The Judging Eye VII

[Madness]

@aimless, I would say that almost every science fiction by definition deals with some exaggerated future version of humankind. Add to that, that every conception of alien or creature is still innately a human conception, and I would wager that the Inchoroi represent something of our basest future, while the Nonmen belong to realms of higher mind conception.

As for the Inchoroi sorcery, the Nonmen practitioners of the Aporos and the Mangaecca taught Aurang and Aurax sorcery. It was not something natural from their world, though obviously, they are adept in understand the fundaments of reality.

[Kalbear]

Who taught them isn't the issue, Madness. The question is why are Aurax and Aurang of the Few?

What does it mean to be of the Few if you're an alien species? Were they always this way? Did they have some contact with the Outside before they ever came to Earwa? Is it something innate in anyone? Were they souled before they came to Earwa? Did they have the concept of damnation where they came from, and if so were they going to go there anyway?

[lokisnow]

sorry Nerdanel, I mixed up my pet theories and their practicioners. I was definitely referring to the time travel theory that AK is in fact the No God from the first apocalypse and that he travels back in time to become the No God. :-p I'm especially fond of that pet theory, because it reminds me of the pet theory I heard (surprisingly often) that Dumbledore was either Harry or Ron of the future and had used time travel to assume the Dumbledore persona. :-p

[jurble]

Who taught them isn't the issue, Madness. The question is why are Aurax and Aurang of the Few?

What does it mean to be of the Few if you're an alien species? Were they always this way? Did they have some contact with the Outside before they ever came to Earwa? Is it something innate in anyone? Were they souled before they came to Earwa? Did they have the concept of damnation where they came from, and if so were they going to go there anyway?

Maybe in Bakkerverse soul is simply a function of consciousness. A skin-spy isn't actually conscious, it's a very fancy biological machine that would ultimately fail a Turing test, or something. And maybe they genetically engineered themselves into one of the Few?

[sologdin]

A skin-spy isn't actually conscious

i know fuckall about this stuff, but wasn't there a sorcerer skinspy?

[aimlessgun]

@aimless, I would say that almost every science fiction by definition deals with some exaggerated future version of humankind. Add to that, that every conception of alien or creature is still innately a human conception, and I would wager that the Inchoroi represent something of our basest future, while the Nonmen belong to realms of higher mind conception.

But if they aren't readily apparent for what you're theorizing them to be, or rather if one has to try this hard to get them into that box, it doesn't feel like they can be used to support a theme such as you're saying (past v future in war of ideas/ideals).

Plus, the non-men don't seem to be all that representative of a good fork of far future humanity: I know we don't get a whole lot from before they became immortal and crazy, but from what I've heard it doesn't really scream "realms of higher mind conception".

The Inchoroi, on the other hand...well I guess I have a hard time imagining far future humans genteching themselves into rape monsters. There's exaggerated future versions...and then there's rape monsters.

I think the variant Seswatha dreams were sent to Achamian alone by Mekeritrig/Cleric as a part of a nefarious plan the full extent of which is yet to be revealed. The purpose of those dreams is to lure Achamian exactly where Mekeritrig wants him to be at exactly the right time. The variant dreams are fabricated by Mekeritrig using his own memories for the local flavor. It is likely that Mekeritrig was the one to have an affair with the Queen. The mention of Mimara in a dream does not violate causality. Mekeritrig is simply curious about what Mimara's role is and was trying to get Achamian open up in the context of a fake Seswatha dream.

I think it got buried a couple pages back, any thoughts on the chin wound Kellhus dealt Mekeritrig maybe scarring, and Cleric having an unblemished face?

Also, you think Cleric is faking his behavior? (with regards to being completely insane and not remembering great sections of the past)

I'd guess being one of the Few is just something you can luck out on if you have a soul? But it is a little odd that so many major characters have this 'luck', so there's probably something going on.

[Madness]

That was me with the time travel theory, lockesnow. I hadn't thought about applying Bakker's newest blog to it. His words usually just blow my mind with implications to our reality alone. Maybe I will.

Sorry, Razor, I definitely misread your post. I grabbed my TDTCB and TTT to check some shit out, and I could find and think of only a couple instances when Aurang uses sorcery. In TDTCB, in his interaction with Inrau, Aurang seems to use sorcery through the synthese and claims to be able to work the Gnostic Agonies in Inchoroi form. However, Kellhus seems to have an interesting thought in his interaction with Aurang in TTT:

"Across the world in Golgotterath," Kellhus gasped, still stamping out the coals of his manic lust, "the Mengaecca squat about your true flesh, rocking to the mutter of endless Cants.

Insinuating that perhaps the Mengaecca are involved in Aurang's ability to work sorcery, though, I think the brothers Inchoroi are probably able to solo.

I tried to articulate in my last post that I was thinking along the lines of the Inchoroi having a better understanding of the fundaments of any reality, suggesting that they just might have an easier time of understanding and utilizing them. The only requirement seems to be a soul, which Bakker has said might simply be mind. He's an ambiguous guy. Belief seems be the chief metaphysic in Bakker's reality. Maybe thats based on gravity or something. Perhaps, the Inchoroi didn't have concepts for damnation on their planet. We probably don't even have enough information to suggest why the Inchoroi can use sorcery.

But if they aren't readily apparent for what you're theorizing them to be, or rather if one has to try this hard to get them into that box, it doesn't feel like they can be used to support a theme such as you're saying (past v future in war of ideas/ideals).

Plus, the non-men don't seem to be all that representative of a good fork of far future humanity: I know we don't get a whole lot from before they became immortal and crazy, but from what I've heard it doesn't really scream "realms of higher mind conception".

The Inchoroi, on the other hand...well I guess I have a hard time imagining far future humans genteching themselves into rape monsters. There's exaggerated future versions...and then there's rape monsters.

Simple philosophical experiment: think of something which is not a human concept. You can't, unless of course you are not human. This connects to the idea that Bakker's world is simply his psychology writ in fictive stone. You can't separate a fiction from its author. Likewise, everything I write here suggests far more about my worldview than it possibly could about Bakker's fiction.

That in mind, I can pretty easily twist the Inchoroi into representing our materialistic world and the idea of desire; we pretty much just live to satisfy our innane desires now, a lot of them as base and derivative as the Inchoroi's. The fact that some people are actively turned on or engaged by the idea of rape monsters; some aspect of humankind secretly craves these things.

The Nonmen, on the other hand, seem to me as an extremity of philosophical discourse, their entire worldview steeped in higher conceptual function.

Always just thoughts. I apologize as well, as I'm basically incapable of viewing and discussing Bakker's work as strict fiction. It has too many philosophical ideas prevalent in our own society for me to ignore.

[aimlessgun]

Simple philosophical experiment: think of something which is not a human concept. You can't, unless of course you are not human. This connects to the idea that Bakker's world is simply his psychology writ in fictive stone. You can't separate a fiction from its author. Likewise, everything I write here suggests far more about my worldview than it possibly could about Bakker's fiction.

That in mind, I can pretty easily twist the Inchoroi into representing our materialistic world and the idea of desire; we pretty much just live to satisfy our innane desires now, a lot of them as base and derivative as the Inchoroi's. The fact that some people are actively turned on or engaged by the idea of rape monsters; some aspect of humankind secretly craves these things.

The Nonmen, on the other hand, seem to me as an extremity of philosophical discourse, their entire worldview steeped in higher conceptual function.

Always just thoughts. I apologize as well, as I'm basically incapable of viewing and discussing Bakker's work as strict fiction. It has too many philosophical ideas prevalent in our own society for me to ignore.

Ah, so from your perspective, since humans cannot imagine aliens, and the writer is a human, the Ichoroi cannot be aliens.

I can see some of the parallels with the Inchoroi and materialism. Materialists in our world might try to stamp out the meme of religion and erase the concept of damnation, while the Inchoroi decided on the shortcut of stamping out the meme carriers (I suppose when damnation is reality, one must be a little more literal in methodology). Then again that comparison fails insofar as a modern materialist wouldn't be trying to save their soul, they'd be trying to better the one life they have, while the Inchoroi are quite invested in the idea of bettering their existence beyond death.

This forward-thinking worry about life after death exhibited by the Inchoroi, or at least the Inchoroi planners, is what keeps me from seeing them as materialists.

As for the nonmen, what do you mean by 'higher' conceptual function? Especially since their immortality and resulting insanity is generally portrayed as a degraded state of being.

[Curethan]

Insinuating that perhaps the Mengaecca are involved in Aurang's ability to work sorcery.

Was gunna mention this, that quote about the Mangeccea made me think that Aurang had to do some preperation before magic use. The only time we saw Aurax he was rocking it up in a battle/rape demon form and didn't seem inclined to use the cants of compulsion to get information from his captives. I'm pretty sure they can plug their conciousness into any old thing (Esme), with synthese being prefered. If there is a biological component to being one of the Few, I'm sure they could cobble together something to enable sorcery or just possess the body of a sorcerer for the duration.

[Madness]

Ah, so from your perspective, since humans cannot imagine aliens, and the writer is a human, the Ichoroi cannot be aliens.

A bit crude but seems to have my perspective in there. Since you have a general understanding of memetics then consider that the Inchoroi are absolutely aliens, insofar as we've collectively imagined aliens in human minds. I'm simply saying that whatever function they serve in Bakker's fiction, it will likely be a commentary on something human.

I can see some of the parallels with the Inchoroi and materialism. Materialists in our world might try to stamp out the meme of religion and erase the concept of damnation, while the Inchoroi decided on the shortcut of stamping out the meme carriers (I suppose when damnation is reality, one must be a little more literal in methodology). Then again that comparison fails insofar as a modern materialist wouldn't be trying to save their soul, they'd be trying to better the one life they have, while the Inchoroi are quite invested in the idea of bettering their existence beyond death.

The first half of that paragraph is gold. The Inchoroi are absolutely trying to better the one life they have, as would materialists today. Consider that an atheist would support removing the religion meme from human conception because they would probably think it would solve some problems. The Inchoroi, in a world where belief affects both physical and metaphysical reality, choose eliminating the offending souls as reasonable, especially when they've basically perfected some version of immortality. That really should strike you as weird, the fact that the Consult continues their genocidal quest but yet are all effectively immortal. Obviously, their investment goes beyond the fear of damnation.

As for the Nonmen:

Basically, they exist in a philosophic perspective that we might eventually inhabit. When and if science proves that morality is a sham, I will still vigilantly sit here and declare that though it is simply an abstract concept, it gives our species an advantage to embody it. Even though it may be an "illusion." When all is reduced to neural configurations, I will still say that our imagined philosophic ideals are better than the completely fucked up alternatives.

The Nonmen, to me, exist in this conceptual circumstance. Everything about the Nonmen is a completely elaborate, explored, and thought-out conception. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen had some philosophic treatise on shitting.

[aimlessgun]

That really should strike you as weird, the fact that the Consult continues their genocidal quest but yet are all effectively immortal. Obviously, their investment goes beyond the fear of damnation.

It is very strange, actually. I suppose bringing on an Apocalype betters their current life because they really get off on that sort of thing, though if you were immortal you'd maybe keep some humans around, allow them to repopulate so you could kill/rape them again. Or maybe, despite being immortal, they want to wipe out humans because humanity could dream up some gods that could conceivably come in and kill the Inchoroi?

As for the Nonmen:

Basically, they exist in a philosophic perspective that we might eventually inhabit. When and if science proves that morality is a sham, I will still vigilantly sit here and declare that though it is simply an abstract concept, it gives our species an advantage to embody it. Even though it may be an "illusion." When all is reduced to neural configurations, I will still say that our imagined philosophic ideals are better than the completely fucked up alternatives.

The Nonmen, to me, exist in this conceptual circumstance. Everything about the Nonmen is a completely elaborate, explored, and thought-out conception. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nonmen had some philosophic treatise on shitting.

Hmm. I guess I just never got the impression that the nonmen way of thinking was characterized by elaborate thought-out conception. I'll look out for it in the future.

[lokisnow]

or maybe the Inchoroi can't work their own circle of souls when there is another circle of souls preempting it? So they can't reproduce until the space occupied by the human circle of souls is vacated. And perhaps when they stopped the nonman circle of souls--the womb plague--that was when humankind became ensouled. It was their evolutionary kick up the ladder, they gained consciousness and souls, rather than the Inchoroi being allowed to occupy the space, humans took it over, because they were actively breeding, birthing and dying. And nature abhors a vaccumm. Perhaps the Inchoroi were not prepared to begin reproducing when they stopped the non man circle of souls because they didn't think about the vaccuum being filled.

I love pet theories. :)

[Spring Bass]

There's also Seswatha's comments about the Inchoroi being "orphans of the Ark" in one of Akka's visions. Maybe their reproduction was tied to something going on in the ship?

What does it mean to be of the Few if you're an alien species? Were they always this way? Did they have some contact with the Outside before they ever came to Earwa? Is it something innate in anyone? Were they souled before they came to Earwa? Did they have the concept of damnation where they came from, and if so were they going to go there anyway?

I think it's possible that they were ensouled before arriving on Earwa, but that the metaphysics of their world did not permit sorcery. However, when they show up on Earwa, the metaphysics makes it possible for some of them to do it.

As for why Aurang and Aurax both being Few, that might just be selection bias - they're the only two surviving Inchoroi out of thousands, and their sorcery may have been part of why they survived the Nonmen's victory.

[aimlessgun]

Too bad Earwa doesn't have any competent natural philosophers to investigate how this whole soul business works in a rigorous manner. Damn you medieval psychology!

[Happy Ent]

or maybe the Inchoroi can't work their own circle of souls when there is another circle of souls preempting it?

I think a soul is a soul. They are dynamically typed.

For example, the soul that inhabited the Mandati skin spy isn’t a “skin spy soul” that waited in the Outside, in the 5th Circle of Skin Spy Souls, for a lucky skin spy body to hook on to.

To lay out my idea of how this works:

The Outside has some notion of geography that mirrors or mimics the geography of the World. Some homeomorphism (distances need not be preserved, but neighbourhoods remain neighbourhoods). When a body dies in the World, it zooms back to the corresponding location in the Outside, where it waits for a while, until it is reincarnated.

While lingering in the Outside, the objective morality of the Outside is synchronised with the desires of the soul. This is what always happens in Bakker’s metaphysics, it’s just a bit easier in the Outside (remember that the World is the sphere of existence where this “shaping of reality” is hardest.)

That’s it, I think.

Some corollaries:

Movement “through” the Outside, while less constrained than in the World, still has to observe certain topological boundaries. Kellhus can’t teleport over arbitrary distances. Moe has a hard time telephoning.

The effect of World morality on Outside effects, in particular, damnation, is local:

1. A Scarlet Spire that dies in Momemn during the reign of Ikurei Xerius is absolutely damned, because most souls in his area agree on that.

2. A Waterbearer who dies in Shimeh defending the faith will indeed get the 40 observant virgins he’s been promised.

3. The Nonmen lived and died prosperously and happily for millennia. Until they made the fundamental mistake of herding humans and subjecting them to unspeakable terror. Since humans die faster, their morality updates the Outside more often. This damned the Nonmen. In fact, the effect is so strong and so local that the Outside leaked into the World at these places.

(Aside: I love this. This is how Bakker makes his “lastborn” the morally superiour species. His Elves (the Nonmen) are superiour in every respect, just like with Tolkien. But short lifespans are an asset because the species with the shorter lifespan gets to shape the Outside with their beliefs. Strength through numbers and weakness. I haven’t seen this solution to this paradox of Epic Fantasy before.)

4. The Inchoroi are hedonists and come from a planet of hedonists. So no damnation on Inchworld. Alternatively, they are space-faring exactly because there can never be a local morality that becomes a problem for them. Crashing on Eärwa must have been really, really disadvantageous for them, because they had little possibility of “updating” the Outside in sufficient numbers of frequency. So what could they do, once they realised their predicament? Plan A: make the Nonmen your friends. (Didn’t work.) Plan B: Stop the Nonmen Circle of Souls, so that the Nonmen can’t update the Outside anymore. Kill their women, for example. Or build some gadget that interferes with Soul transmission. This did work, but made the Nonmen mighty angry, leading to a war of extinction. Worse, the pesky humans also had souls, and their morality was also ill aligned with the Inchoroi’s.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

I tend to agree with Inchoroi repersenting one aspect of possible future humanity. I have always read them as representation of modernity's rampant consumerism and culture of instant gratification (exaggerated, sure, but then so are Wells' Martians who also were supposed to be future of humanity. There is also short story by Walter Jon Williams called "Dinosaurs"" which features quite convincing future posthuman not very different from an Inchoroi.)

Dunyain, OTOH, seem to be representing another possible future - that of pure rationality overcoming primitive passions. Non-men not so much, IMHO. They seem to be genuine others and as yet don't show any signs of being metaphor for some aspect of humanity (but it is still only a half of the story, of course, so it still can change.)

[aimlessgun]

There is also the concept of 'rape culture'. So hey, why not.

4. The Inchoroi are hedonists and come from a planet of hedonists. So no damnation on Inchworld. Alternatively, they are space-faring exactly because there can never be a local morality that becomes a problem for them. Crashing on Eärwa must have been really, really disadvantageous for them, because they had little possibility of “updating” the Outside in sufficient numbers of frequency. So what could they do, once they realised their predicament? Plan A: make the Nonmen your friends. (Didn’t work.) Plan B: Stop the Nonmen Circle of Souls, so that the Nonmen can’t update the Outside anymore. Kill their women, for example. Or build some gadget that interferes with Soul transmission. This did work, but made the Nonmen mighty angry, leading to a war of extinction. Worse, the pesky humans also had souls, and their morality was also ill aligned with the Inchoroi’s.

Interesting theory. Can you solve the problem of why the Inchoroi particularly care about their damnation if they are immortal (seemingly)?

2nd question, regarding local variation: so if Achamian hikes way out into the sticks with nobody but him and Mimara, would she start seeing him as less and less damned? Mmm maybe bad example because Achamian probably thinks he's still damned.

3rdly..if updating is occurring when people die, would you predict that not enough Kellhus believers have died to allow him to save anybody? As such, the fastest way to make the outside recognize him as a true Prophet would be to kill off vast quantities of believers.......hmmm.

[Happy Ent]

Interesting theory. Can you solve the problem of why the Inchoroi particularly care about their damnation if they are immortal (seemingly)?

They are immortal in the same sense that, say, a Noldo Elf like Feänor is immortal. It doesn’t mean they cannot die.

2nd question, regarding local variation: so if Achamian hikes way out into the sticks with nobody but him and Mimara, would she start seeing him as less and less damned? Mmm maybe bad example because Achamian probably thinks he's still damned.

It’s not interestingly different from how our morality works in our world. The only difference is that the karmic justice (damnation, for example) is real. For example, arborism may be viewed as acceptable where you come from.

3rdly..if updating is occurring when people die, would you predict that not enough Kellhus believers have died to allow him to save anybody? As such, the fastest way to make the outside recognize him as a true Prophet would be to kill off vast quantities of believers.......hmmm.

Yes, that would follow.

[aimlessgun]

They are immortal in the same sense that, say, a Noldo Elf like Feänor is immortal. It doesn’t mean they cannot die.

Well, they can die, but they don't have to put themselves in danger. Unless they figure humans will eventually take over the planet completely, which I guess is a reasonable assumption.

It’s not interestingly different from how our morality works in our world. The only difference is that the karmic justice (damnation, for example) is real. For example, arborism may be viewed as acceptable where you come from.

Right, talking about your example of mage dying in Shimeh going to heaven but mage dying in Sumna going to hell, based on the beliefs of the local inhabitants: if that mage goes out into the wilds where there are no inhabitants, does he get an afterlife based only on his soul's beliefs, or is he subject to some sort of 'average planetary belief'.

[TheEvilKing]

(Aside: I love this. This is how Bakker makes his “lastborn” the morally superiour species. His Elves (the Nonmen) are superiour in every respect, just like with Tolkien. But short lifespans are an asset because the species with the shorter lifespan gets to shape the Outside with their beliefs. Strength through numbers and weakness. I haven’t seen this solution to this paradox of Epic Fantasy before.)

I love this.

I also greatly enjoy watching you chaps debate about this series. It's quite remarkable.