The Judging Eye VII

[Curethan]

Makes me wonder whether the Dunyain trained the young Anasurimbor bastard in their techniques or just used him as a breeder.

Not important, really.

The stranger brought him to the others, and together they celebrated their strange fortune... Here was evident a great correspondence of cause. Here awareness most holy could be tended. In Ishual, they had found shelter against the ending of the world.

Coming hot on the heels of the repudiation of "So long as men live, there are crimes!" that sounds like it's foreshadowing something important ;)

[Happy Ent]

random thought that occured to me. How did the womb plague of the nonman women work?

Here’s my answer:

The Inchoroi stopped the nonman Circle of Souls (viz. the mechanism of Eärwan metaphysics by which souls are transported from the “Inside” to the Outside when they die, and back when they are born.)

This made the existing Nonmen immortal. It also meant that Nonmen fetuses were unsouled, just lumps of animated flesh. For boring (medical, mechanical) reasons carrying such a child to term kills the Nonwoman.

Why would the Inchoroi want to do this? According to me, the Circle of Souls is their enemy because it affects morality. (The soul “updates” the Outside with its own morality, affecting such things as damnation.)

Why didn’t it solve the Inchi problem? Because of Man. A much stronger (quicker-updated) Circle of Souls.

[aimlessgun]

What exactly is damnation anyways? Does that ever get described? Or it is just some vague fear of everlasting torment?

[Spring Bass]

Hellfire, torment, agony, and so forth. If the Topos in Judging Eye is any indication, it's pretty horrifying.

[Happy Ent]

What exactly is damnation anyways? Does that ever get described? Or it is just some vague fear of everlasting torment?

It’s the same as “ours” (medieval Christian). We used to believe in that stuff ourselves—Bakker’s conceit is that this belief makes it true because belief begets reality.

For images, I like Hieronymus Bosch’s view of hell.

[aimlessgun]

It’s the same as “ours” (medieval Christian). We used to believe in that stuff ourselves—Bakker’s conceit is that this belief makes it true because belief begets reality.

For images, I like Hieronymus Bosch’s view of hell.

Ah makes sense. So the Inchoroi could escape damnation by turning everyone into secular athiests? I guess that doesn't really fit their unique style.

And yes, the Bosch painting is amazing.

[Shryke]

Ah makes sense. So the Inchoroi could escape damnation by turning everyone into secular athiests? I guess that doesn't really fit their unique style.

And yes, the Bosch painting is amazing.

That's a theory. It's not confirmed by the text at all.

The reality of damnation is though. But not the idea that belief begets reality.

[Shryke]

Thinking back to the aforementioned prologue I have a question that I'm not sure is spelled out in the text...

When the boy kills the bard and is the only one left at Ishual the Dunyain arrive. They are already Dunyain at this time, at least nominally. We are told that one of them says something like "We are Dunyain child. What reason should you have to fear us?" Then the child has his response about "crimes" which the Dunyain leader is amazed at and then responds about "only so long as men are deceived."

What I'm wondering is to what extent the Dunyain at this time were already like the Dunyain in the time of Kellhus. My guess is that they had the inklings of their philosophy, but that they underwent a more radical transformation once the apocalypse happened and they fled to isolation and refuge in Ishual. But I don't know that we know that for sure. Perhaps the Dunyain of the prologue were nothing like they are in the time of Kellhus and perhaps they were very much like them, but I don't know. My guess is that they were moving in that direction philosophically and that events and circumstance just compounded things once they found Ishual. Thoughts?

I think it's interesting that this conversation is essentially a reflection of the Dunyain vs Inchoroi views.

The boy says "So long as men live, there are crimes". Morality is defined by people and absent them, it ceases to exist. This is, essentially, the Inchoroi's goal. Eliminate people and their crimes are no longer crimes.

The Dunyain replies "No child. Only so long as men are deceived.". Morality is an illusion. A deception perpetuated by man on himself. There are no crimes at all.

[aimlessgun]

That's a theory. It's not confirmed by the text at all.

The reality of damnation is though. But not the idea that belief begets reality.

Is the reality of damnation explicitly supported though? Have people been to hell and seen the tortured souls of the damned, being stuck with hot pokers or ceaselessly pushing stones up hills? Or are we taking Mimara's interpretation of the her Judging Eye at face value?

[Curethan]

Is the reality of damnation explicitly supported though?

Out of text, yes. Stated by the author.

[Kalbear]

Also, the circle of souls theory doesn't explain why the women died. There was no mention of fetuses or anything. Only that all the women died. Doesn't fit at all.

[Old Nan]

There's also the conversation between Iyokus and the demon he raises:

He threw aside the brilliant carpets and painted the circles across the tiles with deft, practiced strokes. Light spilled from his colourless lips as he muttered the Daimotic Cants. And, as the tempest approached, he at last completed his interminable song. He dared speak the Ciphrang’s name.

“Ankaryotis! Heed me!”

From the safety of his circle of symbols, Iyokus gazed in wonder at the sheeted lights of the Outside. He looked upon a writhing abomination—scales like knives, limbs like iron pillars . . .

“Does it hurt?” he asked against the thunder of its wail.

“What hast thou done, mortal?”

Ankaryotis, a fury of the deep, a Ciphrang summoned from the Abyss.

“I have bound you!”

Thou art damned! Dost thou not recognize he who shall keepeth thee for Eternity?

A demon . . .

“Either way,” Iyokus cried, “such is my fate!”

[Amun]

I imagine the womb plague as similar to what is depicted in Frank Herbert's "The White Plague." The Inchoroi engineered an extremely virulent pathogen that kills women and can be carried by men. Could explain why the men were made immortal. If they are permanently infected (don't ask me how) then any Non-woman who has taken refuge still has a high likelihood of being infected at a later date if she comes into contact with a Non-man.

Then why not create a virus or something that kills the Non-men as well? I don't know, maybe the Inchoroi were just pricks. They seem to get off on this kind of thing.

[Ereinion]

I imagine the womb plague as similar to what is depicted in Frank Herbert's "The White Plague." The Inchoroi engineered an extremely virulent pathogen that kills women and can be carried by men. Could explain why the men were made immortal. If they are permanently infected (don't ask me how) then any Non-woman who has taken refuge still has a high likelihood of being infected at a later date if she comes into contact with a Non-man.

Then why not create a virus or something that kills the Non-men as well? I don't know, maybe the Inchoroi were just pricks. They seem to get off on this kind of thing.

I doubt they deliberately let the Nonmen men live, afterall the Nonmen virtually wiped out the Inchoroi after they discovered the womb plague. Their mistake was probably due to their limited knowledge of the Tekne.

[Madness]

That's a good call. As any writer, sometimes it's hard to separate artist and influence. If any of you are bored one day, just search old Bakker interviews. Always awesome. I actually read The White Plague on his recommendation. Really showcased Herbert's different capabilities as a writer. Same thing with Destination: Void and The Jesus Incident followup.

I would say though that Amenhotep is probably closest to the interpretation of the Womb Plague. I've always sided with the argument that the Tekne is pretty much any version of scientific materialism. Thus, Bakker, being the anachronistic link between our world and his own fiction, can include things like the genetically specific pandemic, the White Plague (Womb Plague).

Personally, I think it's probably impossible to separate oneself from ones influence in trying to write anything. I always think of Bakker's scene in TWP; there's a whole paragraph dedicated to Achamian's musings on the idea of a "book" and allowing one's self to be written by the movements of another soul, or the thoughts of another mind. It's like a tip of a hat to what came before, and what came before Bakker was just damn good fiction and explorations of the human experience. I think Bakker, for all the weight of his philosophy once people start listening, has already contributed two concretized ideas to writing fiction in general.

First, The distinct blend of Science Fiction & Fantasy, pitting future and past versions of ourselves against each other, highlighting the war of ideas manifest in our history, cultures, and, of course, society today, in one mosaic of fiction.

Second, the idea of Layers of Revelation, in trying to show us we humans, individually and collectively, aren't what we think, every book so far has upped the ante of metaphysical stakes in Earwa - though I would say my specifics may be up to debate, while I think the concept is pretty evident:

TDTCB: The Consult exists, the skin-spies, and the Tekne.

TWP: Kellhus' Prophet status, despite it's controversy.

TTT: The Thousandfold Thought itself, the ideas of social manifestation (Memetics) cumulating from individual interacting minds to emerge as something irreducible to human souls & TTT's process of rewriting social existence of the world, and debatably the next emergent manifestation of the God.

TJE: The Gods existing in actuality but, specifically, the Judging Eye and it's revision of our ideas of Earwa's metaphysics.

Man, I can't wait to find some time to keep writing my Bakker speculation and post it up here. In the mean time, you guys should check out Thorsten's posts on the Three-Seas forums, if anyone is desperate for new ideas about PON. I wish that poster was still kicking around.

Peace.

[Kalbear]

On the womb plague, I actually think that the Inchoroi weren't trying to be clever but fucked up. I think that's way less interesting.

I think it's a problem of translation. Namely, they could provide a virus that would make the nonmen immortal, but their idea of immortality would be irrevocably destroyed if more and more souls could be produced. Thus the simple solution is to make the men immortal but kill all the women. It's an engineer's solution more than an actual solution.

Or, the inchies are just kinda stupid.

[aimlessgun]

First, The distinct blend of Science Fiction & Fantasy, pitting future and past versions of ourselves against each other, highlighting the war of ideas manifest in our history, cultures, and, of course, society today, in one mosaic of fiction.

Who are the future versions of ourselves?

[Kalbear]

I'm fairly certain both Aurax and Aurang can use sorcery; if nothing else, their elongated lifespan is a part of that.

Beyond that it's pretty unclear. We have instances of skin-spies having souls and thus can be part of the Few(which is apparently rare but does happen). Actually, that's an interesting point; the only skin-spy that can cast sorcery is both souled (which is rare) AND is somehow also a Few.

Which makes me wonder whether or not the Few part has very little to do with being, well, "few". And it's not a binary issue, but a spectrum one, and that everyone to some degree has the ability to use sorcery provided that they have a connection with the Outside.

Which is clear that Aurax and Aurang do, as they both fear damnation; if they didn't have souls they wouldn't care.

So what would the Few mean? I would bet that it allows you to more easily cast sorcery because of nothing else other than being able to visually interact with it. Think of it as people who are predominantly color blind vs those with full vision. Both have the ability to paint in red and green, but only the full-visioned folks could create something interesting with it - at least to other full-visioned folks. But it's not necessary to be a Few to do so. It just helps, a lot. And in this theory, that means that you could potentially teach anyone to touch the Outside and harness that ability. It would be hard...but you could do it.

One potential side effect of this kind of rule would be that all Dunyain would almost certainly be able to cast spells even if they didn't perceive the Mark.

[lokisnow]

Who are the future versions of ourselves?

tangentially, I'm curious what Nerdanel will select from the latest "time-themed" blog post on Bakker's blog to support his time travel theory.

also, because I need to post what bakker says about pet theories, since I posted my womb plague theory:

A pet theory is a lot like a pet cat, except that it never dies, always purrs, and craps all over your imagination instead of in the conceptual litter box.

I think I'm going to sig that.

[Nerdanel]

I hope you aren't mistaking me with some one else. Namely, my time travel theory is that there is no time travel going on.

My theory is as follows:

The Dûnyain are right about cause and effect and future cannot change the past. Prophecies are merely the equivalent of public relations announcements from the gods where they tell about something they are going to make happen or warn about what some other power is planning. Such things need to be taken seriously since any god worthy of the name is going to be good at manipulating events. But since mortals are noisy communication channels, prophecies tend to be somewhat unclear. Also, it is to the benefit of the god to have plausible deniability if things don't go as planned. The best prophecies are designed to be self-fulfilling by their originator.

The Seswatha dreams are sent from the present to the Mandate by the spirit of Seswatha using a spell much like what normal sorcerers use to communicate with dreams. Seswatha chooses events from his memory that he thinks impart the lessons most needed at a given moment. Sometimes he tweaks the dreams if he has more to say to a particular sorcerer, such as showing Achamian his own face in the mirror early. I think the dream about the king parroting the No-God's lines was a warning about Kellhus being a servant of the No-God who would lead his people to destruction.

I think the variant Seswatha dreams were sent to Achamian alone by Mekeritrig/Cleric as a part of a nefarious plan the full extent of which is yet to be revealed. The purpose of those dreams is to lure Achamian exactly where Mekeritrig wants him to be at exactly the right time. The variant dreams are fabricated by Mekeritrig using his own memories for the local flavor. It is likely that Mekeritrig was the one to have an affair with the Queen. The mention of Mimara in a dream does not violate causality. Mekeritrig is simply curious about what Mimara's role is and was trying to get Achamian open up in the context of a fake Seswatha dream.

I'm not sure how relevant Bakker's article is to all that, but at least it seems to presuppose a normal view of time that progresses in one direction only and does not form loops-