Bay Area students wear Stars-&-Stripes to class

[El-ahrairah]

2) Again (although it will almost certainly be ignored again), NO ONE is saying the American flag is inherently offensive; what has been said over and over in this thread is that the USE of an American flag to make a racially charged statement is offensive.

3) There is nothing wrong with being proud of your country; but if you need to shit on someone else's heritage in order to show said pride, there may be something wrong with you.

Doubtless it is indeed possible to use the American flag to make racially charged statements. This comes to mind, as does this and this. But I submit that Old Glory T-shirts are a far cry from those.

Now I well admit maybe these students were intending to make some sort of racialist point. But if so, they did a pretty lousy job of it. Rather like trying to make someone drunk by offering him a glass of water. And actions should be punished, not thoughts.

[TerraPrime]

Doubtless it is indeed possible to use the American flag to make racially charged statements. This comes to mind, as does this and this. But I submit that Old Glory T-shirts are a far cry from those.

How is it that you will consider the use of the American flag in the last image you linked to be an example of a use of the flag that is offensive, but you cannot accept that these 5 student's concerted effort to wear an American flag t-shirt on Cinco de Mayo in a heavily Mexican-American school while the national debate is drawn to the anti-immigration law in Arizona can be offensive to some people?

[El-ahrairah]

How is it that you will consider the use of the American flag in the last image you linked to be an example of a use of the flag that is offensive, but you cannot accept that these 5 student's concerted effort to wear an American flag t-shirt on Cinco de Mayo in a heavily Mexican-American school while the national debate is drawn to the anti-immigration law in Arizona can be offensive to some people?

Just so. It's not a Mexican school, it's an American school, albeit one happening to have some students of Mexican ancestry. As such, it's an entirely different situation from American immigrants to Mexico - if such creatures exist - flying the American flag on a Mexican holiday. That, I admit, would be a bit rude.

Now, about the immigration debate. I'm sure it has inflamed some passions against those coming from south of the border. But after 9/11, quite a few people were most angry at Arab-Americans. Does that mean it was wrong to fly the American flag during Ramadan back then? And anyhow, the school's in central California - nowhere near Arizona.

As to your question, the flag together with white hoods is offensive because it stands for a group, as I sincerely hope we all know, whose favorite pastime was to beat and kill gentlemen of color. However, the flag together with... um... nothing stands for the good 'ol US of A and precious little else.

[Annelise]

And anyhow, the school's in central California - nowhere near Arizona.

Paula James is a spokesperson for the Central Coast Minuteman Corps of California, an organization that claims to work to secure America's borders. She said, "I'm 100-percent in support of the new Arizona immigration law. California needs to adopt the same law."

http://www.ksby.com/news/arizonas-new-immigration-law-stirring-reaction-in-california/

CAVANAUGH: Now how would you feel about California adopting a similar law?

[Congressman]HUNTER: I think it’s a good thing for California to adopt a similar law. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.

http://www.kpbs.org/news/2010/apr/28/san-diegans-react-arizona-immigration-law/

Meanwhile..

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa is backing the boycott of Arizona proposed by members of the Los Angeles City Council.

Senate President Pro Tem Darrell Steinberg (D-Sacramento) sent a letter to Republican Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger asking for an inventory of Arizona businesses and government agencies with which California does business.

Arizona's new immigration law has renewed a ferocious debate between proponents lauding the stringent measure against illegal immigrants and opponents who say the law is in-your-face racist.

In the last few days, ocregister.com readers have participated in an intense online discussion about local reaction to Arizona's law, which would crack down on illegal immigrants and those who hire them and Costa Mesa Mayor Allan Mansoor's advocating for more stringent policies in his own city.

The stories have logged more than 650 reader comments as of noon Friday.

Most readers who commented applauded Arizona's law, saying it is being misrepresented and mislabeled as racist legislation. A few sided with opponents to the legislation, saying racial profiling would be inevitable when trying to enforce the law, which would violate legal residents' civil rights.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/law-246678-illegal-immigration.html

The point being that the AZ law is obviously a topic of conversation in California, which I believe has a Hispanic population of 36% or so and an estimated 3 million illegal immigrants, many of whom are of Hispanic decent.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

FLoW,

What is it with your obsession with this event? You keep bringing it up.

Because it is evidence of the context and issues that have been percolating out there for quite awhile. It's why pretending that cinco de mayo is always just the equivalent of a fun St. Patrick's Day is bogus. For many it is, but not for some. If you don't consider the very real,serious issues that have been building in those part of the country for decades, you lose the context of the events to which the students wearing those t-shirts were responding.

I do not care about it. It has nothing to do with Morgan Hill.

. Of course it does. This is not a new issue, and it's not localized to just Morgan Hill. These tensions have been existing in those states for years, and Morgan Hill is just the most recent incident that caught the attention of the press.

The girl's remark has a very obvious meaning. It has nothing to do with reconquista, or of deliberately avoiding the use of the American flag on the Fourth of July. She meant she would not use a Mexican flag on the Fourth of July with the intention of delivering a politically divisive message.

Her belief that the two somehow should have equal status - our flag v.yours - is precisely the problem. The American flag is her flag, regardless of whether its cinco de mayo.

Doubtless it does, though it's a fringe position among Chicanos, and always was a fringe position cooked up in the radicalized late 60's/early 70's, when so many other political movements were radicalized.

It's not relevant to why the vast majority of Mexican-Americans celebrate their heritage on Cinco de Mayo.

I think you're wrong about that in terms of what is happening in some places out there. Most of the major hispanic groups disavow it for obvious reasons. But its not a fringe opinion. Not a majority, but not just a fringe either. Anyway, all those patriotic Mexican-Americans for whom it is just a cultural festival, the U.S. Flag wouldn't offend them the least because they'd probably be flying it themselves anyway.

Uhm. Many Mexican-Americans are proud to be Americans? And they are also proud to be of Mexican heritage. Hence, they can wave the American flag and the Mexican flag.

Exactly.

Being Cuban-American, I am very used to seeing the Cuban flag as a symbol of cultural pride, and yet I am still an American. Mexican-Americans are the same..

Many are. But some aren't, and that's the difference out there. My dad's in Miami, I've been down there a lot, and really can't imagine any cuban-american I've ever met getting offended by an American flag regardless of the day. The southwest situation is not the same, unfortunately. And to go back to the flag incident you say is irrelevant, can you honestly see that ever happening in the cuban-american community.

[Tempra]

Tempra,

No, we don't have to ignore that history for it to be a great analogy. The history of it makes the analogy even more compelling.

It really doesn't. Many / most African-Americans consider the Confederate flag to be a symbol of hatred, slavery, and racism. No such connotations (or equally repugnant) exist for Mexican-Americans and the US flag.

Generally,

I don't think the Mexican-American students were, properly speaking, offended by the American flag. What they were offended by was the impulse -- the thought process -- that led those students to organize* this particular example of political speech. The "patriotism" being expressed was one that was attempting to exclude and make light of those students who were celebrating Cinco de Mayo. It's jingoism, not patriotism, and so, yes, in this context the "flag" -- or rather, those who are waving it around -- are being offensive. They are sullying the flag by turning it into a deliberately divisive symbol.

Attempting to exclude? What are you even basing this on?

I don't know that I would call it racist, however. But, would I be surprised if a specifically racist agenda was involved? No. No, I would not. It's either racist, in any case, or it's jingoistic. Neither would be appropriate conduct in that particular context.

As has already been pointed out, this "racist" agenda was instigated by at least one Mexican-American.

* Go peddle your snake oil elsewhere if you're arguing that five kids wearing flags on their shirts and American flag bandanas -- who the hell wears bandanas these days, much less matching ones, by coincidence? -- was not organized. Similarly, I've a bridge in Brooklyn that I can sell you if you genuinely believe this was unorganized.

Where did this come from? I have never stated that this was unorganized.

[gryphon strike]

Ha ha, when Al Smith lost he was supposed to have sent a telegram to the Vatican: "Unpack". But now Catholic politicians just ignore what the Pope says...

Just like pretty much everyone else does:P

I cannot help but wonder if the teachers had explained to the kids that going back to class dressed like that would probably get them killed. Then offering them a change of clothes. I think the kids would change clothes.

Seriously though even though they were trying to provoke a reaction, why should the hispanic community get up in arms about it?

wouldn't laughing at them make more sense?

[Lord O' Bones]

Being a dick is not a crime. Assuming that was the intention.

Under no circumstance should displaying the flag of your country be an offense in said country.

Just because you take offense to something I did does not necessarily make it offensive just because it's your interpretation that makes it that way.

[Ser Greguh]

Being a dick is not a crime. Assuming that was the intention.

Under no circumstance should displaying the flag of your country be an offense in said country.

Just because you take offense to something I did does not necessarily make it offensive just because it's your interpretation that makes it that way.

Absolutely nobody is saying that these kids broke any laws or should be arrested. Why are you wasting time arguing against strawmen?

Of course the specific act of taking offense to is subjective. Just as there are people with thin skin who will take offense to anything, there are plenty that are oblivious to all but the most obvious insults.

But just because something has a significant subjective criteria doesn't mean there isn't any objectivity whatsoever. It's like the old argument about movies: whether or not you like a movie is subjective, but if you think that Dude, Where's my Car is a better movie than The Godfather, you're wrong.

Belief that the intent of these students was likely to garner attention at the expense of giving offense to some is perfectly reasonable.

[Annelise]

Seriously though even though they were trying to provoke a reaction, why should the hispanic community get up in arms about it? wouldn't laughing at them make more sense?

I don't know the racial make up of this rally, but I thought this was a constructive response:

By Friday, talk radio at both extremes of the political spectrum were aflame with angry callers, and the controversy seemed on the verge of spiraling out of control.

That's when students convened a "peace rally" near the school's theater, asking everyone to calm down. "They had a moment of silence for the teachers who have been getting hate mail from all over the country," said junior Marcos Lopez. Then the flags — one American, one Mexican — were displayed together. "They were saying it was really stupid what everyone did," said freshman Gordon Gunther Jr.

Just then, a man drove by the school waving an American flag out the window of his pickup truck. "I just think that's stupid," said Andrew Pitzer, a junior. His friend Gordon shook his head and added, "That's what keeps it going."

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15039368

[Lord O' Bones]

Absolutely nobody is saying that these kids broke any laws or should be arrested. Why are you wasting time arguing against strawmen?

Apologies. That was meant in the same snarky sense as "skateboarding is not a crime."

Belief that the intent of these students was likely to garner attention at the expense of giving offense to some is perfectly reasonable.

Agreed. Nevertheless, sending them home or making them change was wrong.

[Annelise]

More reports:

A school administrator took away the Mexican flag she was carrying as she was waiting to go home. Ponce said: "not cool."

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce said. Some were saying "Mexico sucks" while Mexican-American students responded in their second language.

"Some were yelling Spanish to us," Maciel said, who is half-Hispanic. "I couldn't understand it, but it sounded bad."

Some Mexican-American students said that their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but none were sent home for wearing red, white and green. Since Boden would not comment, it's uncertain if any other students were sent home for what they were wearing on Cinco de Mayo.

Here's what the superintendent had to say:

The Morgan Hill Unified School District does not prohibit nor do we discourage wearing patriotic clothing. The incident on May 5 at Live Oak High School is extremely unfortunate. While campus safety is our primary concern and administrators made decisions yesterday in an attempt to ensure campus safety, students should not, and will not, be disciplined for wearing patriotic clothing. This situation and our response are under review.We know that this is an emotionally charged topic. We would ask you to encourage your students to be safe and focus on their academics while in school. If conversations and/or activities are necessary to express their feelings on this issue, we will find appropriate venues that do not disturb student learning or jeopardize the safety of our students. Furthermore, we encourage everyone to demonstrate respect for each other, open communication, and responsibility. Thank you for your support and understanding.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37025274/

The principal said this:

The school's principal, Nicholas Boden, issued a public apology for moving "too quickly in drawing the line of when to take preventive action."

[Annelise]

Because it is evidence of the context and issues that have been percolating out there for quite awhile. It's why pretending that cinco de mayo is always just the equivalent of a fun St. Patrick's Day is bogus. For many it is, but not for some. If you don't consider the very real,serious issues that have been building in those part of the country for decades, you lose the context of the events to which the students wearing those t-shirts were responding.

Indeed. I should have posted the article I was reading about illegal immigrants & the California border in the early 90s and how the favored crossings shifted to AZ. Anyway, just in this particular town:

But the racial strife being buzzed about in Morgan Hill's supermarkets and coffee shops this week seemed less a media creation than a long-simmering problem that the flag tempest revealed. Laura Camacho, who held her daughter Annika out of school fearing violence, graduated from Live Oak in the early '90s. She's Irish and celebrates St. Patrick's Day, but she's married to a Mexican-American.

"There has always been racial tension, even when I went here," Camacho said, sitting in a car outside the school.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_15039368?nclick_check=1

[TheKassi]

I also don't think it's wrong to consider racism a possible motive. Teens are just as capable of racism as adults

It would be just as wrong to assume adults were racist when they did nothing even remotely racist or provocative. These kids sat around a table eating brunch while wearing American flag t-shirts during a holiday that means more to Americans then Mexicans.

That as the entirety of the act in question, regardless of how much people wish to dance around that and pretend these kids actions are equivalent to screaming slurs. I am more then ready to call someone a racist the moment they do something motivated by race, but this is just silly.

Supporting a border fencing, racist.

Equating Hispanic people who come over to work with drug dealers and murderers, racist.

Equating the Hispanic immigration debate with national security, racist.

Report an illegal day, racist.

Aligning one's self politically against opening the border, racist, or pandering to racists, which is worse.

Arizona law, racist.

Being against the Arizona boycott, racist.

The tea baggers “shop in Arizona day”, racist hypocrisy that proves the lie of the 'small government' rhetoric.

Five kids wearing an American flag on Cinco de Mayo, not racist, or provocative. Hell, the fact that they told news people they were eating brunch is more provocative then wearing flag t-shirts. Brunch? Freaking preppies.

Even that however deserves nothing more then a roll of the eyes. Something that provokes you into rolling your eyes? Not provocative. Any response to the actions of these boys above a roll of the eyes? Overreaction.

Insecure chauvinism at worst, and even that requires a leap of assumption.

[Annelise]

Her belief that the two somehow should have equal status - our flag v.yours - is precisely the problem. The American flag is her flag, regardless of whether its cinco de mayo.

Yeah, that's not the message I take away from that or the flag pole incident you're referring too. To me, the back and forth with the flags is like giving someone the finger. I don't take it as a serious suggestion or push to fly the Mexican flag with the American on our flag poles; to equate them, as it were.

[Annelise]

It would be just as wrong to assume adults were racist when they did nothing even remotely racist or provocative.

Well, I agree it would also be wrong to assume racism in the case of adults. I don't agree that they did nothing remotely provocative, however. I just can't believe in that level of ignorance, here. That said, I think the school is to blame for turning this into a national event.

I'm also not a fan of the two parents who immediately ran to the media and the one who started booking interviews, I have to say; I think they should have waited to see what the district had to say first.

I'm also not a fan of the students who said/demanded the kids in question should be suspended. They need a dose of discretion, too.

[Myshkin]

The fact that one of the kids was Mexican American probably argues against the move being a purely racist one. I think jingoistic is a far better term in this case.

In no way does one of the kids being of Mexican descent preclude his actions from being racially motivated. We are talking about teenagers here. Teenagers try to fit in, and if the prevailing attitude is one of general disdain towards Mexicans you can bet that there will be kids of Mexican descent who will adopt this attitude. In fact they will likely be the most outspoken of the lot. One of the most racist people I have ever known was a white supremacist I went to junior high with in San Diego. His name was Armando, and his mother was Mexican, his father Filipino.

I do agree. They were trying to make a statement of sorts and seem to be quite surprised by all the outrage. They are only kids and kids some times do stupid stuff. What I find ridiculous is the charges of racism leveled at them. Talk about making mountains out of mole hills.

Let's get this clear here and now: please tell me what statement you think these kids were trying to make. State it plainly, as there seems to be a lot of dancing around on the subject in this thread.

[TheKassi]

I don't agree that they did nothing remotely provocative, however. I just can't believe in that level of ignorance, here.

Ignorance doesn't enter into it. They did nothing provocative because nothing they did was designed to, or should even be expected to provoke any sort of reaction. They sat at a table eating brunch wearing just about the least offensive or rebellious attire one can imagine. They didn't crash a party or a gathering. They didn't intentionally insinuate themselves in a group of people talking. They didn't shout inflammatory rhetoric, or even talk trash in an inside voice. They didn't block a sidewalk. Their group didn't passively reject a particular ethnicity, and has not in any way accused of being exclusionary. Heck they were displaying the commonality that binds over three hundred million people.

This whole debate is akin to arguing that two guys holding hands in a park is antagonistic. There is nothing antagonistic about such a thing, even if the gentlemen know they are in an extremely bigoted part of the country. Anyone who finds the actions offensive and provocative does so because of the things that are wrong in their own head, the actions of the gentlemen are incidental.

Jest because one person, or a group of people, is ticked of by the actions of another doesn't make the actions of the second party provocative or antagonistic.

[Ran]

FLoW,

It's why pretending that cinco de mayo is always just the equivalent of a fun St. Patrick's Day is bogus.

200 years ago, colonials would mock St. Patrick's Day by hanging stuffed "Paddies" out of doors, and as recently as a hundred-odd years ago there were major riots associated with anti-Irish sentiment during St. Patrick's Day. St. Patrick's Day was not always merely a "fun" event. I propose that a hundred years from now, Cinco de Mayo, too, will matter rather a lot less to those who may have wanted to make anti-immigration/anti-Mexican statements when others are trying to have a nice day featuring some cultural pride.

The similarities go further, actually, between the 19th century Irish and modern 21st century Mexicans in the U.S. Tension with nativists, third generation Irish-Americans joining in xenophobic sentiments against new waves of Irishmen, and so on.

But its not a fringe opinion. Not a majority, but not just a fringe either.

I disagree with you on this particular ground. I'd be interested in seeing if there's been any polls in the last year or two. I know Zogby carried out a poll in 2002 which claimed 58% of Mexicans felt that way, but I think I vaguely recall some arguments regarding his sampling in that particular case.

My dad's in Miami, I've been down there a lot, and really can't imagine any cuban-american I've ever met getting offended by an American flag regardless of the day.

As I and others have repeatedly said, I don't think the quoted student was offended by the flag. She was offended by the jingoistic, divisive statement behind the use those students put the flag to.

Much as you are not offended by the American flag in itself, but the statement that Mexican student who hung it upside down was making with it.

[TheKassi]

As I and others have repeatedly said, I don't think the quoted student was offended by the flag. She was offended by the jingoistic, divisive statement behind the use those students put the flag to.

Isn't that a pretty hypocritical double standard? Flying a flag about, dressing up, and painting your face to celebrate a military victory that took place a hundred and fifty years ago is about as jingoistic as one can get. Given that a particular nationality lost that battle, it seems pretty divisive to.

So if jingoism is offensive, why are the actions of the larger, louder, and more aggressive group perfectly innocent, while the actions of the smaller, quieter, and passive group antagonistic?