SPOILERS: The Gathering Storm by Jordan and Sanderson

[the silent speaker]

And if she was always going to be betray the black ajah.. why not give the list to siuan when she found the dragon had been reborn?

Because she wanted to make her list more thorough before handing it off. Hour of her death, remember?

[Xanrn]

Aren't they more like Imperial China, with the familial infighting, the royal family isolated from the common people, etc.?

Either way, they offer an interesting contrast to the Western influenced Rand-land. While there is the reprehensible slavery, even slaves are upwardly mobile, and can be freed quite easily.

The only truly disgusting aspect of the empire is their treatment of channelers.

No not all Slaves are upwardly mobile, so'jihn are upwardly mobile, da'covale are pretty much fucked. Dacovale outnumber So'jihn by alot. You only have to look at the way they treat the Children of the Light they captured in their attack on the Citadel of Light, even after the Children swear to them, they still keep the ones who DEFENDED their home against invaders, in chains and use them as a work force. Its the same with the Seafolk, they role into Ebou Dar and capture aload of Seafolk who just happen to be in port, they kidnap and torture the windmistress and when their clans try to fight back. They murder the leaders and enslave the rest.

The Seanchan treat there commoners just as bad as Randland, they beat them for meeting their eyes and where in the books was it stated Seanchan nobles couldn't kill commoners without retribution?

The last "rebellion" on the Seanchan continent ended with 35,000 dead rebels and 1,500,000 enslaved...

There is lots of disgusting aspects to the Empire.

The whole Slavery system they have, it doesn't matter if some of them can earn their freedom, its still sick. Let alone going into the slave labour, pretty slaves used as living art which BTW is exactly what Graendel does, she just uses saidar and they use torture. The whole damane thing is beyond disgusting, if torture, slavery, brainwashing and mutilation used as punishment doesn't make the Seanchan evil, wtf does exactly.

Apparantly you don't think murderomg and enslaving people who refuse to bow down to you and hand over their family and friends for the above treatment is disgusting, I on the other hand do.

They have a seceret police, which spies on everyone and uses torture very liberaly. Which is pretty much the KGB with Ravens.

Yes some of the countries in Randland are shitholes, but the Seanchan Empire is still worse.

The Seanchan Empire has a low private crime rate, but the Goverment more than makes up for it with its crimes.

The Borderlands on the other hand are very nice places to live if you take away the rampaging cannibilistic mutant armies.

Do you see Andor rampaging into the Two Rivers, killing thousands and enslaving the rest.

Hell do you any of the other nations doing that?

[Lord Biff]

I'd say it's pretty easy to say that a totalitarian state, like Seanchan, can have a lower crime rate among citizens than others.

But a far, far, far greater number of crimes committed against the people by the state.

[Slurktan]

No not all Slaves are upwardly mobile, so'jihn are upwardly mobile, da'covale are pretty much fucked. Dacovale outnumber So'jihn by alot. You only have to look at the way they treat the Children of the Light they captured in their attack on the Citadel of Light, even after the Children swear to them, they still keep the ones who DEFENDED their home against invaders, in chains and use them as a work force. Its the same with the Seafolk, they role into Ebou Dar and capture aload of Seafolk who just happen to be in port, they kidnap and torture the windmistress and when their clans try to fight back. They murder the leaders and enslave the rest.

Yes some of the countries in Randland are shitholes, but the Seanchan Empire is still worse.

The Seanchan Empire has a low private crime rate, but the Goverment more than makes up for it with its crimes.

The Borderlands on the other hand are very nice places to live if you take away the rampaging cannibilistic mutant armies.

Do you see Andor rampaging into the Two Rivers, killing thousands and enslaving the rest.

Hell do you any of the other nations doing that?

How did you expect their conquered opposing armies to be treated? Don't forget the fall of the Citadel of Light was at best 6-7 months ago. That isn't that long of a time particularly since they had tried to rebel after the conquest as well. And the Aiel do it. Da'Covale aren't that much different than Gai'Shan until their year is up.

The Seanchan Empire I agree though is absolutely awful to their nobility and upper class. The common folk absolutely love it though and why not? There isn't common folk da'covale, those come from political enemies. They get fed regularly and policed efficiently so that there isn't much of a worry for common folk.

[Lord Biff]

How did you expect their conquered opposing armies to be treated? Don't forget the fall of the Citadel of Light was at best 6-7 months ago. That isn't that long of a time particularly since they had tried to rebel after the conquest as well. And the Aiel do it. Da'Covale aren't that much different than Gai'Shan until their year is up.

The Seanchan Empire I agree though is absolutely awful to their nobility and upper class. The common folk absolutely love it though and why not? There isn't common folk da'covale, those come from political enemies. They get fed regularly and policed efficiently so that there isn't much of a worry for common folk.

Err, no, the Aiel most certainly don't, not to foreigners.

The practice of turning Randlanders into Gai'shan was what signified that the Shaido had broken with ji'e'toh.

Moreover, it was unease over this that underlay at least part of the motives of those who helped Faile and her crowd.

[Mag The Mighty]

im just happy to see sanderson wrapping up plot lines that have gone on for way to long. everything was just going on way to long. too many books with the same disheveled unfinished story lines. i just like seeing alot of theese wrapping up. i mean in the first chapter faile 86ing mausma. just made me happy. they are wrapping it up, peice by peice. that was the main problem was it was just to much... too much shit that i dont want to read 18 chapters about when it coulda been done in 3. just glad to see things finally getting resolved. kill bitches and conquer lands lets get this Final battle started already. ehh?!?!?

[the silent speaker]

I'm not sure exactly what your beef is here, Xanrn. So the Seanchan aren't portrayed as Always Chaotic Evil. So what? Both Jordan and Sanderson make it unmistakably clear that they are Sometimes Chaotic Evil. How many times did people say that if not for the Last Battle the Seanchan's treatment of channelers especially would make for ten blood feuds?

[Slurktan]

Err, no, the Aiel most certainly don't, not to foreigners.

The practice of turning Randlanders into Gai'shan was what signified that the Shaido had broken with ji'e'toh.

Moreover, it was unease over this that underlay at least part of the motives of those who helped Faile and her crowd.

That wasn't what I was referring to, nor did Xanrn make it all about foreigners either. And do the Seanchan actually consider the inhabitants of Randland that aren't Sharamen and Aiel foreigners? They think they are oathbreakers but otherwise just the same, see Tuon's treatment of Beslan and Suroths of Tylin previously. To compare, the Aiel certainly act towards other clans much as the rest of Randland acts towards various countries. For example comparing say Andormen and Illianers is analogous to comparing Taardad and Reyn. And the Aiel pretty much can and do enslave any other Aiel that isn't a child/blacksmith/wise one for a year and a day.

Regardless it's an ..... interesting take to say the Seanchan are evil considering that unlike in our world there is actual certified evil to compare it to.

[Lord Biff]

That wasn't what I was referring to, nor did Xanrn make it all about foreigners either. And do the Seanchan actually consider the inhabitants of Randland that aren't Sharamen and Aiel foreigners? They think they are oathbreakers but otherwise just the same, see Tuon's treatment of Beslan and Suroths of Tylin previously. To compare, the Aiel certainly act towards other clans much as the rest of Randland acts towards various countries. For example comparing say Andormen and Illianers is analogous to comparing Taardad and Reyn. And the Aiel pretty much can and do enslave any other Aiel that isn't a child/blacksmith/wise one for a year and a day.

Regardless it's an ..... interesting take to say the Seanchan are evil considering that unlike in our world there is actual certified evil to compare it to.

To quote, (dammit!) the Wise Ones, it ain't slavery, it's ji'e'toh.

The central difference is that Gai'shan are not possessions.

You can do *whatever you want* to your da'covale including rape them or kill them. It would certainly result in lowered eyes, but it is considered completely understandable for da'covale to be killed for pretty much any reason.

Do you know what happens if you kill a Gai'shan?

It is considered the functional equivalent of killing a child - or being a Darkfriend - and your own first-brothers and first-sisters will kill you to try to atone for your crime.

For the most part, Gai'shan are prisoners of war. Under the Aiel de facto Geneva Conventions, this is what happens to prisoners. It's a ridiculously lenient system, since you can't just decide at the end of a year and a day, well, he was way too good a tactician to let him go back to the Goshien, so I'm instantly making him Gai'shan again. You gotta send your Gai'shan back to their septs first.

[MaesterLuwin]

Keep in mind that the Aiel aren't blameless, though. They show a lot of honor toward their own people, but hold most of Randland in disdain. Remember when Couladin murdered all those townsfolk on his march to Cairhein? Even relatively "good" Aiel like Rhuarc and Aviendha remarked that they were only Treekillers, and didn't deserve to be mourned. Anyone wetlander is not a gleeman or peddler in the Waste is fair game to be attacked, or at least stripped of their clothes and left to the elements.

Also, the Aiel want to be able to take the "fifth" wherever they go. They may not make wetlanders gaishain, but they have no problem with imposing their system of taking the "fifth" on others who do not believe in this practice. They got it in Tear and Cairhein, and wanted to do so in Andor and Arad Doman.

I think part of RJ's take on the whole thing is that these systems of honor work very well among societies in which that system is fully integrated, but they collapse when imposed on societies that don't believe in the same system.

[Ser Howsmelly]

I think part of RJ's take on the whole thing is that these systems of honor work very well among societies in which that system is fully integrated, but they collapse when imposed on societies that don't believe in the same system.

Very very original and insightful thought....... very.

[Slurktan]

To quote, (dammit!) the Wise Ones, it ain't slavery, it's ji'e'toh.

The central difference is that Gai'shan are not possessions.

You can do *whatever you want* to your da'covale including rape them or kill them. It would certainly result in lowered eyes, but it is considered completely understandable for da'covale to be killed for pretty much any reason.

Do you know what happens if you kill a Gai'shan?

You just made my point for me. When a Seanchan noble mistreats a da'covale it lowers their eyes. What does mistreating a Gai'Shan do to Aiel? It essentially lowers their eyes in Aiel speak. It's the same thing no matter how you want to dress it up with technicalities. And they aren't possessions? If an Aiel is gai'shan to another and then that other gets made gai'shan does the first then suddenly go free? No.

And I haven't even remotely gone into Aiel making people da'tsang.

[Guest Raidne]

All that I really want from a Wheel of Time book is for bad ass shit to happen, and for some mysteries to be answered. Most of the books I didn't care for were lacking on both counts, but this time, I got my fill.

There were also some extra nice touches, like the zombie village in the mountains in the Mat plotline. I agree that maybe Sanderson had a little much fun writing the Mat parts, but I didn't mind.

A question - will Perrin and Mat live past the last battle? I especially wonder about Perrin. And I think Nynaeve and Alivia will wield Callandor with Rand.

And I agree that the Dark One's plan is to get Rand to end the world; break the wheel. And I also think that Rand is, yes, merged with LTT now, but he still has to work out the connection with Moridin, and they may also merge still, somehow.

[Lord Biff]

You just made my point for me. When a Seanchan noble mistreats a da'covale it lowers their eyes. What does mistreating a Gai'Shan do to Aiel? It essentially lowers their eyes in Aiel speak. It's the same thing no matter how you want to dress it up with technicalities. And they aren't possessions? If an Aiel is gai'shan to another and then that other gets made gai'shan does the first then suddenly go free? No.

And I haven't even remotely gone into Aiel making people da'tsang.

No, Slurktan, you don't just lose face if you mistreat a gai'shan.

Aiel culture accepts corporal punishment for pretty much everyone. That isn't what mistreating a gai'shan is.

If you rape or kill a da'covale, it's a embarrassment because it means you're a shitty master.

If you rape or kill a gai'shan, you're beyond an embarrassment: you've committed a crime that carries the Instant Death Penalty that Aiel society prescribes for only two other offenses: killing a child (and presumably a blacksmith or Wise One); and being a Darkfriend.

Yes, you've got some serious shame. But Aiel society prescribes a judicial punishment for those who mistreat gai'shan. There isn't *anything* like that in Seanchan.

Like I said before, this is the difference between Prisoners of War and Slavery. Under the Geneva Convention, Enlisted Prisoners of War can be impressed for labor; officers are exempt. *No* Prisoner of War can be executed without committing a serious crime, like murder. Escape, by contrast, is not an execution-worthy offense, which is why the Germans got into so much shit for executing the Great Escape bunch and others.

Meanwhile, if you look at a chattel slavery system like, say, the one in the US, you had the ability to rape or murder your slaves at will because *they were not people*. Furthermore, if someone *else* raped or murdered your slaves, you could press charges or sue them in civil court because the offending party had damaged your possessions, in the same way you could sue somebody for killing your horse.

It's really, really stupid to make anything other than a superficial comparison between gai'shan and da'covale.

[Poobah]

You never responded to my asking why/how you can hold Randland's governments up as shining examples of good governance.

In Andor were it not for a whim of the Queen, her advisor would have had one of her subjects imprisoned and tortured on another whim. In Tear we hear reports of High Lords free to rape and generally do whatever the hell they want to their serfs. In Cairhien the population was largely abandoned by its monarch and starving. In Tarabon we see again starving population, hordes of people living and dying as beggars on the streets of Tanchico. Arad Doman and Tarabon are too busy constantly warring with oneanother to give a crap about the people of Almoth Plane, and elsewhere we see whole swathes of land with absolutely no governance (for ex, in TGH when Rand and co. travel south to Cairhien, Almoth Plane, even the Two Rivers) and/or no protection granted to them by whichever country technically holds them on the map, whether it be protection from Trollocs, Darkfriends, Bandits or Whitecloaks. Speaking of which the Whitecloaks are a fanatical military organisation who answer to no one but themselves and are in full control of one country and able to travel freely and harass anyone they can get their hands on in most other countries, and when I say harass I mean imprison and torture on the barest suspicion.

[Bronn Stone]

Also, in regards to plotting, I'm still constantly surprised at how well RJ plotted out the whole series. Take Min's viewing from TFOH, regarding Sheriam: "Rays of silver and blue flashed about her fiery hair, and a soft golden light; Min could not say what it meant".

Compare to Sheriam's execution in TGS: "That scene would always be vivid in Egwene's mind - her former Keeper, lying with her head pressed against the stump, blue dress and fiery red hair suddenly bathed in warm golden light as a thinner section of clouds moved in front of the sun. Then the silvery axe, falling to claim her head."

That's right, RJ had not only planned Sheriam to be Black Ajah, but left clues (if somewhat vague ones) as to the manner of her death fifteen years prior.

I am not convinced that this is evidence of any brilliant foresight by RJ but more yeoman-like work by Sanderson. Cleaning up details in visions previously given. There is nothing in that vision that suggests Min is seeing Sheriam's eventual execution as Black. BS could have written a scene where she saves a puppy from drowning and that vision came true in the process.

The Verin 70-year plan was clearly 100% RJ though. Lots of good clues in retrospect.

[MaesterLuwin]

I've had time to reflect and re-read some chapters. This was a very good book, and I must say that Sanderson's prose was not nearly as jarring as I feared. I got used to it very quickly. His sentences are shorter, his dialogue more fast-paced, but nothing seemed terribly out of place. I'll agree with others that Mat was the character who seemed the least like his former self - what was up with that strange buddy comedy routine between Mat and Talmanes? But Rand, Egwene, Siuan, Cadsuane, Nynaeve all seemed right on.

Most of all, I liked that the book had a narrative arc, with a beginning, middle, and end for both Rand and Egwene. I appreciated that the grand finale was not another Forsaken showdown, but Rand's reunion with Tam. I guess some people didn't like this, but I thought it was well-done and very effective. In fact, a lot of Rand's scenes were effective, and sad to read about, like when he told Nynaeve his plan to let Lan die, or when he treated Hurin like crap.

Perrin's and Mat's chapters were kind of useless, but they didn't take up too many pages. Looks like Perrin is going to man up and actually progress beyond his one-track-Faile mindset, which is nice.

I guess Graendal's death was sort of an anti-climax, but that has happened before in the Wheel of Time. See also: Sammael.

Some smaller things got addressed that made me happy. For example, the Aiel are pissed at Rand after he ignored them for all of six books or so. This makes sense, and I'm glad it was brought up. Also, Egwene finally realizes how much it must have sucked for Rand to be placed in a box and beaten for days. I'm glad at least one character figured out that this might be a valid reason as to why Rand is so paranoid, anti-Aes Sedai and generally loony. Finally, I'm glad that someone brought up that Min's viewings and the foretellings are invalid if the Dark One break free and destroys the Pattern. I got tired of Elayne in the last book, who interprets Min's viewings of her healthy children to mean she is immortal until those children are born.

Sanderson said that two main plotlines are taken care of in this book, and two more in the next book. What are those other two? Surely, Mat is one. Is the other the Black Tower rift? Something with Perrin and the Whitecloaks? An actual truce with the Seanchan? The Borderlanders?

I made a list of plot points I'd like to see resolved in the last three books. My synopsis of What Got Dealt With In This Book:

Rand

-The Balefire Paradox between him and Moridin needs to be taken care of - Looks like things are going to get worse before they get better with this one. Rand can barely channel anymore, and keeps getting drawn to Moridin in the dreamworld. On the plus side, I'm glad to see the Rand-Ishamael talks coming back.

-"Twice dawns the day" that he sheds his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul

-He will "face the Amyrlin and know her anger" - Egwene seems ready to blame him for letting the Asha'man bond some Aes Sedai. Nevermind that Rand didn't order this, and actually tried to make up for it, and all the Aes Sedai who got bonded were trying to gentle those Asha'man...sigh.

-"To live, you must die." - Alivia is going to help him die, somehow. -I suspect this has to do with the three becoming one, but I'm not certain how this is going to work.

-Min's viewing of a bloody hand and a hot iron (this relates to Elayne in some way)

-Min's viewing of a beggar staff; Perrin's dream of him as a blind beggar - It's implied in this book that the whole "blind" thing was Rand not thinking about WHY he was doing any of this.

-3 women on a boat with Rand

-Cadsuane's lesson to Rand and the Asha'man - Her lesson worked with Rand. Or, the one-two double punch of Hurin and Tam brought Rand back to reason. But that was close there, for a minute.

Mat

-He will go to the Tower of Ghenjei, and the Thom/Moiraine plot will be resolved. (On a side note, hopefully we'll find out what happened to Lanfear and Moiraine once beyond the door). - This looks to be one of the central plots for the next book.

-He will lose an eye.

-Something concerning two Aes Sedai on a balance scale. (This might have already happened, but I don't think so) Something is suspicious with Joline/Teslyn/Edesina. I'm not sure what, but I get the feeling that their presence is not entirely superfluous to the plot. Perhaps one is Black Ajah?

-He will give Rand Aludra's gunpowder inventions. - Well, he's working hard at getting this done.

Perrin

-Perrin needs to save Rand's life once more

-Perrin will get the Broken Crown, somehow

-Min's viewing about trees and flowers (again, some think this has been fulfilled. I don't think so)

-A resolution to the Faile/Berelain plot, probably having to do with Berelain's "man in white" - Very little Perrin in this book, though we get hints that he's doing something interesting with Galad. I suppose we'll find out in the next book.

The Last Battle

-The day will dawn twice, or something like that

-What Herid Fel meant in his last note / Why will Rand break the seals? - More hints from both Min and Lews Therin. Women have to be involved in sealing the prison somehow? I'm not sure how this is going to work. My own loony pet theory is that Padan Fain will be the new seal for the Dark One's prison.

Egwene and the Tar Valon crowd

-Egwene will be in a dire situation, where Gawyn can choose to save her or let her die - Did this happen? Siuan seemed more instrumental in launching Egwene's rescue then Gawyn. I suppose it can be argued that, without Gawyn, they wouldn't have found Shemerin and thus found out about the entrance to Tar Valon. Looks like Egwene is pissed at Gawyn, regardless. She still has to bond him at some point, but I'm sure we'll get one or two Egwene chapters in the next book.

-Egwene is connected to a Seanchan with a sword - Nope, strangely enough. Will there be more Seanchan attacks? They have Traveling now.

-The Seanchan attack Tar Valon - Yes, dealt with.

-Siuan and Gareth need to be close to one another or else they will die - Taken care of.

-Who is beating Sheriam? - Aran'gar.

-The exact purpose of the Too-Young Sitters conspiracy needs to be dealt with. This relates to the Ajah heads all plotting with one another. - They were trying to run the show and got burned. Pretty much what everyone suspected, but nice to see that confirmed.

-Resolution of the plot with the Black Ajah searchers in the White Tower. - I guess they helped gain support for Egwene in the Tower? I'm not sure why I spent the last five books reading about this subplot when nothing really came of it.

The Forsaken

-Mesaana's secret identity - No idea. At the end, Egwene keeps bringing up the fact that someone named Evaneillen fled the Tower, even though she wasn't on Verin's list. Is she Mesaana?

-What has Demandred been up to? - Just some hints in the Prologue. Looks like he's with the Borderlanders or in Murandy.

-Who is masquerading as Sammael?

-Who killed Asmodean?

Other Bad Guys

-What is Padan Fain's role in all of this?

-What is Slayer up to? What happened to Luc and Isam in the Blight that made them into Slayer?

-What are Masema's plans? Why has he been meeting with both Aes Sedai and the Seanchan? - Well, Masema's gone. I hope we find out why Annoura and crew were meeting with him in secret, or why he was hanging out with the Seanchan.

The Black Tower

-What is Taim up to? - I don't know, but neither the Rebel Aes Sedai or the Red Ajah Aes Sedai have come back.

-Logain's future glory - Where the hell was Logain in this book?

-The Black Tower split; Elaida's viewing of it "rent in blood and fire"

Miscellaneous Allies:

-The Borderlander army. What are they after? - If there is not some surprise waiting for Rand when he finally meets with them, I'm going to be very disappointed. The fact that they have 13 Aes Sedai with them is brought up AGAIN, so this must have something to do with it.

-Jain Charin/Farstrider's backstory. Where has he been since Ishamael used him?

-Who are the Aes Sedai at the Silver Swan?

-What is Verin up to? What's her 70 year plan? - Resolved, amazingly enough.

-Elayne's children. (Possibly Aviendha's, as well)

-The "remnant of a remnant" of the Aiel that will be saved. (I'm guessing this is Therava's group, but this might not be the case)

-Galad and the split in the Whitecloaks - Looks like Perrin is hanging out with Galad, but other than that we don't know what's going on.

-Loial, the Ogier, and the Book of Translation

-Narishma "following after" Rand. (This might have already happened when he used Callandor during the Cleansing)

I have a few unresolved questions from this book. What the hell is in that letter that Verin gave to Mat? She didn't know where it was Mat or Perrin coming, so it can't be Mat-specific.

How did Cadsuane know that Tam was with Perrin? There's something strange about all this, and I think a crucial scene was edited out. Sulin was with Perrin at the beginning of the book, for example, but later shows up with Rand's crowd. Was there some sort of communication between Perrin's Aiel and Rand's Aiel?

What is that dark aura that keeps popping up around Rand? It's something everyone can see. Is this related to his bond with Moridin, or just a general sign that he's going crazy?

"The three become one" - Because the characters seem to think that this involves Rand linking with two women to wield Callandor, I'm guessing that it means something completely different.

Finally, Min's viewing of Nynaeve kneeling over a corpse. Lan's? Rand's? I'm guessing that Rand will come back to life in a Christ-like fashion.

[Arataniello]

The Forsaken

-Mesaana's secret identity - No idea. At the end, Egwene keeps bringing up the fact that someone named Evaneillen fled the Tower, even though she wasn't on Verin's list. Is she Mesaana?

Evaneillen is a Sitter for the Gray in the Tower Hall after Siuan Sanche was disposed.

http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Evanellein

She could be Mesaana, or she could simply have fled the Tower because she was a supporter of Elaida.

[Bronn Stone]

Finally, Min's viewing of Nynaeve kneeling over a corpse. Lan's? Rand's? I'm guessing that Rand will come back to life in a Christ-like fashion.

Perhaps something to do with stepping outside the Wheel of Time. This might also explain the two dawns thing.

[Slick Mongoose]

I have a few unresolved questions from this book. What the hell is in that letter that Verin gave to Mat? She didn't know where it was Mat or Perrin coming, so it can't be Mat-specific.

Unless she wrote one letter in case it was Perrin, and one in case it was Mat. :)