N.K. Jemisin, The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms

[Volsungr]

I am shocked this book is getting such positive reviews, and disappointed that the hype convinced me to buy this book I would rate it as the second worst Spec Fiction I have purchased, sandwiched between the fifth sorceress below and Terry Goodkind above.

The plot to my mind can be summarized as follows: Homely bi-racial amazon girl/authorial insert has sex with the sexiest baddest bad boy in the history of the universe and becomes a goddess herself.

As a work of art I found it terrible, but I finished it because it was fascinating to me how the heart of the story ended up fitting so neatly in to the most unnuanced idea of female wish fulfillment(getting with a sexy man and gaining prestige and status) while bearing the trappings of the most unthoughtful feminism.

The female warrior society from which Yeine comes is not explored at all and makes no sense even in the context of the character. Yiene is the ruler of these female warriors but in order to conquer a man she has to use sex and treachery; that doesn't do any favors to the logic of this female warrior society nor is it a positive representation of feminism from my perspective.

There are two simple problems facing a society of warrior women. Number one: warrior effectiveness; women are on average smaller and physically weaker than men. There is no evidence that this is different among the Darre. In fact Yeine's case seems to indicate the opposite, I believe she even refers to value of keeping the stronger males to protect the offspring (why not train them as warrior then?). If women are in fact weaker in this society as seems to be the case then they will have problems facing physically superior male warriors of other societies.

Number two: reproduction. First, the time in a woman's life when she would the best warrior is also her peak reproductive period. How do women juggle the demands of child bearing (9 Months) and lactating (2 years in a agricultural society) children and being active warriors. Prior to modern medicine most women needed to spend the majority of their reproductive years either pregnant or lactating just in order to maintain population replacement.

Second, a society's reproductive potential is limited by the number of females where as male numbers have to fall very very low to change total fertility. If the Darre clashed with another civilization as their bloodthirsty history indicates they would have, win or lose their population would decrease in the next generation due to high female casualty rates. Societies with male warriors would not have the same problem, and would then have relatively more warriors compared to the previous generation. These logical problems are not in any way addressed in the book. To me, just randomly designating a society as matriarchal Amazons without exploring the practicalities of such a situation is not a complex and multifaceted look at genders, it's an illogical and shallow fantasy.

"The Sky God's Lover" would be a much more honest title for this book. I was definitely dissapointed it did not live up to the political intrigue the title "The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms" indicated. Of course a book not being what it seems is one thing, but this was the height of absurdity. This is a story about a women who is trying to find her mother's killer, prevent her own death, and the genocide of her people, and yet when she is told there is no one worth her attention besides the half dozen she has already met she accepts it at face value. That seems unlikely that a bureaucracy of world spanning empires has only 6 or 7 power players worth noting.

Finally, the world building was terrible. There are apparently a hundred thousand kingdoms but all we see is Sky, which might as well be the wing of a hospital given how white, sterile, convenient (with elevators), and utterly boring it is.

The potential for an interesting story was here: investigating her mother's death, preventing genocide, fighting for her life with her awesome matriarchal warrior skills. Instead the book is really all about hooking up with the sexy god of night.

I rate it

:stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick: :stillsick:

[Renasko]

Well, shit, dude. I said pretty much all that at the start of the year. If she continues on the same note of her début novel, she'll be fun to make fun of - Goodkind-esque - at the very least. I'm sure a few people on here will find that something to appreciate.

[Volsungr]

Well, shit, dude. I said pretty much all that at the start of the year. If she continues on the same note of her début novel, she'll be fun to make fun of - Goodkind-esque - at the very least. I'm sure a few people on here will find that something to appreciate.

Unhappily I did not happen across your review before picking up that terrible book.

[Gigei]

"The Sky God's Lover" would be a much more honest title for this book.

Agreed. Why be shy about it anyway? There is a market for supernatural/fantasy romance. Embrace the cheesiness and market it appropriately!

Instead the book is really all about hooking up with the sexy god of night.

Lol that's what I said. I'm still amazed none of the reviews mentioned that.

[Little Valkyrie]

I finished this book recently, and I can't think of another case where my personal reaction and the many extremely positive reviews I read were further apart. Thanks to everyone who's already posted in this thread for providing a lot of food for thought as I worked through my own reactions.

I wish this book had been titled The Sky-God's Lover, as the author wished to do. I opened this up expecting it to be about the protagonist picking her way through complex palace politics, always negotiating between the two cultures of her mixed background...and then there was very little politics. More damningly for what I like to read, I found very little moral complexity. The author has discussed on her own blog that she purposefully made Scimina utterly 2-D because:

I needed there to be one absolute, unadulterated ratbastard in the story, and Scimina was it.

And to keep her absolutely evil, I needed to keep her relatively unknown. I don’t know her back story. Why she takes such pleasure in tormenting Naha, why she doesn’t love her twin brother, what’s her thing for leashes and torture — no clue.

The morally ambiguous nature of the gods provides some complexity, but that takes a back seat to the imperative of restoring the godly balance (I'm sure the trilogy will end with all three back in balance), or at least getting some gratifying revenge in so Itempas will learn better and come out improved in the long run. The end result of this is that Yeine is good (with a few issues of oh look at how she killed a man), and the Arameri are corrupt pedophilic sadistic inbred bastards on steroids, with the token also-oppressed T'vril as the one other character we can cheer for. I was hoping for something more along the lines of Acacia or the real moral knots of the excellent Long Price Quartet, which I'm almost done with. Instead, the focus here is entirely internal--I don't even know what technology level this world is at, and the few political conflicts are sketchy at best. (I did notice that when Yeine goes to threaten the other country that wants territory back, it's territory that is now culturally/linguistically well part of Yeine's country, so it's yet another situation where she's in the right.)

Instead of empire, the focus of this book is on Yeine's relationship with Nahadoth, and this is where many reviewers liked it--I remember a tag line for a review, If you've been reading a lot of paranormals with gross power dynamics, then this book wants to mess with your head. I never got drawn into this part of the story, as Nahadoth reminds me of one-too-many a dark-haired--nay, ridiculous-haired--emo bishounen. I've read too much manga to really care about this type. Where I didn't find that much engaging on the racial/cultural front in this novel, there was a lot more with respect to gender, perhaps because it's still uncommon in most epic-style fantasies to write from the POV of an overtly sexual woman.

I will be interested to see what the next book in the series, which is out now, is about, and how the author develops with further novels.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I have to say that I just finished the second one, and while I'll finish the trilogy, I don't like The Broken Kingdoms as much as The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms.

I have a suspicion that my excitement over some of the things present in the first book that are so very rarely dealt with in the "mainstream" fantasy I read -- a biracial main character; non-binary sexual orientation; an only "mostly-happy" ending; a wide variety of races represented, including Yeine's tribe, who are a tribe, but aren't the Noble Savage trope; etc -- gave me a better overall impression for its novelty. Yes, the sex scene was over the top, but I felt that first, it was meant to be, and second, sometimes sex just is over the top, and talking about it can be absurd.

This time... okay, I was still in tears at the end of the main story, before the Epilogue*, but I didn't find the story itself as interesting. There are still things that I was delighted to see (see first spoiler section), but it was still overwhelmed by my feeling that I knew pretty much what'd happen by the end.

Things I liked:

- A blind protagonist...

- ... who stays blind

- ... and who has had previous relationships

- ... and who has remained *friends* with at least one ex

- ... and who doesn't end up finding True Love with the now-mortal Itempas

- ... who, by the way, is still an asshole, because ten years or so is no big deal after millenia

- ... thus he doesn't end up regaining his godhood just to give him a complete arc ending in this book.

- Nahadoth is also still dealing with his own capitivity and release.

- There are at least some attempts to deal with the effects of the first book on more than just the individuals we meet.

- Oree has to make real sacrifices before the end of the book. I.e., she chooses things that will hurt herself and others, because she thinks it will be best, and has to live with that.

Things I didn't like:

- There's still an incredibly stark contrast between the good guys and the bad guys, for the most part.

- Some of the moments of survival and escapes seemed far too convenient to be believable.

- Inconsistencies -- mortal blood is apparently not harmful to gods, but the blood of someone who has both mortal and immortal ancestors is? No matter how diluted, since the possibility of mortal-god children had been forgotten by humanity centuries before?

- Following on from that, did female gods die if ever impregnated by mortal men? Or did that ever happen at all?

- The epilogue. Or at least the person being addressed. I feel that that situation reduces the impact of any choice Itempas and Oree (but particularly Itempas) might make in the future. Then again, maybe it'll be turned on its head, and I'll be pleasantly surprised.

I am willing to buy the third, when it's published, but I'm really mostly looking forward to the perspective character.

* I think the book would have been stronger without the Epilogue entirely, but it may be necessary to set something up for the third book.

[Gigei]

So is the second book also (heavily) romance fantasy? Tentacle sex+chapter-long sex scenes?

[Returned]

I wished I had checked out this thread AGAIN after it came out before buying that book. The common god aspect you see n some fantasy is getting recycled so much, and everytime it's worse. We've had Edward the glittering vampire and now we have Nahadoth the glittering God.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Gigei, romance, yes, in the sense that it focuses very heavily on the protagonist and her relationships, some of which are/were sexual. No unnamed appendage sex, though, that I recall. Maybe I've just blanked that part out of my memory. :/

[Little Valkyrie]

So, it seems that the denizens of this board got noticed, if you scroll down in the comments:

http://nkjemisin.com/2011/02/feminization-in-epic-fantasy/

I see some of her points, but I think she's shortchanged the discussion that was had here about the book. I'm sure that she'll trackback and read this, being as authors use Google Alerts and all of that.

So Jemisin lays out what she was trying to do with the three plots of the book:

A plot: Yeine finds out about her past and untangles her mother's death

B plot: The heirs contest

C plot: The Nadadoth 'romance'

In her view of what she wrote, A is the main plot, B is the subplot, and C is almost tenuously connected to the others.

As a fan of epic fantasy, I think it's easy to explain why so many people focused in on the C plot, sometimes to their own dismay. Readers of epic fantasy enjoy it for various reasons, but one big one is the ongoing guessing game that the books provoke: where is the plot going to go, what twists will happen to characters, etc. Figuring things out in advance and then being gratified (being right), disappointed (things don't do something interesting) or surprised (being wrong but in an interesting way) is totally what this genre is about.

So if you're an epic reader, as soon as you find out about the gods and their enslavement, you say "Well, there's the big plot of the series, I'm pretty sure'" and you focus in on everything pointing that way. If, like me, you found the B plot of the series totally ungratifying (Scimina is 1-D and viciously stupid, etc.) and the A plot not as interesting as it might otherwise be, you pick up on the C plot as where the main interest of the book might lie. I have to say that the C plot did feel like a paranormal romance to me, too: the element of danger with the lust object being threatening, the heroine ultimately changing cultures into the magical world, and if not quite a Happily Ever After, it's hard to call anything where the protagonist becomes a goddess a real downer.

I'll have to actually dig at book 2 to see if it makes book 1 feel more like an epic fantasy in retrospect, as first books are often smaller-feel as they introduce events.

[polishgenius]

I think she's mistaken (or her informant is anyway) when she thinks that people don't think Morgan's sex scenes are silly. I don't think I know anyone who thinks they improve the books. Or Hamilton's, or the like.

I think the difference between those and this though is that there was a clear separate plot thread involving the romance, whereas in the other books the sex scenes are either almost asides and the relationship involved is wound into the main plot, or is actually quite a small part of a humongous book (Hamilton) so that it doesn't much impact the main plot.

And yeah, I think she did fail a bit at describing the weirdness of god-sex. I mean it was weird, but it also felt silly. But writing a sex-scene to not be silly is always difficult, let alone one as bizarre as those, so...

I mean I didn't think it ruined this book the way a lot of people did but I don't think the difference is down, that much, to the 'male perspective' thing.

I've read the first chapter of the second book in the shop and it did look intriguing, it does seem to build the epic feel a bit more. I'll probably get it at some point, probably in the next couple of months.

[ambyr]

I'll have to actually dig at book 2 to see if it makes book 1 feel more like an epic fantasy in retrospect, as first books are often smaller-feel as they introduce events.

While I liked book 2, I think I'd say if that's what you're looking for, don't bother--book 2 is much smaller feeling than book 1.

[Grack21]

I'm just waiting for someone over in that thread to mention Bakker. Then things are going to explode.

or is actually quite a small part of a humongous book (Hamilton)

Er, I don't think you've read enough Hamilton then, her later books are nothing BUT sex.

[williamjm]

Er, I don't think you've read enough Hamilton then, her later books are nothing BUT sex.

I'm guessing he meant Peter F. Hamilton, not Laurel K. Hamilton. PFH's books do have plenty of sex scenes in them, I'd agree with polishgenius that they tend not to add anything to the book.

[Grack21]

I'm guessing he meant Peter F. Hamilton, not Laurel K. Hamilton. PFH's books do have plenty of sex scenes in them, I'd agree with polishgenius that they tend not to add anything to the book.

Haha OK, That makes MUCH more sense.

[Renasko]

Eh, she's right in that she mishandled the sex scenes in her book - something I am in no way opposed to (quite the opposite). I'm unsure how we're supposed to find the book so feminist whenever the main character finds herself in a compromising situation, like a sexual occurence, she transfers the power to the male figure in the story. From her first time to her last.

Whatevs. The book would've been lacing whether the sex scenes were handled well or not, so it's not really worth debating. It failed in terms of world building, which is key when it comes to epic fantasy. And the characters were one dimensional.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

Never answer to bad reviews. It only makes you look bad. She really should follow this advice.

[Gigei]

Whoa, she specifically mentions GRMM fans. She read this thread!

Hahaha well I have repeated said that I did in fact like the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms so Jemisin doesn't have to feel hurt but in case she truly doesn't understand why her readers are saying that her novel is a romance/paranormal romance then let me give some more details.

When is sex pervasive yet not romantic?

I have read almost all of the other writers she mentioned in her blog post. Carey, for example, is heavily into sex in her Kushiel books but they are super dense and not romantic. Even during the sex scenes her main characters are more concerned about political intrigues and survival. For example, when a client goes too far and actually

burns her with a piece of hot metal

Phedre is not thinking about her vagina, she is thinking about what the guy revealed about his patron. 80% of the books are political intrigues, religion, culture and magic.

The Hundred Thousand Kingsdoms and romance novel tropes

On the other hand, if Jemisin wants to be taken seriously as a fantasy writer then she needs to take it easy with the cheesey romance lines such as

“I have waited so long for you,” the god breathed. Then he kissed me.

When they first meet. I mean, how the heck can you recover from such a cliche romance novel encounter? Love at first punch! Seriously.

Other cheesey romance novel quotes:

And then I heard a voice, except it wasn’t a voice, and he asked, “Do you love me?”

So there was love, once.

More than love. And now there is more than hate. Mortals have no words for what we gods feel. Gods have no words for such things.

But love like that doesn’t just disappear, does it? No matter how powerful the hate, there is always a little love left, underneath.

Yes. Horrible, isn’t it?

He stopped walking, his eyes soft and mournful. “If you were her,” he said, “you would love me.”

There was no doubt as to what he meant—not with his eyes stripping my clothing as I stood there.

I barely saw all this. Nahadoth and I were still staring at each other.

Had I thought him merely beautiful before?

Jemisin responds to criticisms about her book being romance and not fantasy

So Jemisin in her blog writes:

This is what kills me about the people who try and label it as romance fiction, because it really proves that those people don’t know anything about romance. Romance is about specific tropes, not just relationships. Yeine/Nahadoth are barely Happily Ever After enough to satisfy a romance audience. Just. If you squint.

Wow, well here are just a few of the romance tropes present in the first book:

HEA - happily ever after

Love at first punch (lol, the meeting, first kiss with a slap slap kiss kiss)

alpha male (guess who)

destined lovers (or reincarnated lovers)

spunky romance heroine with unusual coloring *cough*

But how exactly is this "barely" HEA?

Nahadoth touched my face then, very gently, and I was awed and humbled by the tenderness in his gaze. Had I earned such warmth from him? I hadn’t —b ut I would. I vowed this to myself, and lifted my face for his kiss.

“You have much to learn,” he murmured against my lips when we parted. “I have so many wonders to show you.”

I could not help grinning like a human girl. “Take me away, then,” I said. “Let's get started.”

So we passed beyond the universe, and now there is nothing more to tell.

Why, if it is not romantic at all was the original title "Sky Gods Lover"? Okay, according to the author this was meant to be ironic or something, but if you use romance book language - guess what, your readers will be comparing your fantasy book to romance books.

He kissed me silent. There was longing in that kiss, tangy and bittersweet. Was that my own longing, or his? Then I understood, finally: it didn’t matter.

But oh gods, oh goddess, it was so good. He tasted like cool dew.

Paranormal romance does not always equal true love - its often destined love or magical love

Oh and fyi to Ms. Jemisin, paranormal romance is a type of romance where HEA and true love is not traditional. Destined lovers/ fated mates/ reincarnated partners are common and true love in the regular sense of the word is hardly an issue.

To illustrate, in a traditional romance novel its boy meets girl, its lust at first sight, problems or misunderstandings keep them apart, they get to know and love each other, then climax (pun intended) and lastly, resolution with HEA ending.

Paranormal romance, on the other hand, will typically have attraction or love as a result of supernatural or magical means.

Like in Twilight, Edward "loves" Bella because of her delicious blood scent and his inability to read her mind. Or in Feehan's vampire romance books, the guy will simply know his life mate because he will start to see in color (normally the vampire's vision is black and white).

Or in Katie MacAlister's humorous vampire romance books, the vampire will know that a human is his destined mate/savior because he will be able to exchange thoughts (the opposite of Twilight). Or in Kresley Cole's IAD series, werewolves just know due to their animal instinct that a female is their mate.

In other words, Jemisin protesting that her novel is not romance because the love part is dubious just means she doesn't know much about paranormal romance.

Love is destined, magical and unusual in the paranormal romance genre. Many times, it is not even real love by conventional definition at all.

Jemisin's characters being magically incomplete and then riding off into th sunset together after being magically made whole is pretty much a paranormal romance novel trope, IMO.

[Mjolnir]

Right, so I've started rereading the first Inheritance novel, The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms. My reasons are several: First, I've had and observed various discussions on the intertubes since my first very enthusiastic response to the novel that have brought potential problems with large parts of it more to my attention, and I want to see how I react a second time with some of these in mind. [The ones I've not forgotten, anyway.] Second and in a similar vein, some elements of book 2 harshed my groove and I'm interested in seeing how book 1 rereads in light of these. Third, it just got nominated for a Hugo, and whether or not you give a fuck about the Hugos I think that nomination -- of a very relationship heavy novel that wears its fantasy heart on its sleeve and doesn't give a shit about what you think of that -- for such an award says something interesting. And I think the various responses from various different bits of fandom to that nomination also say interesting things about both fandom and the book. I've seen everything from "I am going to get a supporting membership to WorldCon at nontrivial expense for the express purpose of voting for this" to extreme bile directed at the book's relationship-heavy plot and cheeseball sex scenes and supposed author-insertion elements and general rubbishness.

So I am, community tolerating, going to write about my reread here. I will do this until I get bored, which means I may well never finish. But I'm a few chapters in and I'm already noticing one or two interesting things, and I've nothing else pressing to do just now. So: onwards! Onwards to the lands of the wronged and the enslaved, where enigmatic statements are ten a penny, reeling around confused is an extreme sport for young heroines, and yes, the god-penises are beyond compare! Bring it the fuck on.

[Liadin]

Huh, Gigei, I don't see anything wrong with the quotes you posted. If you start insisting that something is cheesy and terrible as soon as two characters kiss, or one professes to love/be attracted to the other, maybe the problem is with you, not the book? Those sorts of things do happen in most real-life relationships, y'know. And saying any book with quotes like

“I have waited so long for you,” the god breathed. Then he kissed me.

is a romance novel would make everything but the most testosterone-heavy of bad SFF (y'know, of the sort where there's one female character and she's a prostitute) a romance novel.

I mean, really, I roll my eyes as much as anyone else when characters start professing their love in long speeches heavy with figurative language, especially when such speeches are delivered to third parties (!), but this sounds pretty unobjectionable.