American Politics XIII

[Annelise]

Maybe I am missing your point here, but I thought we were trying to get a public option so that the millions of uninsured people in the country can get some very basic healthcare. So, if Congress went on the plan.... wouldn't they all just buy supplemental for whatever additional care they wanted just like everyone else who could afford supplemental insurance?

Sure. And they would be able to promote it to the public as something they will use as well (immediately).. considering that the public view of politicians is generally on the low side and that they are often seen as fat cats, out of touch and out for themselves, putting their money where their mouth, as Trencher put it, isn't a bad selling point. I would think it'd increase public confidence in reform.

[awesome possum]

So when a Republican on the Senate Health Committee (which is made up of 10 Republicans and 13 Democrats) proposed an amendment which would require all of Congress to fall under the same government run Healthcare option they are proposing for us common folk, how many Democrats voted for it?

So when a Democratic congressman proposed an amendment which would repeal Medicare, since so many Republicans are rabidly against government-run health care, how many Republicans voted for it?

[Annelise]

On Thursday, July 30th, the anniversary date of the enactment of Medicare, Rep. Weiner offered an amendment to HR 3200, America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, rhetorically proposing to repeal Medicare - that "socialist" government run health care system that has been so successful and is so popular with elderly Americans. Health Care -- 44 Years Of Medicare Success Time for Republicans to "put up or shut up." He of course was voting against it.

Congressman Weiner: "I dare you, I double dare you, vote yes on it, then go home and explain to your constituents how you're so philosophically opposed to publicly funded healthcare that you voted to eliminate Medicare on its 44th aniversary..."

As you might expect, not one GOP hypocrite took the rhetorical bait. They know full well that Americans love their Medicare. As described by Paul Krugman in a recent column Health Care Realities:

At a recent town hall meeting, a man stood up and told Representative Bob Inglis to “keep your government hands off my Medicare.†The congressman, a Republican from South Carolina, tried to explain that Medicare is already a government program — but the voter, Mr. Inglis said, “wasn’t having any of it.â€

It’s a funny story — but it illustrates the extent to which health reform must climb a wall of misinformation.

It's made funnier by the fact that 29% of Americans are on government insurance.

Rep. Weiner has also introduced an amendment to replace HR 3200, America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009, with a single-payer option.

Rep. Weiner agreed to withdraw his amendment in the House Energy and Commerce Committee when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi promised to allow a debate and vote on a single-payer plan for health care reform. Pelosi promises House will vote on single-payer healthcare reform.

http://arizona.typepad.com/blog/2009/08/re...115715fcb8c970c

[Centrist Simon Steele]

I hate democrats and republicans both, but I've come to recently think democratic leaders are far better than republican. The three I'm basing this off are the Clintons and Obama. I love Obama, I think he is fantastic--I feel like he is really trying to help me out much to the detriment of his reputation. Hillary is okay, she is smart and very capable. Bill just went to North Korea and saved a couple girls. The guy is awesome.

I want to be fair to the republicans but they are fucking out of control. Rush is a hypocritcal monster, Gingrich is a moron, Rove is a condescending prick, and Cheney is a sith lord.

And I am so sick of these righteous a-holes in town hall meetings preaching and screaming at the politicians. I mean politicians suck, but these Americans are just as fucking dumb.

[TrackerNeil]

Pathetic. We should all agree that anything we are forced to live with (even if it is "eventually"), the politicians and President should have to live with as well.

No one would be "forced to live with" anything. Those who wished to remain with their private plans could do so, and those who wished to switch to the public plan would have that choice. I thought you conservatives had a hard-on for choice.

Also, by your reasoning any rep who votes money for public schools should be forced to enroll their kids there, just as senators who back a resolution authorizing military action should be forced to enlist their own adult children. Is that what you're getting at?

[DanteGabriel]

Well, now a sitting US Senator and member of the Senate Finance Committee, involved with health care bill negotiations, is also spouting the "death panels" horseshit:

Unbelievably, one GOP senator who's been held up as a paragon of reason and bipartisan comity, Iowa's Chuck Grassley -- one of three Republicans negotiating with three Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee -- trashed Obama's plan today in terms that went beyond Sarah Palin's ignorant rant.

"There is some fear because in the House bill, there is counseling for end-of-life," Grassley told a town hall crowd. "And from that standpoint, you have every right to fear. You shouldn't have counseling at the end of life. You ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. You ought to plan these things out. And I don't have any problem with things like living wills. But they ought to be done within the family. We should not have a government program that determines if you're going to pull the plug on grandma."

"You have every right to fear." What a statesman! Where to start? There are at least five different healthcare reform bills vying for support, and their many provisions can be confusing, but there is not one sentence in any of the five that mandates either "death panels" or "pulling the plug on grandma" -- and Chuck Grassley knows that much much better than I do.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_s...assley_grandma/

Let's pull the plug on the GOP. They are not honest partners in governance. Just hacks and slaves of their own ignorant, reactionary base.

[LCOTNW]

No one would be "forced to live with" anything. Those who wished to remain with their private plans could do so, and those who wished to switch to the public plan would have that choice. I thought you conservatives had a hard-on for choice.

Also, by your reasoning any rep who votes money for public schools should be forced to enroll their kids there, just as senators who back a resolution authorizing military action should be forced to enlist their own adult children. Is that what you're getting at?

If anything, it should be the opposite. If you *cut* funding for public schools you should have to send your kids there. They would never cut funding below what is necessary to get a quality public education, would they?

[Annelise]

Well, now a sitting US Senator and member of the Senate Finance Committee, involved with health care bill negotiations, is also spouting the "death panels" horseshit:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_s...assley_grandma/

Just hacks and slaves of their own ignorant, reactionary base.

On this one, I actually think leadership is pulling the strings as part of their strategy to irrevocably turn voters against a public option during this absence of a specific bill. Essentially forcing Dems to fight the uphill battle against hardened opinions later. It's kind of a dangerous game, but at this point Americans are still clearly in favor of reform so it's not poisoning the whole well.

[TrackerNeil]

On this one, I actually think leadership is pulling the strings as part of their strategy to irrevocably turn voters against a public option during this absence of a specific bill. Essentially forcing Dems to fight the uphill battle against hardened opinions later. It's kind of a dangerous game, but at this point Americans are still clearly in favor of reform so it's not poisoning the whole well.

Although I myself favor a public option, it's not something worth trashing the entire reform. We can move one step forward now if we think that will make it easier to move two more steps later.

[Elrostar]

Well, now a sitting US Senator and member of the Senate Finance Committee, involved with health care bill negotiations, is also spouting the "death panels" horseshit:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/walsh/?last_s...assley_grandma/

This is the biggest canard out there. I simply do not understand why people would be opposed to someone being able to talk to a social worker about making a living will. What is so fucking wrong with that? Why would it be a BAD thing for people, as they get older, to be able to talk to a doctor, or social worker, about end of life decision before they come up, and to have this covered by insurance? How is this possibly a bad idea?

Saying this should be up to the families is all well and good, but no-one is proposing not letting families do this! They still can. This is simply allowing people another option! And it's not even saying that they can go do this every week. Nonono. It's saying that they can go do this once every five years. Because we wouldn't want people abusing this privilege, I guess. So we'll limit these sessions to once every five years, assuming the person is healthy.

So what is so fucking wrong with people getting some help in making these end of life decisions? Won't someone please tell me, because I'm really confused.

[Annelise]

Won't someone please tell me, because I'm really confused.

It's not being put to people that way; it's being deliberately demonized as something it's not. Ye old fear tactic.

I think Republicans have been successful reframing this debate in terms of anti-government during the Congressional recess. The big puzzler to me is the relative effectiveness of it. We've had government run health care programs for 44 years without euthanizing old people or forcing women to abort babies with birth defects. Medicare and Medicaid are popular, too. I would insulted and offended if a US Senator (of any party) tried to sell me that death panel line, for instance.

This isn't to say Obama and the Dems don't make their own misleading statements, by the way. They do, obviously.

ETA: FWIW my conservative friends said they have no issue w/reimbursing voluntary end of life counseling. They think it's a good idea for people to get such issues sorted out ahead of time, so no one has to make those decisions for them.

[The Progressive]

It's not being put to people that way; it's being deliberately demonized as something it's not. Ye old fear tactic.

I think Republicans have been successful reframing this debate in terms of anti-government during the Congressional recess. The big puzzler to me is the relative effectiveness of it. We've had government run health care programs for 44 years without euthanizing old people or forcing women to abort babies with birth defects. Medicare and Medicaid are popular, too. I would insulted and offended if a US Senator (of any party) tried to sell me that death panel line, for instance.

This isn't to say Obama and the Dems don't make their own misleading statements, by the way. They do, obviously.

ETA: FWIW my conservative friends said they have no issue w/reimbursing voluntary end of life counseling. They think it's a good idea for people to get such issues sorted out ahead of time, so no one has to make those decisions for them.

I think the ferocity and success of the propaganda is due to a confluence of several conservative movements: the hardcore partisans who just want Obama to fail, the racists, the anti-government wingnuts, the leeches who are currently benefiting from the failure of the healthcare system, the willfully ignorants who pretend to understand how US healthcare system currently operate, and the evangelicals who fear that more government health services mean that more women would have access to reproductive choices.

It's a perfect storm.

[VarysTheSpider]

The whole NHS 'death panel' has made some waves across the pond and is now fairly big news in the UK. First Twitter organised a campaign to support the NHS which the PM and Mrs. PM supported. Twitter crashed due to the flood of support apparantly. Then a pretty right-wing Conservative said on US TV he wouldn't wish the NHS on anyone, which in turn dragged the Conservative Party leader (whose family made a lot of use of the NHS before their child died) into the debate, defending it.

The whole thing seems a little surreal to me. No system is perfect and the NHS certainly isn't, but death panels? Socialism? Stephen Hawking's corpse? Very odd.

[Lyanna Stark]

US Rightwing attacks on the NHS now put political pressure on Conservatives in the UK to support the NHS

or lose votes!

Maybe Mr Brown should thank Mr Limbaugh, Ms Palin and their ilk since this is the best news for the British Labour party for months. :P

EDIT: Varys beat me to it.

[Galactus]

Aww, that's so cute.

[Annelise]

The whole thing seems a little surreal to me. No system is perfect and the NHS certainly isn't, but death panels? Socialism? Stephen Hawking's corpse? Very odd.

Yeah. I'd love a Stephen Hawking / Shepard Smith interview to show that he is in fact British and that you lot haven't put him down yet.

[Annelise]

My goodness... after a solicited email from me and a phone call from hubby, my Rep left message for us soliciting our opinions on healthcare reform. He clearly loves hearing from us, so I called this time. I would have thought they'd have a little list of questions since he's sending out robocalls asking for feedback, but no. Call just prompts you to think about what you think the problems are and what solutions you'd like to see, the rest is up to you. Free form, like.

[Annelise]

It looks like there's a plethora of "death panel rumors false" articles out there now (USA Today, CNN, MSNBC). Palin looks like she is especially catching shit for it, but I've seen others named as well. Grassley I guess is going to try to get any end of life counseling removed but the VP of AARP said he thought it was a good idea. Winning AARP's endorsement for (any) final bill would be big for the Dems, especially after this euthanasia craziness.

[Elrostar]

It looks like there's a plethora of "death panel rumors false" articles out there now (USA Today, CNN, MSNBC). Palin looks like she is especially catching shit for it, but I've seen others named as well. Grassley I guess is going to try to get any end of life counseling removed but the VP of AARP said he thought it was a good idea. Winning AARP's endorsement for (any) final bill would be big for the Dems, especially after this euthanasia craziness.

Yes, let's get rid of this terrible end of life counseling. Who could possibly need something like that?

Chuck Grassley, you should know better. Either you do, and you're shamelessly milking this for populist outrage, or you're genuinely clueless. If it's the former, you should be ashamed of yourself for acting in such an appalling manner. It is unbecoming of a senator, particularly at a time like this. Surely you could find it in yourself to actually treat this debate with the respect that it deserves and argue the issues on their merits, rather than on made up hyperbolic rhetorical points which serve only to further the already polarized debate?

Or maybe you really don't understand. Maybe you genuinely are that clueless. In which case your staff is apparently also incapable of informing you of how these things work. Which as I understand it is their fucking job. That's what they're supposed to do. Tell you what things are about so you can understand it and make decisions, statements and help create policy. So is your staff composed of nothing more than a band of feral rabid chipmunks?

Stop acting like a fucking moron and start treating this debate like it matters. Because it does.

I just listened to To The Point from yesterday, where they had on a number of interesting people talking about morality and religion and health care reform, and it simply blew me away how one of the guests was talking entirely out of his ass. Bill McCormack seemed to honestly believe that the current state of healthcare was both fantastic and covered everyone, that health care wasn't a right but a privilege in any case, so if people weren't covered, it wasn't a big deal, and that HCR was a way to have government take over OUR ENTIRE LIFE through socialism. He made claims about rationing being used as a term in "the health care bill", and when challenged on this said "it's right here on page XXX". When asked which bill he said "you know, the bill that's up for vote in the House", although he clearly didn't actually know which bill he was talking about, and also had to backtrack and admit that the word ration wasn't actually used. But it was clearly implied, he was sure. Whereas now, he can get any procedure he needs (he claimed).... because.... wait for it. He's on MEDICARE!

Yes, the last thing we need is people running Medicare like it's some kind of government program. God, that would totally suck.

[Foreverlad]

Dick Armey is leaving his firm

Former House Majority Leader Dick Armey (R-Texas) is resigning from DLA Piper law firm amid a wave of negative attention his grassroots organization, Freedom Works, has drawn for helping to organize protesters at health care town hall meetings with members of Congress.

“The firm is busy with its business, and shouldn’t be asked to take time out from their work, to defend themselves of spurious allegations,†Armey said. “No client of this firm is going to be free to mind its own business without harassment as long as I’m associated with it.â€

:lmao: