Bay Area students wear Stars-&-Stripes to class

[Lord O' Bones]

Wearing the colors of your nation, within your nation, should be sacrosanct.

Period.

If you choose to be a douchebag about it... well, that's on you.

[MinDonner]

Wearing the colors of your nation, within your nation, should be sacrosanct.

Period.

If you choose to be a douchebag about it... well, that's on you.

In an ideal world, yes. In the real world, alas, national flags have regularly been hijacked by jingoistic and racist groups, to the extent that it's viewed as very suspect to display them at all. I'm actually amazed that the outrage here from patriots has been at the Mexicans who dared to get offended, and not at the students who presumed to co-opt the flag to make a possibly racist, definitely jingoistic statement. I hate to go all slippery-slope, but really, if you let the idiots define what the flag means, it's not long before it's totally tarnished. Symbols don't have meaning in and of themselves, they are assigned meaning by what people think of them, and believe me, this is not a trend you want to see continue.

(and no, I don't think the kids should have been sent home, but that doesn't make it invalid to call them out on having shitty motives.)

[TheKassi]

The word Jingo has been thrown around a lot of late, and it is another example of over the top exaggerated rhetoric designed to blow the action out of proportion.

Jingo- noun: a person who professes his or her patriotism loudly and excessively, favoring vigilant preparedness for war and an aggressive foreign policy; bellicose chauvinist.

Bellicose- adjective: inclined or eager to fight; aggressively hostile; belligerent; pugnacious.

An example of how the term would be used incorrectly, or used to grossly exaggerate: Look at those boys sitting quietly eating brunch and not bothering anyone. Clearly their T-shirts make them Jingoes.

There is no such thing as a passive and quite Jingo. That is a contradiction in terms. The fact that the term Jingo is being applied to the boys who were sitting quietly at a table, rather then the crowd of people so offended by American flag t-shirts that school officials were forced to instruct the boys to turn their shirts inside out in the name of school safety, is nonsense. If the term is at all applicable in this situation, it isn't the boys who deserve the label.

[MinDonner]

Nitpicker.

Call it nationalism, then, if that makes you feel better. :P

[TheKassi]

Nitpicker.

Call it nationalism, then, if that makes you feel better. :P

I wouldn't call it nitpicking. A jingo is an idiot who deserves scorn, and is extremely likely to be be extremely freaking annoying.

A person or group who quietly and passively expressing vague nationalism by wearing inoffensive mass-produced t-shirts is nothing worthy of notice, much less outrage. Calling the first group douche bags, idiots, rude, bastards, racists, antagonistic ect is understandable, and in many cases likely to be accurate. Applying similar terms to the second group is unfair, rude, antagonistic...

Particularly when talking about kids, and working off of hypothesized motivation largely based on how much their actions can be caricatured (I.E the claims that their actions are like supporting the Taliban at a Twin Tower memorial, or screaming racial slurs, or that jingoes are defining the American flag.) rather then any form of evidence.

[MinDonner]

Well. OK. I'll try and be clearer, then. What I'm hearing in this thread is "it's the American flag in America, so every possible use of it is by definition OK", and I was just pointing out that this is absolutely not the case in other countries (quite the opposite, in fact), and rather naive to assume that it should always be the case over there too. A flag is not some magic symbol of truth and justice and whatnot that always means good things however it is used.

I know very little about this particular situation, I was speaking more in generalities, but really, if a bunch of white guys over here came in to a school with a sizeable Asian minority, all wearing Union Jacks, whatever day it was (unless it was specifically a British holiday), it would undoubtedly be because they were a bunch of racist fucks, regardless of whether they spent the entire day sitting down eating brunch or cucumber sandwiches or whatthefuckever. :dunno:

[Ran]

From the Oxford English Dictionary:

3. A nickname for those who supported and lauded the policy of Lord Beaconsfield in sending a British fleet into Turkish waters to resist the advance of Russia in 1878; hence, one who brags of his country's preparedness for fight, and generally advocates or favours a bellicose policy in dealing with foreign powers; a blustering or blatant ‘patriot’; a Chauvinist.

Five kids organizing to wear American flag bandanas because they didn't like a day of Mexican heritage being celebrated is, in my book, pretty blatant, blustering, and ill-considered behavior. It was divisive behavior. It was divisive behavior 200 years ago when the Stars & Stripes were brought out to tell off the Irish celebrating St. Patrick's Day, and it's divisive behavior now.

There is, in any case, nothing sacred about the flag. It is just a flag. It's the people who use it that matter, and what they mean when they use it. It's obvious to me what these kids meant to say. It wasn't smart, it wasn't helpful, it wasn't clever.

[TheKassi]

A flag is not some magic symbol of truth and justice and whatnot that always means good things however it is used.

Fine, I can accept that, without judgment or comment.

A flag also isn't a magical symbol of racism and bigotry, that stains anyone that touches it, regardless of what they are doing, how unobtrusive or innocuous they are, or how willing they are to accept people of the very ethnicity they are supposedly demonstrating against into their coterie.

That is my point. Even in your own example, it isn't the presence of the British Flag that makes that crowd of people a bunch of worthless bigots, it is the signs claiming the country is full. I doubt you would have linked it if the signs said “Tea>Coffee” or some such. The only 'offensive' thing about the actions of these boys was their shirts. That is the sum total of the case against them. There is nothing else in the reporting to incriminate them.

I can accept that the flag isn't a magical symbol of truth and justice, but if you accept that it also isn't a magical symbol of racism and bigotry, then there is nothing to about the actions of these boys worth commenting about, much less scorn worthy.

Five kids organizing to wear American flag bandanas because they didn't like a day of Mexican heritage being celebrated is, in my book, pretty blatant, blustering, and ill-considered behavior.

Well, you don't know everything after the word because, so let me fix that for you.

Five kids organizing to wear American flag bandanas is, in my book, pretty blatant, blustering, and ill-considered behavior.

Well now, seems like the fact that you are not lumping in the people celebrating an old army victory over a bunch of foreigners is a pretty hypocritical double standard. Besides, diluting the term 'jingo' to include any expression of any form of nationalism to make the square peg fit through the round hole seems intellectually dishonest, particularly when that dilution is applied selectively.

[MinDonner]

Even in your own example, it isn't the presence of the British Flag that makes that crowd of people a bunch of worthless bigots, it is the signs claiming the country is full. I doubt you would have linked it if the signs said “Tea>Coffee” or some such.

Heh. That's only cos my cursory Googling didn't immediately turn up any scary skinheads in Union Jacks without banners present. Try this one or this one or this one or this one....

In any case, of course I agree that, in itself, a flag is not automatically a symbol of racism. Of course it's not. It depends who is using it, and why. In this instance, it's clear that these lads a) deliberately arranged to all wear the flags at the same time and b ) did so on a day that was special to Mexican-Americans. Especially given the current furore about Mexican immigration, and the particular racial makeup of their district, it seems extremely blinkered to deny that this was more an anti-Mexican statement they were making, rather than an exclusively pro-US one (fuck yeah!). Are you really saying you're happy for your flag to be used like that?

Now, I think this whole thing has been blown out of all proportion (cos it's just some kids with T-shirts FFS), but as with all these threads, it's not about the original case any more, it's become more about convincing those who deny that there's even a problem. I know the UK has different attitudes to flag-waving than you do, but the co-opting of our flag by racists didn't just happen by itself. Let the small stuff slip by unchallenged and you can easily end up with your flag ceasing to mean "I'm proud to be Nationality X" and turning into "I'm Nationality X AND YOU'RE NOT SO FUCK OFF YOU FOREIGNER". Not a straw man, it's happened right here.

edit for dodgy links

[TheKassi]

Heh. That's only cos my cursory Googling didn't immediately turn up any scary skinheads in Union Jacks without banners present. Try this one or this one or this one or this one....

I am not frightened by any of those pictures, but that might be cultural. I am generally surrounded by folk in the police or military, so a high and tight/flag tattoo isn't something that I would blink at. Is the red cross flag drenched in racist history, like the confederate flag?

But yeah, I would take a bit of offense to the claim that a bald head and a flag tattoo means your are a skin head. I was engaged to an African American man who sported both, and if he was alive, I am quite sure he would be shocked to find out he was a white supremacist.

Kind of like how I figure the Hispanic kid in this group would be shocked to find out he didn't like Mexicans.

Then again, I am not at all frightened by this slide show:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/slideshows/fiesta/Cinco_de_Mayo.html?c=n#1

Which depicts a recreation of a bunch of Mexicans killing Europeans, a recreation preformed in celebrations surrounding the holiday in question. Actions way above that of these boys on the “Mild Nationalism or Jingoism?” scale.

Are you really saying you're happy for your flag to be used like that?

I couldn't care less. If every bigot in America limited themselves to sitting quietly in small groups while wearing American flag t-shirts I would probably spend the rest of my life dancing a jig.

As for the slippery slope argument. Racism is already a part of American law. As is homophobia. I find the argument that 'Letting teens sit quietly while in flag t-shirts is going to lead intolerance” argument kind of silly. Even if these boys are racists (Which seems odd to me, given that one of them is Hispanic, but this is hypothetical) I wish our country was balanced precariously at the edge of that slope. It would be a pretty nice improvement over people going to the funerals of our fallen wielding signs declaring that their god hates homosexuals. I would much rather they had sat quietly across the street wearing what would jesus do t-shirts while talking softly among themselves and eating finger sandwiches.

[Annelise]

Jest because one person, or a group of people, is ticked of by the actions of another doesn't make the actions of the second party provocative or antagonistic.

Whether we agree it should or not is separate matter from whether or not it's prime to provoke a reaction. Ignorance is related insomuch as it's related to intent.

I understand you think it shouldn't provoke this reaction. I would love it if everyone was Mexican for the day, like everyone is Irish on St. Pat's. Clearly, we're all not there yet. I think one day we will be, though.

[Snarfy]

Wow hats off to these kids. They wanted to cause a statement and i bet they never dreamed it would go this far. Its amazing how far two sides will go when they get a little butthurt. This is like internet trolling gone bad, only its in rl.

Frankly anyone who finds this situation anything other than hilarious needs to relax on the politically correct crap.

What should have happened was the kids should have just been ignored and in a week or 2 maybe one or more of them would have gotten roughed up, and that would have been the end of the whole thing. But now since an idiot principle decided he didn't like a political statement on a hotly debated topic we have a huge issue. How did he not see this coming??? :shocked:

[Annelise]

So if jingoism is offensive, why are the actions of the larger, louder, and more aggressive group perfectly innocent, while the actions of the smaller, quieter, and passive group antagonistic?

I guess it depends what lens you view it from: Latinos are a minority in this country and in California. And I would hardly characterize the majority as quiet, or passive when it comes to issues of immigration, which is obviously a fault line. That small, quiet minority you refer to is one reason why immigration reform died in '07. That wasn't just Washington's failure.

I think everyone should be able to wear a US or Mexican flag or colors on a t-shirt without another group feeling like they have to retort, so to speak. That's not our reality yet, however.

[Annelise]

How did he not see this coming??? :shocked:

That's the truth. I think many, many people wish he'd thought it through because the fallout has (IMO) created far more division and strife than any of his students could have wearing or waving flags.

[Tempra]

That's the truth. I think many, many people wish he'd thought it through because the fallout has (IMO) created far more division and strife than any of his students could have wearing or waving flags.

Can we blame him? Look at most of the responses in this thread. People here are just as bad as the principal, if not worse.

[Tempra]

I think everyone should be able to wear a US or Mexican flag or colors on a t-shirt without another group feeling like they have to retort, so to speak. That's not our reality yet, however.

Retort? Have you never seen a person wearing/waving a different nations flag on 4th of july? I used to see Cuban, Mexican, British, Dominican, etc, worn on 4th of july. I wasn't offended.

A British person does not identify with the 4th of july (at least not in the way we do). Why in the world should he be precluded from wearing/waving the British flag on 4th of july? Surely not to make some insecure Americans feel better.

[Prince of the North]

That's the truth. I think many, many people wish he'd thought it through because the fallout has (IMO) created far more division and strife than any of his students could have wearing or waving flags.

I agree with you and think it really was a no-win situation for the school. The reason it was no-win was because no official punishment of the students flying the symbolic middle finger toward those observing Cinco de Mayo would or could be seen as agreement and, of course, things may have escalated. On the other hand, we all know that if things had escalated in some way then the Principal would be responsible for that as well as s/he is responsible for school safety/harmony. It was was truly "damned if you do and damned if you don't" so how could they win? :dunno:

[Tempra]

I agree with you and think it really was a no-win situation for the school. The reason it was no-win was because no official punishment of the students flying the symbolic middle finger toward those observing Cinco de Mayo would or could be seen as agreement and, of course, things may have escalated. On the other hand, we all know that if things had escalated in some way then the Principal would be responsible for that as well as s/he is responsible for school safety/harmony. It was was truly "damned if you do and damned if you don't" so how could they win? :dunno:

There was no reason for the principal to suspect that things would have escalated. The students were not inciting Mexican-Americans. There was no suggestion that Mexican-Americans were making threats against the students. The decision was clearly erroneous.

[Annelise]

Retort? Have you never seen a person wearing/waving a different nations flag on 4th of july? I used to see Cuban, Mexican, British, Dominican, etc, worn on 4th of july. I wasn't offended.

That's wonderful; I'll be happy when everyone feels like that but that day is obviously not today.

But to answer your question.. I don't think I have, actually. It's a red, white and blue fest in my neck of the woods. Asked the husband, he can't think of any instances either.

Why in the world should he be precluded from wearing/waving the British flag on 4th of july? Surely not to make some insecure Americans feel better.

Address what I said please, which was not that they should be precluded.

Is it that hard to understand that there's baggage out there that complicates this, there's current events still feeding it, especially in certain parts of the country? I suspect there are a number of moments in our history that the likelihood of encountering a similar reaction to the British flag would be pretty high. Give it the time to become old news & water under the bridge and I imagine you'll see the same here.

[MinDonner]

Can we blame him? Look at most of the responses in this thread. People here are just as bad as the principal, if not worse.

:huh:

Are you even reading the same thread? The "OMG PC gone mad!" responses far outweigh* the "yeah I can see why people got offended" ones, and even in the latter cases, most people agreed that the principal had overreacted. Though it's so cute when you try to pull the victim act that you so often accuse others of ;)

~*I wasn't sure if that was just my bias talking, so yes, I counted. Twelve pages. I hate you.