American Politics XXI

[The Iceman of the North]

60 Minutes tonight had this very interesting story tonight on the end of life. The most interesting line I thought was when the guy says "Every other industrialized nation on Earth has set a limit to how many taxpayer dollars it can spend on health." That was paraphrased, but it was the essence of the quote. I thought that was interesting because we hear so often the line " Every other industrialized nation on Earth has universal coverage." That line is also true, but to what extent could the two be related?

I believe that quote is a load of bullocks. There is of course a limit as there's not an infinite amount available, but I doubt any nation with UHC puts up a limit at the start of the year of how much they will spend that year. They may have a budget, but they don't stop treating people if they spend the budget.

I have a serious question though. I hear a lot of people talking about rationing Medicare (and Health Care in General). How would you propose that it should be rationed? Who gets to live? Who has to die? How would you determine who was worthy of receiving treatment, how long they would have to wait for treatment, and when they would get cut off from treatment?

Lay it out for me, in the simplest terms possible. I would like to understand this argument, but it always strikes me as something seriously evil.

Others have replied to you, but I'll do it as well anyway. For one, there is a rationing today, so it's not like it's something new. The difference between the current system and the proposed system, is that today you get treatment if you can afford it or have a health insurance willing to cover it, with the new system it's rationed based on 'need' - that is those that need treatment the most are prioritised over those that can wait for treatment.

[Galactus]

Superman has this to say about the issue.

[sToNED_CAT]

US might have a problem to pay the debt interest in 10 years.

Story

Congrats Regan, Bush&Obama, there's no way US will be able to pay 500 billion$ more than today just on interest.

[The Iceman of the North]

Congrats Regan, Bush&Obama, there's no way US will be able to pay 500 billion$ just on interest.

Why not? All they have to do is print enough money to pay the interest. ;)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Iceman,

Why not? All they have to do is print enough money to pay the interest. ;)

Which will have significant consequenses for everyone, other than the government itself, as we have discussed before.

[TrackerNeil]

I don't get the resistance to allowing illegals to participate in government exchange or whatever. Either way we're treating these people when they get sick; we may as well let them pay into the system to help cover costs. I suppose we could tell hospitals to let people die in the ER parking lot unless they can produce proof of legal residence, but for some reason I don't think most Americans will go for that.

[mcbigski]

There is no doubt that all of the bills are going to expand coverage. The question is what else they are going to do. If long term costs can be cut while expanding coverage we should be able happy.

And if we can all lose weight by eating more, that'll be spiffy. I just can't believe we'll get a free lunch by spending a couple of trillion dollars.

I don't get the resistance to allowing illegals to participate in government exchange or whatever. Either way we're treating these people when they get sick; we may as well let them pay into the system to help cover costs. I suppose we could tell hospitals to let people die in the ER parking lot unless they can produce proof of legal residence, but for some reason I don't think most Americans will go for that.

I'd prefer to not have illegals at all. The US ought to overall the entire visa system - let companies hire as many foreign workers as they like, so long as they have tax ID numbers and pay into the system. We'd almost certainly need a two tiered system of benefits for citizen versus non-citizen public benefits if we'd be serious about making this proposal cost effective, but emergency trauma care could be extended to everyone. If non-citizens didn't like the overall comp from their private employer and the modest social benefit safety net they could stay home.

[sToNED_CAT]

I don't get the resistance to allowing illegals to participate in government exchange or whatever. Either way we're treating these people when they get sick; we may as well let them pay into the system to help cover costs. I suppose we could tell hospitals to let people die in the ER parking lot unless they can produce proof of legal residence, but for some reason I don't think most Americans will go for that.

This is logical, but only if you accept that illegals aren't going anywhere. But if you want to force them to go away you shouldn't encourage them to stay by offering them welfare, participation in healthcare system, schools etc. You need to make their life more miserable than in their home countries, otherwise they will keep coming. That means no jobs, no welfare, no (or just very basic, life saving) healthcare, no schools for their kids, no ability to open bank account, no driving licenses, nothing. If they have nothing to gain by being in US, they will leave alone without deportation and associated costs.

It's basically short term benefit vs long term benefit. In short term if they participate in exchanges the taxpayers will pay less for emergency HC. In long term it will just encourage more of them to come, taking american jobs and driving down the wages, which means higher unemployment and higher taxes to cover those unemployed and underemployed.

[Shryke]

I'd prefer to not have illegals at all. The US ought to overall the entire visa system - let companies hire as many foreign workers as they like, so long as they have tax ID numbers and pay into the system.

This already happens. Illegals are actually a sort of net gain to the government, since they pay taxes but generally don't use almost any services.

[The_BlauerDragon]

This already happens. Illegals are actually a sort of net gain to the government, since they pay taxes but generally don't use almost any services.

:o

This is actually quite opposite from my experiences. I have known quite a few people in my life that were here illegally (including a couple that later became legal). The one thing that I can state as a constant is that they paid very little (if any) taxes (most did as much of their shopping as possible in places where the sales tax was ignored because there was no business license), and they used LOTS of services. Everything that they could possibly get their hands on, in fact.

One man, that I worked with for over 2 years, had become legal by joining the National Guard. He had no interest in the U.S. or being a U.S. citizen, it was a means to an end. He paid taxes on his wages (and got it all back in his annual tax return), but he lived in a small apartment with 4 other men. His wife and children were still in his home country, but he'd brought them up with him briefly so that she could sign up for welfare (that way, he didn't have to pay for food) and HUD (which paid the rent on the apartment - I think it was actually one of his room-mate's wives that signed up for that). His plan was to work in the U.S. for 6 years and then retire to his home country. We stopped working together when he retired and moved back home at the age of 28. He'd had some serious debates about retiring on schedule there at the end, because he'd found a program that would give him a free house. He passed on it because he would have had to live in it for 5 years before he would be able to sell it. He could have made a nice little profit (well, the housing collapse hit 3 years later, so probably not) but he just could not stomach the thought of being in this country any longer. He truly hated it. He'd done his 6 years, and he was ready to go home.

[Ormond]

:o

This is actually quite opposite from my experiences. I have known quite a few people in my life that were here illegally (including a couple that later became legal). The one thing that I can state as a constant is that they paid very little (if any) taxes (most did as much of their shopping as possible in places where the sales tax was ignored because there was no business license), and they used LOTS of services. Everything that they could possibly get their hands on, in fact.

One man, that I worked with for over 2 years, had become legal by joining the National Guard. He had no interest in the U.S. or being a U.S. citizen, it was a means to an end. He paid taxes on his wages (and got it all back in his annual tax return), but he lived in a small apartment with 4 other men. His wife and children were still in his home country, but he'd brought them up with him briefly so that she could sign up for welfare (that way, he didn't have to pay for food) and HUD (which paid the rent on the apartment - I think it was actually one of his room-mate's wives that signed up for that). His plan was to work in the U.S. for 6 years and then retire to his home country. We stopped working together when he retired and moved back home at the age of 28. He'd had some serious debates about retiring on schedule there at the end, because he'd found a program that would give him a free house. He passed on it because he would have had to live in it for 5 years before he would be able to sell it. He could have made a nice little profit (well, the housing collapse hit 3 years later, so probably not) but he just could not stomach the thought of being in this country any longer. He truly hated it. He'd done his 6 years, and he was ready to go home.

If you thought this man was committing welfare fraud, why didn't you turn him in?

And I really don't think someone who was only here for six years, left at age 28, always planned for his stay to be temporary, and "truly hated" being in this country is the typical sort of "illegal immigrant".

P.S. And what Shryke says below; didn't catch that his NG service had made him "legal" the first time.

[Shryke]

We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants.

The guy you describe is a LEGAL immigrant.

[The_BlauerDragon]

We are talking about ILLEGAL immigrants.

The guy you describe is a LEGAL immigrant.

Good point.

I have known illegal immigrants as well who have taken full advantage of benefits such as Welfare and housing programs. That one example was just a case of someone that I knew that thoroughly abused the system (and really opened my eyes to just how easily it can be abused).

Oh, and I reported him for the welfare abuse 3 times (shortly after meeting him). Nothing ever came of it.

I also reported a co-worker that was illegal once. He was deported on Friday afternoon and was back to work on Monday morning. Fat lot of good THAT did.

[Shryke]

Good point.

I have known illegal immigrants as well who have taken full advantage of benefits such as Welfare and housing programs. That one example was just a case of someone that I knew that thoroughly abused the system (and really opened my eyes to just how easily it can be abused).

Oh, and I reported him for the welfare abuse 3 times (shortly after meeting him). Nothing ever came of it.

I also reported a co-worker that was illegal once. He was deported on Friday afternoon and was back to work on Monday morning. Fat lot of good THAT did.

Welcome to the Immigration problem!

You deport them, they just hop right back over the boarder.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Welcome to the Immigration problem!

You deport them, they just hop right back over the boarder.

I made the point earlier (I've made it many times) that if our immigration system was more sensible (as in less expensive, less time consuming, less confusing, and less restrictive) then we wouldn't have as much of an issue. If it were easier to immigrate legally, then we could start truly looking at those coming here illegally as criminals.

I know I have stated the bad sides, but there are good too. Not all of the illegal immigrants that I have known were scum. The almost all abused the system, but you can hardly blame someone for taking full advantage of something when you make it so easy to do so.

I have known many Legal immigrants as well. My Step-mother immigrated here from Germany. It took her about 20 years, numerous trips back to Germany (because every INS appointment they ever made with her required her to physically appear at an INS office in Germany), and thousands upon thousands of dollars. That, to me, is simply retarded! I look at cases like hers and think, "Well, no wonder people come here illegally. Who'd want to go through all of that?"

[TrackerNeil]

This is logical, but only if you accept that illegals aren't going anywhere. But if you want to force them to go away you shouldn't encourage them to stay by offering them welfare, participation in healthcare system, schools etc. You need to make their life more miserable than in their home countries, otherwise they will keep coming. That means no jobs, no welfare, no (or just very basic, life saving) healthcare, no schools for their kids, no ability to open bank account, no driving licenses, nothing. If they have nothing to gain by being in US, they will leave alone without deportation and associated costs.

I'm not certain if we should formulate national policy predicated on making people miserable, and I wonder if we could make things worse than what some of these folks left behind. Keep in mind also that US business likes the presence of illegals, which is one of the reasons the GOP couldn't come up with any rational policy to deal with them.

In any case, I prefer to deal with circumstances as they are. Illegals are here, there are significant constituencies that want it that way, we'll never deport them all, and Americans just won't stand for letting them die in the gutters. I think the debate should proceed from that point.

[TerraPrime]

I'm not certain if we should formulate national policy predicated on making people miserable,

We're a bit late for that.

[Max the Mostly Mediocre]

I'm not certain if we should formulate national policy predicated on making people miserable, and I wonder if we could make things worse than what some of these folks left behind.

Yeah. If someone is willing to walk across a fucking desert in order to find a new home, um, they must have pretty good reasons for leaving their old one.

And yes, not all illegals come from, or travel through, Mexico, and not all of those who do walk, and so on. A not insignificant number do, however.

[The Progressive]

It was some article stating, that extending health coverage to illegals would be good thing. The numbers were from 2007. I was unable to google that article, but I found a study from 2001 that uncompensated care was worth 34.5bil $ in that year or 2.8% of total HC spending. That's simply not enough to significantly affect total HC costs.

link

Therefore, the current projections are wrong and extending coverage to the uninsured wouldn't be too costly?

That's great news!

The total HC cost could be reduced by other means, including slashing physicians' reimbursement and medicine payment.

[tzanth]

I love Glenn Beck. The more involved in politics he gets the better; everything he does will simply drive the republicans further into the fringe. It's a win-win for the democrats.