SPOILERS: The Gathering Storm by Jordan and Sanderson

[Poobah]

All things considered I don't think the reaction to Gawyn's sudden badassitude is helped by the fact that he's the single most fucking annoying character in the entire series and the one who deserves most to die ingloriously to a festering toe wound or something. I kinda thought that showing him to be a badass was Sanderson's attempt to stop everyone hating him, in my case that's gonna be a massive backfire, because now I hate him more.

[ljkeane]

I hadn't devoted a lot of time to caring about Gawyn either way up till this book but the several chapters of him being very irritating which serve no apparent purpose hasn't helped my opinion of him.

[Ran]

You know, I've never disliked the character, so that part of things isn't a factor. It just feels like ... fanboyism gone rampant. Winning once against Sleete and the Warder after a hard fought match would have been bad-ass enough for my tastes.

[Daena the Defiant]

All things considered I don't think the reaction to Gawyn's sudden badassitude is helped by the fact that he's the single most fucking annoying character in the entire series and the one who deserves most to die ingloriously to a festering toe wound or something.

Wait, you want to let him off easy?

[The Real Will]

I've read it, and I've got concur with everyone who's said it was the bed book since CoS--not to damn the book with faint praise. I think it's probably an indication of how things have turned around that I didn't spend the whole time reading it keeping track of how many pages were left and mentally calculating whether it will be sufficient for anything interesting to happen. I didn't get that sinking feeling at the 3/4 mark as I realised that once again has there not only been a lot of waffle, but that waffle isn't going to lead to much of anything. When I realised that Mat wasn't going to get anywhere near the ToG, I didn't care, because I was confident it would happen in the next book and meanwhile stuff was getting done elsewhere.

Having read this, I'm now reasonably content that cutting the book in three was the right choice. Sure, it could probably be done in two but only if you cut away every single sentence that wasn't vital to getting Rand to the Last Battle, and that's a book I wouldn't be as interested in reading. I admit that when RJ said he was going to finish it in one more volume I was worried that it was going to be rushed. But judging by the first one, three books seems about right to me.

That's not to say that the pacing here is perfect. There is some filler and some other parts which could have done with a little more detail. As people have said, most of Mat, Perrin and Gawyn's points of view weren't absolutely necessary. But the Gawyn chapters were the only ones I personally would cut out and that's because I think he's a nonce, and not in any way enjoyable to read about. The Perrin chapter were few and sufficient just to touch base, and I actually enjoy the Mat chapters. It's true that the Mat chapters are the most notably different, but I think that's largely due to a different sense of humour between Jordan and Sanderson. I think the Mat we know is still there, he's just stuck in some weird double act with Talmanes.

I really enjoyed the entire tower storyline. Even if I worry that Egwene is in danger of going beyond Mary-Sueness and entering into the scary world of Richard Rahlness. She really is just a little bit too perfect and everyone around her just a little bit too incompetent.

I loved Verin's reveal, even if I think the loophole in the oath that allowed it was just a little bit convenient (really, the Dark One knew about the loophole but didn't think anyone would use it? Even if that's true, why not just write the oath without the loophole. It's not like it would be difficult). Still, one of the more satisfying conclusions to a dangling plot thread in this book.

I'm of two minds about Graendal's death. On the one hand, the plan was sensible. It's the kind of thing that a sensible Dragon ought to be doing. But on the other hand it isn't terrible narratively satisfying. I can't really think of a way to keep the same plan but make the outcome feel more significant...

A similar things with Semi. It would have been nice if she'd had Rand captive a little longer. It would have added significantly to her death and also lent a deal more import to Rand's use of the true power... But I'm hardly in a position to grumble about wanting more content in this bloody series.

I agree with Ran that Gawyn's super-awsome-badassness does seem a bit fanboyish (and all the more so because Gawyn is an unrepentant pillock). It's not that Gawyn shouldn't be good (or even exceptional) with a sword. It's that he's insanely good. He ought to encounter some difficulty fighting another blademaster. Especially when the other guy has help. But the I suspect that the most fanboyish moment of the entire book was Tam's slap down of Cads. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but what fan of the series hasn't been dying to see someone tell Cads that she's a bully.

All in all, excellent work by Sanderson. I eagerly await the next volume.

[Guest Ro_]

Regarding the Sleete name thing - Sanderson had a charity give away thingie for people to have their names in the books so there probably will be more odd sounding names.

[elmis]

I'm not greatly surprised by Gawyn's skill, as such (though personally I had always supposed Hammar and Coulain weren't fighting at their best against their own students), but it seemed a bit much to show how good he was by having him beat a blademaster _and_ a trained Warder at the same time. It sort of cheapens what a blademaster is, in a sense. I mean, when Lan killed Toram, at least he was wounded, but here there's no question at all that Gawyn pwns Sleete and the other guy together.

Perhaps it's true, that there's a greater variation among blademasters than one originally thought. But then, Sleete was able to beat Lan on occasion, so he's supposed to be pretty far up there. Now I see on Dragonmount that people are supposing Gawyn is second only to Lan. It feels like there's inconsistencies creeping in because of Sanderson deciding -- I can only imagine some of these things are his decision -- to throw three-four new blademasters into the mix just like that.

And yeah, what Nadie says, re: Galad. Lan going through the forms and cutting a grasshopper in half with barely a pause was one of the defining images of Jordan's very wuxia/chambra-style fantasy uberswordsmanship. The other was Galad slicing through dozens of rioters without mussing his hair. I'm going to guess that Gawyn is better than Galad now, through more practical experience ... but again, the fight against Valda resulted in wounds. I think that's how I'd generally prefer to see contests between blademasters in the series -- it's a hard, close-run thing unless you're Lan; and a blademaster with backup would certainly be almost insurmountable odds, not the cakewalk Sanderson seems to make it out to be with Gawyn.

I totally agree with this.

We don't really know what happened when Gawyn fought Coulain and Hammar, but seeing as it was a full on battle at the time I imagine that either of them could have been tired when they faced Gawyn, or even had cuts from prior battles. I always assumed that it was a tossup that Gawyn won these fights - don't get me wrong, RJ obviously wants him to be a very good swordsman but from the other duels we've seen (Toram v. Lan, and Galad v. Valda) both sides have taken wounds.

I didn't like the Sleete + one fight at all. It seemed way too over-the-top for me. Whats wrong with just fighting this Sleete guy? When else have we seen someone train against two other swordsmen (other than Rand in LoC - from which he gets a talking to by Bashere). Not to mention that both these guys are warders, with the extra 'oomph' that adds to stamina, reflexes and whatnot.

Kind of makes me wonder now, how many more blademasters we've met who are only now going to be named as blademasters without warning? Maybe Agelmar Jagad?

I think there is a prolouge POV from when the Borderlanders meet, that the Queen of Kandor(?) looks at Jagad and notes that he is not a Blademaster like some other guy in her crew, but that he could wield all of the dosen weapons he has on him/his horse with deadly skill - taking this straight from memory so bear with me if that isn't correct.

Minor stuff, really, but annoying for a parts-of-the-series-fanboy!?

Seemed a bit like that to me too, though I wasn't keen on the scene where Galad breaks the Prophets men either. One guy dancing about the ragtag crew versus a wall of skilled soldiers just meatgrinding them down. If they don't break from the latter, Galad would have had to have dress up like a clown with a chainsaw attachment to break them - not just another guy kwith a sword, slicing at them.

[Ran]

About Hammar and Coulain, what I'm specifically thinking of is that it must have been difficult for them to not hesitate -- even a tiny, tiny bit -- against their former students. It was an ugly situation, and no room for sentinment, but there it is. But yeah, who knows, we don't know precise details.

I recall the line about Jagad, but I don't think it refers to blademasters at all. Just says that he's hung about with a bunch of weapons and looks like sudden death waiting to be unleashed... which could mean blademaster, I suppose, although generally we've yet to meet a blademaster who really uses anything other than the sword. I just got to the part where Narishma was talking about the fact that as a youth he could beat 80% of soldiers from southern lands in duels. Jeez. Wonder why we haven't met more Borderlander blademasters? Sounds like they're the baddest of the bad.

And finally, Galad... I think it was the fact that he waded right into the thick of the fighting, and cut down dozens of men -- basically everyone in reach of his sword -- without mussing his hair that broke them. Wasn't he like forty or sixty feet from everyone else when the thugs broke and ran, a litter of bodies marking where he had passed? That'd certainly lead me to soiling my pants! The Shienaran meatgrinder was effective, but slow -- the thugs in the back could keep pumping themselves up, waiting to jump in, divorced from the slaughter by rows of men. But there was no safety anywhere from Galad. Nasty. And uber! Never read badassery like that again until Erikson came along and upped the ante (and upped it, and upped it, and upped it some more just to make sure..)

[alguien]

And finally, Galad... I think it was the fact that he waded right into the thick of the fighting, and cut down dozens of men -- basically everyone in reach of his sword -- without mussing his hair that broke them. Wasn't he like forty or sixty feet from everyone else when the thugs broke and ran, a litter of bodies marking where he had passed? That'd certainly lead me to soiling my pants! The Shienaran meatgrinder was effective, but slow -- the thugs in the back could keep pumping themselves up, waiting to jump in, divorced from the slaughter by rows of men. But there was no safety anywhere from Galad. Nasty. And uber! Never read badassery like that again until Erikson came along and upped the ante (and upped it, and upped it, and upped it some more just to make sure..)

This past Sunday, while recovering from Halloween night, my flatmate and I watched Troy. The scene when Achilles (Brad Pitt) jumps off the boat and wades into literally 30 Trojans, gracefully killing most of them in minutes, is the closest visual I could think of when thinking of how it could be possible for pretty Galad breaking the Prophet's men. There was a certain economy in the actor's movements that made the scene almost beautiful to watch. Have to give the stunt coordinator credit. Anyway, that's what I think of when I picture Galad's uber-scene.

ps. instead of Sleete, why not Raen or Hale? Or even Snow? ;) Even then name Precipitaet would have been better.

[Ran]

Nadie,

That's, like, one of the two scenes I like in that blasted movie. Man-killing Achilles storming the beach, slaughtering every step of the way, was a terrific bit of fight choreography, and yeah, sort of gets the idea across. (The other scene I like is Priam's discussion with Achilles).

[the silent speaker]

ps. instead of Sleete, why not Raen or Hale?

Because Raen follows the Way of the Leaf, duh. ;)

[elmis]

And finally, Galad... I think it was the fact that he waded right into the thick of the fighting, and cut down dozens of men -- basically everyone in reach of his sword -- without mussing his hair that broke them. Wasn't he like forty or sixty feet from everyone else when the thugs broke and ran, a litter of bodies marking where he had passed? That'd certainly lead me to soiling my pants! The Shienaran meatgrinder was effective, but slow -- the thugs in the back could keep pumping themselves up, waiting to jump in, divorced from the slaughter by rows of men. But there was no safety anywhere from Galad. Nasty. And uber! Never read badassery like that again until Erikson came along and upped the ante (and upped it, and upped it, and upped it some more just to make sure..)

I guess it isn't implausible to do that, but I still can't get myself to like that scene.

Take the Narishima example, he could best 4/5 southerners when he was a youth, just because he's a borderlander.

Another example is when Bryne and his crew is arriving at Salidar, the Warder who gives the report to the Aes Sedai council there says "they have the look of veterans, worth 5 times their number in younger men".

So, we got Uno and his crew of borderlander veterans - that's gotta be some hard ass soldiers (doubting Jagad would send his rubble after the horn), against a mob of farmers, and Galad, who's had 1.5-2 +/- year(s) of of proper sword training, is what really breaks them? Before that we've had what, four-five references as to his growing skill with the sword - chief among them is that he beat Hammar three out of five times.

In my opinion, the best piece of badassery in WoT is when the Hartha (that ogier deathwatch guard) says to Musenge that they can kill as many of them as needs to be killed once they've found Tuon. Them being other Seanchan soldiers who were a little too lippy.

[Ran]

Oh, it's highly implausible to do that. That's why it's wuxia/chambra badassery -- it's fantastic. But that's clearly the way RJ was thinking.

Speaking of younger men, another example of Sanderson pumping Gawyn up: without Gawyn, the Younglings are no more than "youths" who should be on the "sparring field, not the battlefield" or some such. Err... what? Dudes have seen more combat and have killed more Aiel than most men twice their age at this point, but no, they're super-awesome only when Gawyn is around.

I just don't get it. I think maybe RJ's plans pushed Sanderson into a corner with Gawyn? A shame. I can see why people hate him even more when he seems to be, literally, Sanderson's incomparable Golden Boy. Dialing it back a bit, and keeping him in a sense of actually being in danger on occasion, would have been nice. As I've said, I don't dislike Gawyn myself, never have, but it starts to feel ridiculous.

Gah. Bitching about such a tiny thing. Heh. On the whole, while I am still skimming it -- the prose is largely not offensive, but it doesn't hold itself to special attention either -- I am largely liking what I see. RJ's outline obviously included a lot of action, and Sanderson's doing a pretty good job of pacing it out (for someone who is skimming it). But Mat ... Mat's all wrong. He needs to really work on his approach to Mat for the next book.

[Galactus]

I think there is also the point that the Shienarans are standing there, doing their thing. Basically anyone that comes close to them is dead, but they're doing a fighting retreat kind of thing.

Then out of nowhere comes this whirlwind of death who isn't just doing the thing they're doing but doing it *while on the move*.

[Hedge_Knight]

About Narishma's comment about swordplay, remember if Andor calls out its full strength Elayne said they could match the quarter million the borderlanders have in KoD. But the professional soldiers will be the Queen's guard and the retainers of the nobles, in other words 20,000-30,000 men. So we have what 220,000 out of 250,000 who really aren't soldiers. There's your over 80%. The other southern nations are all similar, a small elite plus some noble retainers and then militia and half-trained peasants. The Borderlands don't really have any choice but to train the vast majority of their citizens. So Jahar, even without the One Power, is still a trained soldier, and therefore far superior to the average soldier in the south, who isn't trained. There's really nothing surprising about that.

[Hedge_Knight]

Gawyn might have been downplaying the Younglings to keep Bryne from chasing as hard to kill his friends. It might not actually be Brandon trying to make Gawyn overly badass

[elmis]

Oh, it's highly implausible to do that. That's why it's wuxia/chambra badassery -- it's fantastic. But that's clearly the way RJ was thinking.

Speaking of younger men, another example of Sanderson pumping Gawyn up: without Gawyn, the Younglings are no more than "youths" who should be on the "sparring field, not the battlefield" or some such. Err... what? Dudes have seen more combat and have killed more Aiel than most men twice their age at this point, but no, they're super-awesome only when Gawyn is around.

I just don't get it. I think maybe RJ's plans pushed Sanderson into a corner with Gawyn? A shame. I can see why people hate him even more when he seems to be, literally, Sanderson's incomparable Golden Boy. Dialing it back a bit, and keeping him in a sense of actually being in danger on occasion, would have been nice. As I've said, I don't dislike Gawyn myself, never have, but it starts to feel ridiculous.

Gah. Bitching about such a tiny thing. Heh. On the whole, while I am still skimming it -- the prose is largely not offensive, but it doesn't hold itself to special attention either -- I am largely liking what I see. RJ's outline obviously included a lot of action, and Sanderson's doing a pretty good job of pacing it out (for someone who is skimming it). But Mat ... Mat's all wrong. He needs to really work on his approach to Mat for the next book.

When we're left to bitch about the tiny things it's usually a sign of a good book. I really enjoyed it, but WoT will always be special for me, warts and all, as it was the first fantasy ('cept for Tolkien) series I read.

Not really sure what wuxia/chambra is?

Did you notice the error in the Mat chapter? He's all like: "I won't leave anyone to this!" and jumps off his horse to save that guy, but they apparently left the three soldiers he had tasked with looking after the Aes Sedai.

On a whole different note, I read somewhere (might even have been here?) that during a book signing Sanderson had been asked if all the grain going bad, and the land being barren had to do with the Dark Ones touch, and he told the fan straight out that it wasn't the Dark One, but rather Rand. Apparently RJ had left strict notes that one Prophecies of the Dragon was cause of it.

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land."

The colder and harder Rand grew, likewise did the land. Clears a bit up, as the world has gradually become more and more harsh as Rand proceeded to "harden himself". To think all that weevil fluff finally has a meaning.

[elmis]

So Jahar, even without the One Power, is still a trained soldier, and therefore far superior to the average soldier in the south, who isn't trained. There's really nothing surprising about that.

Not to nitpick, but Narishma specifically says he was just a commoner (cobbler or whatever), and still could beat trained soldiers.

[Ran]

Hedge Knight,

Actually, Narishma's precise remark is: "I could best four out of five trained southern soldiers in a duel." Emphasis mine. If he's making the same distinction as you are, then he's just talking about professional fighting men. Now, we see that the Queen's Guard in Andor, and doubtless most other similar bodies, the common guys don't enter trained in fighting. They're recruits, and they get trained as young men to combat. Whereas Narishma's been training all of his life.

That's an interesting view of what Gawyn was doing there. But I don't actually think he was -- he doesn't really make any reference to it. He thinks of Gareth's honor, and he thinks of the need to offer him something... But maybe that's all.

[murphy]

All things considered I don't think the reaction to Gawyn's sudden badassitude is helped by the fact that he's the single most fucking annoying character in the entire series and the one who deserves most to die ingloriously to a festering toe wound or something. I kinda thought that showing him to be a badass was Sanderson's attempt to stop everyone hating him, in my case that's gonna be a massive backfire, because now I hate him more.

It seems to me that Min had a viewing of Galad with Berlain. Don't you think that's bad enough?