SPOILERS: The Gathering Storm by Jordan and Sanderson

[Lord Biff]

So what's the situation at the Black Tower? Taim has fled? And "purged" all the rest of the trainees leaving himself with a super-charged group of trainees/dreadlords...

No, CrazyRand stripped the Black Tower of most of the people who aren't Taim's men.

That's why Logain is so agitated in COT and KOD, because he's the only person who seems to get that having Taim walking around is an unmitigated disaster. Even Cadsuane doesn't really acknowledge the danger, or perhaps decides that it takes a back seat towards curing CrazyRand.

[lylii]

Rand is almost definitely going to die though. He fulfilled the Prophecy about the walking stick and the beggar's robe in this book, which was what people were holding onto to suggest he might live after the Last Battle. I think not.

I'm not so sure he is going to die. I know, I know, foretellings are hard to understand but I think for this specific point the foretelling by Nicola is quite important:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." (Lord of Chaos Chapter 14)

How I understand this is Elayne, Aviendah and Min are on a boat with Rand who is dead yet lives. The Final Battle is done but the world is still divided. The very interesting thing about this quote is in The Gathering Storm I swear I remember the Aiel talking about not being finished with the Seanchan. As I recall they were very upset about the Seanchan having the Aiel Wise Ones that Perrin allowed to be captured. Additionally, I remember other people discussing "after" the Final Battle. This almost makes me believe that the final battle will be at the end of this second book and perhaps beginning of the third book with all this extra stuff being alluded to being taken care of at the end of the final book. This is purely speculation, of course, but it seems a hell of a lot of foreshadowing is being done for after the Final Battle.

Well the Seanchan vs Aes Sedai and the rest of RandLand, if it goes on after the Last Battle probably means Mat will be leading the Seanchan, betraying his family, most of his friends, his friends children (Rand and Elayne/Aviednha children will probably be channelers).

Do you think this could be about the Aelfinn when they tell Mat in one of their answers that he will have "To give up half the light of the world to save the world!"?

To give up half the light of the world, to save it.... To give up his life in Randland and become part of Seanchan? Or is there a greater meaning in the word world? I don't know I have to think about this one. Or could it be backwards and Mat would have to give up a part of the light in the world (ie his love for Tuon) to help save the world?

I've also been thinking about Min's views of Alivia and the latest information that Min was finding out about Callandor. Rand is going to HAVE to trust two women to the task of helping him either A.) Defeat the Dark One or B.) Seal the Bore. Alivia I think is one of those woman who will be with him when he has to use Callandor. The second woman I thought at first would be Nynaeve but I have my doubts about Nynaeve because I think she will be at Lan's side in the Final Fight. That leaves one other female that is very strong in the One Power and someone that he trusts. Currently, it seems like Egwene and Rand will be a similar make up between Lews Therin and Latra Posae Decume. In a way (although I have no proof whatsoever) I feel that maybe Egwene is Latra reborn much like Rand is Lews Therin reborn. So I don't think Egwene is that other woman either.

Lastly, I think its funny that the Chosen call the time when the Dark One breaks free "The Return" and the Seanchan call their arrival to Randland "The Return."

Edit: I just thought of something... perhaps Elayne will be the other woman with Rand when he uses Callandor. The only reason I think that is because of Eladia's Foretellings that the Royal line of Andor is key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle (The Shadows Rising, Chapter 1).

[Lord Biff]

Actually, considering RJ was planning a Mat/Tuon adventure series, I'm pretty sure Tuon decides to say, fuck this shit, I'm retaking the *good* continent in this fucking world, and takes Mat with her to reconquer Seanchan.

[MaesterLuwin]

Edit: I just thought of something... perhaps Elayne will be the other woman with Rand when he uses Callandor. The only reason I think that is because of Eladia's Foretellings that the Royal line of Andor is key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle (The Shadows Rising, Chapter 1).

Elaida had this Foretelling when Mordrellin was still on the throne. It refers to Rand, who is Tigraine's son and Mordrellin's grandson. Elaida got it wrong.

Although Elaida's actions in regard to this Foretelling never made much sense anyway. It just hit me - if she believes the Trakands are the key to winning the Last Battle, why does she keep trying to arrange Gawyn's death?

[Lord Biff]

Elaida had this Foretelling when Mordrellin was still on the throne. It refers to Rand, who is Tigraine's son and Mordrellin's grandson. Elaida got it wrong.

Although Elaida's actions in regard to this Foretelling never made much sense anyway. It just hit me - if she believes the Trakands are the key to winning the Last Battle, why does she keep trying to arrange Gawyn's death?

Because Elaida is clearly the bastard child of an unholy union between Cersei and Catelyn.

Bitch is that stupid.

[lylii]

Because Elaida is clearly the bastard child of an unholy union between Cersei and Catelyn.

LMAO! xD Well put!

Elaida had this Foretelling when Mordrellin was still on the throne. It refers to Rand, who is Tigraine's son and Mordrellin's grandson. Elaida got it wrong.

Ahh yeah, I knew I didn't think that through enough :(

[fionwe1987]

Although Elaida's actions in regard to this Foretelling never made much sense anyway. It just hit me - if she believes the Trakands are the key to winning the Last Battle, why does she keep trying to arrange Gawyn's death?

Elaida is Red, remember? According to her fanatical thinking, only the female Trakands are important, especially one who will be Aes Sedai.

[lordofavalon]

the more i think about it, the more i dislike the reveal of verin being black and having known nearly all the names.

in the entire 70 years, she didn't have a single opportunity to snag the oath rod? and she was able to make all the hearts? eh.......

not to mention we got point of view thoughts, and she never once thought about being forced to swear to the dark one

[Slick Mongoose]

in the entire 70 years, she didn't have a single opportunity to snag the oath rod?

I don't think she had any desire to remove her oaths, until the last moment. If the blacks had found out she was oath-free (by her face), or bound by the normal three oaths (if she can't lie or kill, i'm guessing the black would notice), she'd have been screwed.

and she was able to make all the hearts?

She took 70 years, she has her compulsion trick, she reached very near the top of the BA and she's very clever. I don't think it's that unbelievable.

not to mention we got point of view thoughts, and she never once thought about being forced to swear to the dark one

That would rather have ruined the surprise. ;)

Personally I thought it was one of the best scenes of the series.

[Arataniello]

the more i think about it, the more i dislike the reveal of verin being black and having known nearly all the names.

in the entire 70 years, she didn't have a single opportunity to snag the oath rod? and she was able to make all the hearts? eh.......

not to mention we got point of view thoughts, and she never once thought about being forced to swear to the dark one

I will need to go back and look at her PoVs - see if she thinks about "the Dark One". Because I know for a fact that she NEVER mentioned "the Great Lord" in any of her PoVs, as this would have been picked up immediately by readers.

Interesting to find out (if we ever can) if Verin being Black was RJ's intented outcome of her storyline, or something else.

[Daeric]

I have to say I really enjoyed the book, through I do think there is something wrong with me, as when Rand Balefired Gren all I could think about was BOOM HEADSHOT.

[ljkeane]

I finished it Yesterday. I really was somewhat nervous about the quality of the book after having read Pat's opinions but I have to say I really enjoyed it. It's definitely a far stronger book than PoD, WH or CoT.

It was great to see a WoT book concentrate on Rand to a significant degree again and I feel the book was far stronger for it. Also probably for the first time ever I actually enjoyed the Egwene chapters, which is a bit of a relief because I wasn't really looking forward to the amount of time devoted to them in this book.

On the characters I felt all them except Mat were very well depicted by Sanderson and as others have said about the issues with Mat, while Mat did feel a bit off I don't think the problem is irretrievable.

Regarding what actually happened in the book I was expecting Mat to rescue Moiraine in this book and ultimately her being alive was going to help Rand solve his issues so I was pretty suprised that Rand appears to solve them himself. I think it will be interesting to see what role Moiraine will have now.

I also agree with others that Graendal being dead seems far from guaranteed.

Overall I have to say that Sanderson did an excellent job and I'm very pleased with how the series is progressing. :)

[Slick Mongoose]

Interesting to find out (if we ever can) if Verin being Black was RJ's intented outcome of her storyline, or something else.

I don't think there's any chance that Sanderson would change anything that major.

[Arataniello]

I have only read the first few chapters, although I did jump ahead to read chapter 39 after seeing the title. So far one of the major things that has jumped out at me is that Sanderson does like to throw in whole paragraphs of questions, as characters ponder their situation. It's kind of annoying.

[Poobah]

I liked the greater amount of introspection, actually.

[MaesterLuwin]

I will need to go back and look at her PoVs - see if she thinks about "the Dark One". Because I know for a fact that she NEVER mentioned "the Great Lord" in any of her PoVs, as this would have been picked up immediately by readers.

Interesting to find out (if we ever can) if Verin being Black was RJ's intented outcome of her storyline, or something else.

In Lord of Chaos, she thinks about how Rand has messed up her plan that dates back seventy years. In Path of Daggers, Verin thinks about how she made a very serious mistake seventy years ago. In The Great Hunt, she actually tells a lie, which readers have been attempting to justify for almost twenty years now. She thinks in Winter's Heart that if they captured a Forsaken, it could prove "quite useful" - possibly in regards to her collecting Black Ajah names? She gives Egwene the dream ter'angreal in TDR, but not the notes that go along with it, as she was trying to keep the middle ground between her Black Ajah orders and her orders from Siuan to help the Black Ajah hunters.

So all the signs were there. Verin never thinks of the Dark One as the "Great Lord" or the Forsaken as "Chosen". But there are other examples of Black Ajah members who do this, and Verin's thoughts can at least be justified by the fact that she was never really working for them.

Also, in regards to plotting, I'm still constantly surprised at how well RJ plotted out the whole series. Take Min's viewing from TFOH, regarding Sheriam: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant".

Compare to Sheriam's execution in TGS: "That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind - her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head."

That's right, RJ had not only planned Sheriam to be Black Ajah, but left clues (if somewhat vague ones) as to the manner of her death fifteen years prior.

[Lord Biff]

I will need to go back and look at her PoVs - see if she thinks about "the Dark One". Because I know for a fact that she NEVER mentioned "the Great Lord" in any of her PoVs, as this would have been picked up immediately by readers.

Interesting to find out (if we ever can) if Verin being Black was RJ's intented outcome of her storyline, or something else.

As Maester Luwin says, there is an extremely simple explanation for her continuing to think of the Dark One as the Dark One.

Once she was placed in the position where she could join the BA or be painfully murdered, she decided to join and became a mole. Thus she never quit regarding him as a bad dude.

In fact, we can see over and over again - and this is what prompted things like "Is Verin Purple Ajah?" - that she's doing very dubious things but, at the same time, when it matters she steps up for the Light in a big way.

By the way, what's incredible about this is *not* that Verin managed to collect everyone's names. Remember, in no more than a few months, the BA Hunters got several names, including Galina's, and had Galina been in the Tower - as a member of the Supreme Council - she could have given them pretty much the entire membership.

What *is* incredible is that Verin managed to piece together the *leadership*. I'm overwhelmingly impressed that she essentially figured out who - most likely - the top three members of the Supreme Council were. We can guess that these women were at the top because Alviarin states that only a very few number of the Supreme Council know who she is. Galina clearly does, and my guess, based on the reaction of Sheriam to Egwene's revelation, Sheriam does too, because she clearly knew Verin was BA, even if she never suspected her to be a potential mole. I have a feeling that she would have recognized pretty much anyone in the organization.

Thus Alviarin, Galina, and Sheriam were most likely the leaders, and Verin knew this *without* being on the Supreme Council herself. This, for me, is beyond awesome, and it demonstrates that Moghedien and Graendal together have got nothing on Verin, despite their superior strength and knowledge of the Power.

[lordofavalon]

In Lord of Chaos, she thinks about how Rand has messed up her plan that dates back seventy years. In Path of Daggers, Verin thinks about how she made a very serious mistake seventy years ago. In The Great Hunt, she actually tells a lie, which readers have been attempting to justify for almost twenty years now. She thinks in Winter's Heart that if they captured a Forsaken, it could prove "quite useful" - possibly in regards to her collecting Black Ajah names? She gives Egwene the dream ter'angreal in TDR, but not the notes that go along with it, as she was trying to keep the middle ground between her Black Ajah orders and her orders from Siuan to help the Black Ajah hunters.

So all the signs were there. Verin never thinks of the Dark One as the "Great Lord" or the Forsaken as "Chosen". But there are other examples of Black Ajah members who do this, and Verin's thoughts can at least be justified by the fact that she was never really working for them.

Also, in regards to plotting, I'm still constantly surprised at how well RJ plotted out the whole series. Take Min's viewing from TFOH, regarding Sheriam: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant".

Compare to Sheriam's execution in TGS: "That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind - her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head."

That's right, RJ had not only planned Sheriam to be Black Ajah, but left clues (if somewhat vague ones) as to the manner of her death fifteen years prior.

true.. it makes sense with everything we've read about verin.. but the pov trap made me upset I guess. We'll see how i feel on a re read.

but where was it said she worked her way to the top? And if she was always going to be betray the black ajah.. why not give the list to siuan when she found the dragon had been reborn?

and the sheriam thing.. wow! did not pick that up at all. thats amazing. RJ truly is a genious.

[Lord Biff]

true.. it makes sense with everything we've read about verin.. but the pov trap made me upset I guess. We'll see how i feel on a re read.

but where was it said she worked her way to the top? And if she was always going to be betray the black ajah.. why not give the list to siuan when she found the dragon had been reborn?

and the sheriam thing.. wow! did not pick that up at all. thats amazing. RJ truly is a genious.

Because she realized that the 70 year plan needed to take a backseat to keeping Rand alive, and later, curing CrazyRand of his insanity.

This is why she decided not to poison Cadsuane. It wasn't just that she realized Cadsuane wasn't Black, it was that she realized that Cadsuane was pretty much unlike any other AS but probably Moiraine (and herself, to an extent) in that she was manipulative, but she was doing this because she wanted above all to get Rand to the Last Battle safe and healthy.

Not, like Elaida, because she wanted glory, but because she genuinely was willing to sacrifice to keep Rand from completely turning into CrazyRand, which he did for most of this book. And, in the end, her gambit worked, albeit in a way I doubt anyone expected, including Cadsuane.

[Arataniello]

I liked the greater amount of introspection, actually.

It wasn't the amount of introspection that I minded, it was the way that Sanderson wrote it. I remember at least two paragraphs (one in Rand's first chapter, one in Egwene's I think) where 5 or 6 questions are just strung together.