World of Wacraft

[Kymeera]

Hardmode is not a part of seeing the whole game though. There is no obligation to do it, and if you do you are putting yourself amongst the hardcore - the game is finished when you kill arthas for the first time on any player setting

I disagree strongly with this. "Finished" is a personal goal, and you don't get to set a goal for anybody but yourself. I've killed Arthas, but I am nowhere near finished. I still have 3 more hardmodes in both 10 and 25, loads of achievements, a set of BiS gear, and four more mounts (including Invincible) before I would consider myself finished with the expansion. If I was really feeling ambitious I'd toss up there a nice set of off spec gear.

If you feel that you have completed the game, congratulations! Give yourself a pat on the back. But don't go getting butthurt because people you don't feel are worthy are also crossing your imaginary finish line. So what if Timmy the spirit gemming warrior is able to roll through the first few bosses on normal? That's 6 month old content. Let him have his fun. While he's dicking around with his content you get to play in the bigger sandbox with the shinier toys.

[Migey]

I simply think the entire attitude to WotLK is wrong - that you can be carried if you want to. Pugs are way to prevalent. I think Cata is taking a much better attitude towards this - guild benefits, less Ilvls, etc, but still, i think the attitude is wrong.

Way too many bosses can be hammered through. I think that MUCH more coordination should be required in future fights...skill should matter more then gear, etc.

[Inigima]

Take a random group of scrubs and try to get them through 10man normal Marrowgar, then tell me that.

[Mack Kilimaro]

Take a random group of scrubs and try to get them through 10man normal Marrowgar, then tell me that.

Right now, with the 20% buff, that might not be as hard as you think. But I agree that when the instance was fresh and not everyone was rocking as much ICC or ICC-tier frost emblem gear, that was not an easy prospect, even for the gateway fight to the instance. Your tanks had to learn to stand together, there was an aggro reset at the end of the bone storm, he was immune to taunt, people didn't really understand how to avoid most of the damage, and so on.

To say that the attitude of Wrath is that you can be carried through progression if you want to is, I think, not correct. Even for a pug, why would you keep someone in the group who is clearly not putting in the same effort as everyone else? Sure, if you were in a world first guild or something, probably everything seemed easy the first time around, but for most people everything was a challenge to begin with.

[Kymeera]

I simply think the entire attitude to WotLK is wrong - that you can be carried if you want to. Pugs are way to prevalent. I think Cata is taking a much better attitude towards this - guild benefits, less Ilvls, etc, but still, i think the attitude is wrong.

Way too many bosses can be hammered through. I think that MUCH more coordination should be required in future fights...skill should matter more then gear, etc.

Wow, selective memory much? I remember carrying the shit out of people in vanilla, and any guild that wasn't bleeding edge was doing the same. You had to if you wanted 40 bodies who would show up at a consistent time. Remember the joy when they announced raids were dropping to 25 people and raiding guilds could finally kick those bottom 15-20 people from their rosters?

All the devs did was smooth out the learning curve of raids, and give people hard and easy modes so more people can enjoy the content at their own pace. Maybe some people enjoy slamming their dicks in a desk drawer every few weeks, but that doesn't mean they should design around those people.

[Inigima]

Right now, with the 20% buff, that might not be as hard as you think. But I agree that when the instance was fresh and not everyone was rocking as much ICC or ICC-tier frost emblem gear, that was not an easy prospect, even for the gateway fight to the instance. Your tanks had to learn to stand together, there was an aggro reset at the end of the bone storm, he was immune to taunt, people didn't really understand how to avoid most of the damage, and so on.

To say that the attitude of Wrath is that you can be carried through progression if you want to is, I think, not correct. Even for a pug, why would you keep someone in the group who is clearly not putting in the same effort as everyone else? Sure, if you were in a world first guild or something, probably everything seemed easy the first time around, but for most people everything was a challenge to begin with.

I ran a Marrowgar weekly pug a few weeks ago on my rogue when the buff was 15%. It took over an hour and many, many wipes.

[Weak With The Dawn]

To say that the attitude of Wrath is that you can be carried through progression if you want to is, I think, not correct. Even for a pug, why would you keep someone in the group who is clearly not putting in the same effort as everyone else? Sure, if you were in a world first guild or something, probably everything seemed easy the first time around, but for most people everything was a challenge to begin with.

Normally I'd love to agree with you, but the amount of times I've seen people AFK in pugs on my Priest and Shaman and just seen the RL go "Fuck it, lets 21 man it" and we succeed just tells me that as long as you have 2 or 3 intelligent raiders in a pug you can pull just about anything off. My guilds main healer and I (on my rogue) carried a 10 man VOA the other day. I pulled about 11-12k with the next highest DPS around 5-6 and most ranged not on ORBS and we still succeeded. All the drops were for ranged DPS. Congrats, you two noobs just managed to get ICC level gear without following the mechanics of the fight AND doing shitty DPS, because you got lucky.

Sure, it's just VOA, you might say, but the amount of Weekend raids that I've led with 80% guild casuals that have gotten to Putrecide just proves to me that putting in effort to get your gear and your progression is almost a personal thing. If I weaseled my way into an ICC tomorrow on my low gear priest and used it as an excuse for shitty heals while I played my Xbox on the side, I could get a number of pieces and call it a day.

People seem way more lenient on PUGs then they used to be way back in Vanilla. I'd like to see this change in Cata but I also can't blame Blizzard for catering to a majority of their player base and making it easier to see content. I just really hope it stays roughly around this level and doesn't get worse in the next x-pac because there's only so much I can handle, and watching twobit players get progression is not one of those things.

[Inigima]

Um.

Normally I'd love to agree with you, but the amount of times I've seen people AFK in pugs on my Priest and Shaman and just seen the RL go "Fuck it, lets 21 man it" and we succeed just tells me that as long as you have 2 or 3 intelligent raiders in a pug you can pull just about anything off.

The math required to get 25 - 21 = [2,3] eludes me.

My guilds main healer and I (on my rogue) carried a 10 man VOA the other day. I pulled about 11-12k with the next highest DPS around 5-6 and most ranged not on ORBS and we still succeeded. All the drops were for ranged DPS. Congrats, you two noobs just managed to get ICC level gear without following the mechanics of the fight AND doing shitty DPS, because you got lucky.

You are very lucky, or your healer is very good. That's usually a death sentence.

11-12k DPS is great, but you don't need it for VoA 10 and you aren't supposed to need it.

Sure, it's just VOA, you might say, but the amount of Weekend raids that I've led with 80% guild casuals that have gotten to Putrecide just proves to me that putting in effort to get your gear and your progression is almost a personal thing. If I weaseled my way into an ICC tomorrow on my low gear priest and used it as an excuse for shitty heals while I played my Xbox on the side, I could get a number of pieces and call it a day.

You're ignoring two things. One, guild casuals are still guild, and hopefully don't stand in fire. Two, because of the intentional gear reset, you can get ICC-ready without stepping into a raid. This is a Good Thing, in my view, for the reasons we've discussed above.

People seem way more lenient on PUGs then they used to be way back in Vanilla. I'd like to see this change in Cata but I also can't blame Blizzard for catering to a majority of their player base and making it easier to see content. I just really hope it stays roughly around this level and doesn't get worse in the next x-pac because there's only so much I can handle, and watching twobit players get progression is not one of those things.

I agree with your sentiments but not your reasons. Current-tier raids should be challenging, because, well, that's the whole PvE game at the level cap. But I could not give less of a shit if "bad" players can also progress. I don't see how that diminishes anyone else's enjoyment unless their enjoyment is derived solely from their sense of superiority, which isn't a good thing.

[Shryke]

Saurfang or Deathwhisper (in 25) are usually the PuG killers in my experience.

Hold on. That right there is my point. You were the one only a page ago cheering the downfall of guilds and complaining that a guild was at this time essential to down the hardest endgame content.

And I'm still saying that. That's exactly what my quote says. Jesus, reading comprehension: learn it.

And again, me and Ini aren't the ones complaining here. We LIKE the way the game is.

[Tyrellius]

Overall, I'm pretty much satisfied with the game. Hell, I havent raided in about 18 months and my main is fully decked in Turylons battle gear and my alt warrior tank is sitting on 4/5 Wrynns def gear with 8 days played and I'm debating if I should go tanking ICC10 or get my 70 mage and hunter up to 80 before Cata hits. I am now a dirty rotten casual :)

I do miss pve geared pvping, I do miss 12 hour avs, but shit changes.

Lyanna, whats your toons name?

[Weak With The Dawn]

Um.

The math required to get 25 - 21 = [2,3] eludes me.

Just because there are 21 people does not mean all are good.

You are very lucky, or your healer is very good. That's usually a death sentence.

11-12k DPS is great, but you don't need it for VoA 10 and you aren't supposed to need it.

He is amazing, a far better then my guild deserves, I won't deny that.

And no, I don't need personal DPS of 11-12k, but you're missing the point, when no one is on the orbs and still can't touch 7k, without that net + the healer, they would not have killed the boss. I was worth the DPS of 2 players in that VOA, and it proves that anyone can be carried.

You're ignoring two things. One, guild casuals are still guild, and hopefully don't stand in fire. Two, because of the intentional gear reset, you can get ICC-ready without stepping into a raid. This is a Good Thing, in my view, for the reasons we've discussed above.

You have never run with my guild casuals, trust me when I say I would rather pug certain spots.

I agree with your sentiments but not your reasons. Current-tier raids should be challenging, because, well, that's the whole PvE game at the level cap. But I could not give less of a shit if "bad" players can also progress. I don't see how that diminishes anyone else's enjoyment unless their enjoyment is derived solely from their sense of superiority, which isn't a good thing.

What I'm mostly bitching about is bad players being allowed to be bad. When I'm in a PUG and people tolerate someone screwing us up, that bothers me. If it's your guildy, fine, but if it's some unguilded scrub that no one cares about, why do we allow them through? I would never let one of my raiders slack off and screw us up on farm content, I'm not about to let a pug do it when I know there's potential to not get badges and loot because of it, and that's what rubs me the wrong way. I've seen PUGS get off easy because they have the right gearscore, or because they have the right guild name under their head. Cut those people lose and let them run together, because when they're wiping my raids they ARE affecting my game play.

I liken it to passing a kid who got an F in class, just because the rest of the class passed too. You're not doing anyone any favors. I learned how to play my rogue after getting laughed out of instances in Vanilla. It made me a better player. If I had been hand held and carried I would not be half the player I am today. That's a mentality I can get behind, improving the quality of a PUGs performance, not the PUGs gear.

[Kalbear]

The idea that you have to play 5 days a week to be hardcore is idiotic. We raid 8 hours a week, two nights. There are optional 10 mans if you want to, but no one is forced into that at all. There's no pressure to stay late or try another night.

And we're 11/12 HMs with the 10% buff and have done HLK on 10. We downed LK with no buff. We have Yogg0, Insanity, and realm firsts of everything of note (though that's more speaking to our bad realm than anything else).

Hardcore is a mindset. It's not a poopsock. You can be casual and raid 4 nights a week. You can be hardcore and raid 2.

[Goddess Dictator]

Mostly what it sounds like is he is pissed that he doesn't get to shit all over people just because he has a better Sword of Assfucking than they do, which is not an attitude I have a lot of patience for. Good players should be pleased by gear baselining, because it makes skill differences obvious.

^

this. this exactly.

[Inigima]

Got invited to DPS some heroic ICC on my rogue tonight. I rarely get to do ICC anything on my rogue since melee DPS is a dime a dozen so that was pretty neat. Downed Marrowgar already, we've decided we don't have the DPS to do heroic DW so we're gonna do normal now and press on.

[Warg Arry]

Anyone made a new toon and done the nubville quest run recently? "cake walk"- would be an understatement. But at most you'll leave there maybe half way through lvl 5. That's if you decide to kill outside of quest quota.

I have a feeling that most changes will be to accommodate the 12-16 yr old players group. and also entice the people who prefer an easier time of it.

Don't get me wrong. I can't agree completely with the "let's get back to the ol elitists days". I play for fun, to unwind and escape from reality for a bit. As soon as it comes with stress and work and not much fun. I'm not playing for a while.

But it shouldn't be a sliver spoon run. there should be challenge. There should be an incentive to want to know what your about to get into and hone your skills for the best results for you and the team. be it guildies or pro pugs. (enough with the hating on the pugs alright, some people don't have much of a choice. Or just prefer to play that way. :P )

At the moment though it really sucks being Heals. (restro Shammy) It doesn't seem like that long ago, that Heals Job was to keep the Tank alive and DPS floating from collateral dmg. and if the tank kept agro and DPS stuck to...DPS then there was never much of a problem. and also after a boss or a large mob, it was expected that at least Heals would need to mana up and that was a given.

Now..I'm lucky to get 1 group in 4 that play like that. The last run I did. There was a mage throwing spells at mobs with spell reflect and dying. he'd then whisper me and ask if I'm retarded..then the DK either runs ahead and pulls agro before the group was ready or death grips a boss away from the tank and goes down quicker than you'd believe. But No.. all that was some how the Heals fault. The tank btw was awesome. it was a rush keeping him alive. he kept agro and did a crap load of the work. But I just couldn't take the abuse from the DPS anymore. And for the first time ever I ragequit. Felt bad about it afterwards. But I haven't gone back to play her for 2 months now. I'm thinking of dual spec'ing for DPS.

But right not I'm building a pally to run with a lock. going for Retribution: 5/10/56 (that's the plan anyway) I'm open to better suggestions though.

[Mentat]

The idea that you have to play 5 days a week to be hardcore is idiotic. We raid 8 hours a week, two nights. There are optional 10 mans if you want to, but no one is forced into that at all. There's no pressure to stay late or try another night.

And we're 11/12 HMs with the 10% buff and have done HLK on 10. We downed LK with no buff. We have Yogg0, Insanity, and realm firsts of everything of note (though that's more speaking to our bad realm than anything else).

Hardcore is a mindset. It's not a poopsock. You can be casual and raid 4 nights a week. You can be hardcore and raid 2.

Well, we do raid 5 days a week (at least my guild does, and I try to be present unless I have other commitments) and we're still wiping at normal Sindy with the 20% buff. Last night was painful. 2 hours of tries and the best we could do was get her down to 5 million. I guess I'm prepared to consider the possibility that we might all suck, but I'm pretty sure that without things like the buff my guild would be very dead. We're also second horde guild on our server, so it's not like we're the dumbest kids in our school :(

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, whats your toons name?

My main is a priest, Auryn. You might also find me on Felysin (pala tank) if my guild is forcing me to tank as the other tank are sitting exams around now (I'm not joking, ALL of them :stunned: ).

Now..I'm lucky to get 1 group in 4 that play like that. The last run I did. There was a mage throwing spells at mobs with spell reflect and dying. he'd then whisper me and ask if I'm retarded..then the DK either runs ahead and pulls agro before the group was ready or death grips a boss away from the tank and goes down quicker than you'd believe. But No.. all that was some how the Heals fault. The tank btw was awesome. it was a rush keeping him alive. he kept agro and did a crap load of the work. But I just couldn't take the abuse from the DPS anymore. And for the first time ever I ragequit. Felt bad about it afterwards. But I haven't gone back to play her for 2 months now. I'm thinking of dual spec'ing for DPS.

As a looong time healer, you

a. explain to the mage in PARTY CHAT that he is being spell reflected. Don't w him, tell it to him so everyone can see. If he keeps doing it and whinging, tell him "Mage, you are killing yourself on spellreflect. Please stop killing yourself, I won't heal you any more if you're just being dumb." If he whinges, say "Congrats to your repair bill" and put him on ignore. Trust me, if the tank is not a moron, the Vote to Kick will NOT be you.

b. Stop healing dumb DPS. If they whinge, then tell them to stop taking unnecessary damage and that you don't heal idiots. See a. Most will just take it and ask for a res, and if they're real idiots. Just pretend you don't hear them, or tell them to run. If I have muppets in my group, they corpse run. I don't res mouthbreathers.

c. Use the Vote to Kick. Use it often, use it use it use it.

d. If you need to leave for your own sanity, then just leave. With random dungeon it will take you the time it takes to make a cup of coffee to get a new dungeon as a healer. I have a melee DPS DK around 4k GS and I can tell you the dungeon queues are 12 min. It's horrible. Remember with glee when you boot a DPSer it will take him longer that it will you.

e. The tank is often your ally. I have sometimes healed dungeons where I've let the DPS die, and me and the tank stand there happily killing shit while the DPS are moaning. Too bad for them, but harsh lessons are often the best.

f. If muppets pull things before the tank. Tell them to please let the tank pull. Trust me again, the tank will NOT object. His nerves are prolly frayed if he's tanking something with a group of people randomly pulling mobs, Death gripping etc. If you want to be on the tank's side early for some Vote to Kick, w him after the first boss fight and compliment his tanking.

[Warg Arry]

As a looong time healer, you

<snip> bloody awesome advice!

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond. I seriously thought I'd slipped into an alternate reality, where Heals is now bait and janitor and I just didn't get the memo. It seriously went from DPS just copping it sweet if they took dmg and happy enough for me to get to them if I could. To WTB a healer, where's my heals and is that Shammy even healing. ( the tank has responded to that one with, I'm alive aren't I?) You're right, I get raid invites a lot even with out signing up. You've refreshed my healers out look.

Thanks :wub:

[Lyanna Stark]

I think every healer out there has had the same experience as you at least at some point. :) There are a LOT of mouthbreathers out there, unfortunately. Just hang in there. Resto shamans are awesome as well, really versatile healers, amazing party buffs. Don't let some scrub mage and DK tell you you're not good at your job. :grouphug:

Tanks appreciate healers who keep them alive as well. After all, the tank and the healer him/herself are the prio targets. DPS are good to keep alive, but more as a bonus if shit hits the fan. :P But yeah, Vote to Kick is made of awesome. For that alone I think WotlK is the best patch evah to be made.

Our Battlegroup is ok:ish when it comes to manners. I guess it helps that my priest has pretty decent gear and a l33t title and whatnot. People tend to be far ruder to my DK than my priest or pala. (Like tanks and pala healers rolling against me on DPS trinkets, and then laughing at me when I tell them that's not cool.)

In other news we finally got a 10 man hard mode team going yesterday, and one shot everything up to Saurfang (MINUS ME wiping us on Marrowgar once due to a DC :ack: but that doesnt count).

But seriously? Saurfang is really annoying me on hard mode. We tried three man healing, two manning it, and he always killed someone once he hit just under 10% if we two manned it, and tossed out too many marks with three. We even cut down our melee to two altho we always run with three melee in our ten mans. And we never have a shaman either. I hate fights where paladin stacking and bringing a shammy trivializes things. *sigh* We'll just have to keep on cracking and get better at timing taunts, and the one HoP we can dish out. We can DPS down the adds fine, but once we hit two marks things just go to shit if somebody with a mark gets blood boil (during the entire evening, we never got the DPS warrior or one of the tanks to get a mark btw, was ALWAYS on someone with like zero armour too, bleeh.)

Oh and we run mainly in ten man gear since we've mainly been a ten man guild. Couple of 264 bits here and there, but mainly ten man gear for us. Also no replenishment or heroism since we got feral druid and blood DK tank, Holy pala, Disc priest and druid healer, DPS warrior, rogue, lock, arcane mage and MM hunter. The poor drood had to swap to oomkin, just for the knockback. Then we swapped and I went shadowlol and he healed. Still the same, really. Got him to about 8% and then it went to shit.

Should we just skip him until we can bring 2 pallies and a shammy and do the other ones?

[Migey]

Im a tankadin, and sometimes a healer, and i take alot of shit too, only trouble is, sometimes i deserve it ^_^ Im a good player when i play, but i can and often will slack when perhaps i shouldnt.

Despite that, i never slack for more then 1 wipe... until the next fight :o

But as for ICC10 HC, i think you need more gear. Its rather stupid, but blizzard actually made it so 10man hardmodes are VERY difficult to do without PERFECT setup unless you have 25man normal gear... stupid i know but heyhey ^^

Other then that, get a shammy in your team, pop all cooldowns that arnt too long at the start, so when frenzy comes around most of your cooldowns should be up again. Depending on if your dps is very good as a group or no, then you can pop hero at 20 or 30 %, to let your cooldowns reset. If your dps is high enough you can burn it down. With the taunting, just make the tanks keep one finger on the taunt button at all times and it should be fine...

Sorry if my advice sucks :D