American Politics XXI

[DanteGabriel]

52% of republicans think ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama. :lmao:

You may laugh, but this indicates a desperately weird and fucked up dynamic in the country's right wing. It would be like finding out that 52% of Democrats believe Bush set up 9/11.

[TrackerNeil]

52% of republicans think ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama. :lmao:

If so, then I hope they are never disabused of that notion. Come 2012 they'll still be focused on bashing ACORN and not stopping the Obama reelection machine, which is just what I want to see. I like my enemies deluded and mistaken.

[Frog Eater]

52% of republicans think ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama. :lmao:

And within that story, 26% of the country believes Obama stole the Election. That is mighty high for an uncontedted result.

[awesome possum]

Scot,

If another nation wants extradition, so be it. I'm asking what happens if no nation will take them, no extradiction is requested, and they are aquitted?

So, I take it nations have been clamoring to take Gitmo detainees? We've had no difficulty in getting nations to accept back men who have been detained at Gitmo?

My point about nations not takeing Gitmo detainees is to show few nations have been willing to accept these guys.

It seems like you're intentionally being obtuse here, or, as Sword said earlier, simply being contrary for the sake of being contrary so that you can continue to ask rhetorical questions that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

If these men are acquitted and no other country requests extradition, they can be deported to their home country or to where they were picked up. Simple as that. The plane lands, they get off and what happens, happens. Countries not wanting Gitmo detainees has absolutely nothing to do with this, as they're detainees and these would essentially be free men.

I also think you're skewing Holder's original comments for the sake of attempting to score political points. I never saw Holder's comments as saying, "these guys will stay in prison no matter what happens" but, "these guys are, without a doubt, going to be found guilty."

YMMV, of course, but it seems like you're the only one not getting this.

[TerraPrime]

And within that story, 26% of the country believes Obama stole the Election. That is mighty high for an uncontedted result.

Not entirely surprising, as some 40% of Americans believe that we found WMD in Iraq, no?

[Peter Irving]

52% of republicans think ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama. :lmao:

Thats preety scary that that many people believe that bullshit. If that many do believe that it really makes me scared for Americas future.

[TrueMetis]

Not entirely surprising, as some 40% of Americans believe that we found WMD in Iraq, no?

:o

[Lord O' Bones]

How is releasing one of these men, if aquitted, to a nation where they will be immiediately reincarcerated any different from rendition? Further, the clear implication of Holder's statement, if we are unable to find a nation (because we're having such an easy time finding nations that will accept curret Gitmo Detainees) that will accept one of these men, after aquittal, is that they will not be allowed to walk free in the United States.

Like many have said already, if acquited, remand them to INS, deport them to country of origin, done.

They are not legal residents of the United States. They aren't supposed to walk free in the United States.

[Tsavong Lah]

Just to clarify, that poll showing 52% of Republicans believing ACORN stole the election is only of Republicans in Florida. I'm not sure how Republicans of Florida compare to Republicans in other parts of the country, but I believe that number will likely be much higher in Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas and such.

[Andriy Czarchenko]

Just to clarify, that poll showing 52% of Republicans believing ACORN stole the election is only of Republicans in Florida. I'm not sure how Republicans of Florida compare to Republicans in other parts of the country, but I believe that number will likely be much higher in Alabama, Mississippi, Tennessee, Oklahoma, Kansas and such.

Umm no, it´s nationally.

PPP's newest national survey finds that a 52% majority of GOP voters nationally think that ACORN stole the Presidential election for Barack Obama last year, with only 27% granting that he won it legitimately.

[tzanth]

But it is exactly that fair trial that is scary. Evidence was gathered on these suspected terrorists under less than legal in the US standards, no miranda rights were given these people, they were tortured (repeatedly), and even Holder himself yesterday was not saying "suspected" when calling them murderers and terrorists. All of these things are cause for any public defender to have the case against these people thrown out or to have evidence dismissed against them.

If we don't give them a fair trial than we are murderers and terrorists ourselves.

[Annelise]

But the main panicked narrative seems to be that we won't release them at all if aquited. That's not what's been said.

Damnit, I am not keeping up. :cry: I have to get used to waiting until I have a chance to look into stuff myself. Which I still haven't done on this. I did curse at the TV last night when I saw a clip of people begging Holder not to bring terrorists into the country on the news.

Caught that the Senate released their healthcare bill in a NYT article, while sitting in the waiting area while the boy was at speech therapy tho.

[The_BlauerDragon]

Thats preety scary that that many people believe that bullshit. If that many do believe that it really makes me scared for Americas future.

I know what you mean.... 48% is way too high a percentage of extremely naive people for it to be at all healthy for the country. :leaving:

ETA: In all Honesty, I think that voter fraud is rampant to some degree or another in every election (with, or without the knowledge and/or consent of the candidate). That's the problem that we should all be most concerned with. I mean, Yes, ACORN did engage in a lot of voter fraud (I think that we can all agree that the evidence is there). Was it enough to change the outcome of the election? I doubt it. Maybe, but I doubt it. There was a much greater issue in Bush's 2000 election (or was it technically 2001?). As far back as I can remember, there have been stories of this or that being rigged in just about every election of any importance that I can think of. Why aren't we focusing on finding a way to stamp out the opportunities for such abuses and level the playing field for all sides?

[Shryke]

And within that story, 26% of the country believes Obama stole the Election. That is mighty high for an uncontedted result.

Well, your talking about the Right Wing here. They don't believe an election they lose can be legitimate.

Democracy is only functioning if their ideas win.

I mean, Yes, ACORN did engage in a lot of voter fraud (I think that we can all agree that the evidence is there).

Uh ... no, no they didn't.

[Shryke]

Why is that scary Frog Eater? If they have a fair trial, and the case is thrown out due to lack of untainted evidence, so what? The US Authorities have failed, but the Juridical System have won.

If Americans worry about letting "terrorists" go, perhaps next time you'll take more care in how you treat suspected "terrorists".

If one of these guys is aquitted, it's going to be very .... uh, interesting.

We're talking the full on, head-to-head collision of "What the public wants" and "What the laws of a just society say".

[Smashing Young Man]

When ACORN workers are caught registering Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, it's hard not to be skeptical. I don't they screwed with the works enough to make a difference in the election outcome.

[Shryke]

When ACORN workers are caught registering Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, it's hard not to be skeptical. I don't they screwed with the works enough to make a difference in the election outcome.

You do know that they forced, by law, to submit any and all registration forms they are given, regardless of whether or not they are known to be fraudulent right?

Like, you could go right up to one of these guys, fill out the form as "Heywood Jablowme", give it to them and say "This isn't my real name", and they MUST submit it. (This is to prevent voter suppression, which is an ACTUAL problem and not a boogeyman issue like "voter fraud")

And you know that most of the fraudulent forms are found because ACORN themselves find them and say "Hey, this form is fraudulent"? And that most of these employees defrauding the system are caught and fired by ACORN after they figure out what's going on?

[awesome possum]

I mean, Yes, ACORN did engage in a lot of voter fraud (I think that we can all agree that the evidence is there).

Yes. And Al Gore should have been president in 2000. And Diebold handed George W Bush the 2004 election by rigging machines in certain Ohio districts in 2004.

It's all just conjecture and opinionated b.s. unless you actually have evidence. Which neither you nor any of the right wing blowhards who like to claim that ACORN is responsible for a laundry list of crap, actually have.

[awesome possum]

When ACORN workers are caught registering Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse, it's hard not to be skeptical. I don't they screwed with the works enough to make a difference in the election outcome.

When Donald and Mickey actually vote - you know, the part that matters - then you can pull out this tired, stupid talking point again. Until then, stow it away buddy. It just makes you look silly.

[The_BlauerDragon]

If one of these guys is aquitted, it's going to be very .... uh, interesting.

We're talking the full on, head-to-head collision of "What the public wants" and "What the laws of a just society say".

Yes. It would be interesting. As much as I want to see the guilty pay... All I can say is that if one (or all) of them gets acquitted then they had best be set free (quite possibly with apologies and restitution) without any further delays or abuses.

It still angers me that they have been held so long without trials. It angers me more that we, as a Nation, allowed our government to engage in torture.

It infuriates me to no end that we allowed the process to continue long after we found out about it, and that we have no demanded that the Patriot Act be repealed and laws be put in place to prevent any such abuses from ever again finding a loop hole to excuse them.