctors made me think about that.

The problems with the health insurance as the system stands seem to be symptoms of more general problems with the corporate system and its emphasis on profit over everything else. Changing that would go a long way towards resolving a lot of other things.

[awesome possum]

You know, when I read political posts by guys like Commodore, BlauerDragon and Smashing Young Man I get angry at the vitriol and outright misinformation (a more pleasant way of saying lies). I get frustrated at the denial or straight up distortion of basic facts and truths. I want to reply and call them ugly names to match their ugly views.

Then I stop, take a breath, and relax. Sometimes I giggle and have to restrain the urge to go randomly high five someone. It's actually quite beautiful, because people like this are in control of the GOP right now. They are the ones who are trying to defeat health care reform. It's actually quite hilarious.

It's still frustrating, because like their real life counterparts, these guys still believe that distortion, misinformation and generally trying to be louder, meaner and uglier will help them win the day. But at the same time, they're relatively harmless. Let them yell and scream and throw their tantrums. Let them try to distort and lie and badger. It won't work.

They've lost, and ultimately it's kind of sad and pathetic because they refuse to believe it, or they got so used to having their own way during the Dubya years that they are acting like the spoiled brat who has had the run of the sandbox so long it literally hurts them to have to share.

I feel sorry for them, but I also love ridiculing them and their moronic, reality-blurring ways.

[Annelise]

Oh yeah, the recess war is on. Just got an email asking me to call my rep's local office and tell them I support reform. And they want me to let them know I called. Replied that we contacted him last week after he emailed constituents soliciting feedback.

ETA: Working on getting the husband to call anyway. :lol:

"Hmmm... it'd probably get me put on more Suckers' Lists".

"We are already on them all. It can't get worse. And hey, it's free!"

[Smashing Young Man]

You know, when I read political posts by guys like Commodore, BlauerDragon and Smashing Young Man I get angry at the vitriol and outright misinformation (a more pleasant way of saying lies). I get frustrated at the denial or straight up distortion of basic facts and truths. I want to reply and call them ugly names to match their ugly views.

Then I stop, take a breath, and relax. Sometimes I giggle and have to restrain the urge to go randomly high five someone. It's actually quite beautiful, because people like this are in control of the GOP right now. They are the ones who are trying to defeat health care reform. It's actually quite hilarious.

It's still frustrating, because like their real life counterparts, these guys still believe that distortion, misinformation and generally trying to be louder, meaner and uglier will help them win the day. But at the same time, they're relatively harmless. Let them yell and scream and throw their tantrums. Let them try to distort and lie and badger. It won't work.

They've lost, and ultimately it's kind of sad and pathetic because they refuse to believe it, or they got so used to having their own way during the Dubya years that they are acting like the spoiled brat who has had the run of the sandbox so long it literally hurts them to have to share.

I feel sorry for them, but I also love ridiculing them and their moronic, reality-blurring ways.

Yes, take a deep breath and go to your happy place full of forced giggles and high fives. The simple fact of it is, you see all the hopes and dreams you invested in Obama crumbling at a rapid pace; it enrages some of you and terrifies others. Even if Obama and Congress force something through despite the opposition, the consequences for them will be dire come 2010 and 2012 (never mind the consequences to this nation of such being passed).

Reality bites, eh?

[TheLoneliestMonk]

SYM,

What if the reform passes and it isn't as bad as you think? what if it helps? why are you so sure the reform will not be an improvement? why do you state random assumptions as facts? obama is crumbling? rapidly?

[LCOTNW]

Yes, take a deep breath and go to your happy place full of forced giggles and high fives. The simple fact of it is, you see all the hopes and dreams you invested in Obama crumbling at a rapid pace; it enrages some of you and terrifies others. Even if Obama and Congress force something through despite the opposition, the consequences for them will be dire come 2010 and 2012 (never mind the consequences to this nation of such being passed).

Reality bites, eh?

You sound like that Iraqi press secretary insisting that Iraq was still winning while the US tanks were rolling into Baghdad. HCR will happen, and it sounds to me like you are the one that is scared Chicken Little.

Also, nice prediction about the mid-term election breaking for the opposition party as it almost always does no matter what the situation. That link was from a nice conservative website, just to make you happy. For your next trick, why don't you predict whether the sun will rise tomorrow?

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Sotomayor confirmed 68-31.

[Shryke]

Just how "Along Party Lines" is that?