Why does Brynden dislike Jon Snow?

[Spaceman Hobbes]

No - at least in my book it was mainly Jon Snow who take this decision. We saw him feeling sorry at some point later on - but it must be said to his credit he never blamed lady Catelyn (or any one else) about that.

Jon could have been part of Robb*s house hold only if he never said the NW vow.

After that moment which IIRC took place after the the war had burst his chances are quite the same as of his uncle Bejen to be a part of Eddard*s household. That is to say - after the vow they obtained many new brothers - all in black.

In fact he made an attempt to join Robb and revenge his father. He was even afraid what would have Robb done if he had joined him. (recollecting Gared*s execution by Ned). Whatever - your statement as quoted above is rather overstretched at the very least IMHO.

Basically what I was trying to say here was that if Ned doesn't leave for KL when he does then Jon most likely would not have left for the wall when he did. Benjen wasn't going to allow it without Ned's blessing and Ned wasn't going to allow it until Jon was fully grown. This time table is moved up when Ned becomes Hand, if everything had happened say, two years later, Robb would have been old enough to rule Winterfall without Catelyn and would have probably prevented Jon from leaving. A lot could change in two years.

[Dreadwolf]

Generally speaking taking the black is quite an honorable option. That was essentially what Ned had said about Jon. His only objection (besides absolutely reasonable) was that it is a decision that only a full grown man can take.

OTOH if there was no (civil) war and if there was no need for Ned to go South (and if a couple of too many other conditions was not the matter of facts one of which being Jon*s actual parentage) the most likely option was to become a knight and may be to be granted some land near the New Gift for the sake of re-populating the area under the government of a trustworthy and honorable local rulers. Historically the Starks main concern was keeping the Northern borders of the Realm safe and the Wall/ MW strong - keeping their swords honed and at the ready for the eventual threats beyond it.

[Dougsmum]

If only Ned had told Catelyn who Jon's mother was, she might have found him a little more likeable. It was kept a secret however, and it festered away at her pride. I can't blame her for feeling jealous and curious to the point that the sight of Jon made her upset at times. IIRC Catelyn was comparing Ned and her brother Ed's behaviour. She knows her brother has a dozen natural children, but she still cannot bring herself to like Jon. However I too think that The Blackfish was immediately suspicious at Jaime's suggestion. He might not have felt any suspicion had the suggestion come from someone else.

[Mad Monkey]

Bear in mind that none of those sleazy backroom machinations and shady political arm-twisting were Jon's ideas. He had no idea Samwell was going around doing all that stuff, he didn't even know his name had been put in for Lord Commander until just before he was elected.

I know that, and that's why I don't hold it against Jon. I even approve of the whole idea; Jon Snow is probably a better choice than Janos Slynt or whoever else was running. I'm just saying that Brynden might not respect Jon Snow more if he knew that he rose to power by what he might view as "dishonest" means; if Snow didn't even know how it happened, it might even make Jon Snow look dim-witted as well as corrupt to Brynden's eyes.

That said it would be cooler if he went to Sansa. It would screw with Littlefinger and give Sansa some help she definitely needs.

Wouldn't that be the coolest thing ever though?

[Blackfish Blues]

If only Ned had told Catelyn who Jon's mother was, she might have found him a little more likeable. It was kept a secret however, and it festered away at her pride. I can't blame her for feeling jealous and curious to the point that the sight of Jon made her upset at times. IIRC Catelyn was comparing Ned and her brother Ed's behaviour. She knows her brother has a dozen natural children, but she still cannot bring herself to like Jon. However I too think that The Blackfish was immediately suspicious at Jaime's suggestion. He might not have felt any suspicion had the suggestion come from someone else.

I believe Jon = Rhaegar + Lyanna (because it makes sense), and thus, if Ned swore to Lyanna NEVER to tell ANYONE who Jon was, he would never tell Catelyn either, even though it brought pain to both of them. I love the ASOIAF theme that ancient vows keep binding the characters and their children even years later.

And I'm writing this during the final of the Soccer World Cup. Is this love or what? :D

[A wilding]

From Jaime: "I will permit you to take the black. Ned Stark's bastard is the Lord Commander on the wall."

The Blackfish narrowed his eyes. "Did your father arrange for that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem she was right about them both. No, ser, I think not.

The Blackfish is not only talking to an enemy, he is talking to an utterly faithless and treacherous one (from his PoV). A shameless liar who will break his sworn word without a second thought the moment it suits him. Everything Jaime says to him is likely to be designed to manipulate him and may well be entirely false.

So when Jaime suggests taking the black, the Blackfish is hardly likely to fall in with the idea. And when Jaime points out that Jon is the new Lord Commander as an argument for doing so, it is likely to occur to the Blackfish that there is some hidden trap involved and that Jon may have come to some accommodation with the Lannisters. He is also busy expressing his contempt for Jaime, so even if he doesn't take the idea seriously, it is more mud to throw.

... Or it might just be misdirection to protect Jon as has been suggested above. The Blackfish is going to think the Lannisters are perfectly capable of attempting to assassinate him if they see him as a threat. (Indeed there is a Lannister plot to do so in progress while the conversation is going on.) I don't think we have seen enough of the Blackfish to judge whether this sort of quick witted verbal misdirection is out of character for him.

[Jon Blackfyre]

Although we haven't seen a lot of Brynden, I don't take him for a stupid or rash person. He is a smart, calculating individual. I think this is just a ploy to throw Jaime off. If Robb did name Jon his heir, then there is no way that Brynden would want to let on that Jon matters to him.

Whether Brynden agreed with Robb's decision or not doesn't matter, he wouldn't betray the heir to Winterfell to Jaime no matter what, so deception was the key. I personally don't think that Brynden liked the idea because of Cat's opinion, but that's just my opinion. It doesn't change the fact that Jon is not his enemy, and Jamie is. He doesn't seem like the type to me to betray a friend, or even a stranger, to an enemy.

[Scafloc]

Brynden may not know who Robb named as his heir.

When Robb asked his lords to sign his document (about who his heir is) Jason Mallister, Galbart Glover, Edmure Tully, Maege Mormont and the Greatjon are present. Assuming that they read the document they signed they know who Robb named as heir.

But Brynden was guarding Riverrun and was not able to sign. And it seems that Robb only decided who to name in this very chapter.

[Crow's Eye]

Brynden may not know who Robb named as his heir.

When Robb asked his lords to sign his document (about who his heir is) Jason Mallister, Galbart Glover, Edmure Tully, Maege Mormont and the Greatjon are present. Assuming that they read the document they signed they know who Robb named as heir.

But Brynden was guarding Riverrun and was not able to sign. And it seems that Robb only decided who to name in this very chapter.

First, I think Robb was considering naming Jon his heir well before the march from Riverrun to the Twins. And as the Blackfish was essentially his Hand, I can't imagine he wasn't privvy to those thoughts. Robb's chat with Catelyn was more for her own sake than an actual debate. But even assuming it was a rash decision, Robb could have easily sent a bird or a rider to Riverrun with the news offstage. Regardless, I think Brynden is well aware that Jon has been legitimized and is now the "rightful" King in the North.

Also, recall that even with Robb dead and all the remaining legitimate Stark heirs presumed dead, Riverrun is still flying the Direwolf throughout the siege. This tells me that Brynden's loyalty is to the King in the North, and he believes one exists.

So the last thing Brynden is going to do is give Jaime any indication that Jon is anything but universally loathed by the Starks. I'm also sure that a man as sharp as the Blackfish will be able to see where Catelyn's mistrust comes from (i.e., it has nothing to do with Jon himself, just his parentage).

My theory is that Brynden is now off to make sure that Jon knows he has been legitimized and is Robb's heir. He will head north through the Neck, and will end up meeting Howland Reed. Howland will fill him in on some other information about Jon, and they will BOTH end up traveling to the Wall to speak with Jon. That's my two cents, anyway.

[Blackfish Blues]

My theory is that Brynden is now off to make sure that Jon knows he has been legitimized and is Robb's heir. He will head north through the Neck, and will end up meeting Howland Reed. Howland will fill him in on some other information about Jon, and they will BOTH end up traveling to the Wall to speak with Jon. That's my two cents, anyway.

Brynden going North is one of my favourite theories, but I see it as more of a manoeuvre to rally support for the Starks, rather than a trip to the Wall. Another possibility, as many have already said, is Brynden going to the Eyrie and meeting Sansa, but I'd rather see something more of Lady Mormont and Galbart Glover, who, IIRC (I don't have the books right now), escaped the Red Wedding exactly because Robb sent them North to give Howland Reed a message about Robb's heir.

It makes sense that the Blackfish should try first to rejoin them. And how about Jason Mallister? IIRC he's still at large, even though he's lost Seagard and his son he is a prisoner of the Freys. I'd really love to see all these lords and knights get together, mourn their losses and consider their options. It would be a gloomy version of the "King in the North" scene. Meeting Howland Reed and learning the truth about the Tower of Joy would be the icing on the cake for me.

THEN they can decide to seek out Jon Snow, but I'm still perplexed about Robb naming him heir, or, should this be the case, about Jon accepting. What about "I will wear no crown and desire no glory... for all the nights to come"? And Jon is not even a lowly black brother, he's the Lord Commander of the Night Watch now. Of course Stannis and Melisandre might mess up the situation to a point that he has no other option.

[MALLISTER MISTAKE CORRECTED]

[Spaceman Hobbes]

That is the one downside to Jon being named Robb's heir, ten chapters of internal duty vs family monologue.

And then the ghost of Ygritte starts to haunts his dreams and it becomes duty vs love vs family.

And then I start rooting for the Others.

Edit: In all seriousness, IF Jon just accepted that he was Robb's Heir and IF Stannis is dead or accepts some sort of two king system, things could get very interesting. Of course the odds of that happening are about the same as the odds of Rickon killing Cersei.

[Yakman]

Brynden going North is one of my favourite theories, but I see it as more of a manoeuvre to rally support for the Starks, rather than a trip to the Wall. Another possibility, as many have already said, is Brynden going to the Eyrie and meeting Sansa, but I'd rather see something more of Lady Mormont and Galbart Glover, who, IIRC (I don't have the books right now), escaped the Red Wedding exactly because Robb sent them North to give Howland Reed a message about Robb's heir.

Brynden would not go to the Eyrie. He wouldn't trust LF not to turn him in to the Lannisters.

I think he's far more likely to take up with the non-Stoneheart half of Dondarrion's crew.

[Blackfish Blues]

I managed to check the books and realized I made a mistake in my post above. At the end of AFFC, Lord Jason Mallister is a prisoner of the Freys at Seagard with his son Patrek. Sorry!

Brynden would not go to the Eyrie. He wouldn't trust LF not to turn him in to the Lannisters.

I think he's far more likely to take up with the non-Stoneheart half of Dondarrion's crew.

Another intriguing theory, Yakman - but how would he deal with Stoneheart? With the revived corpse of his beloved niece? Actually I do believe he'll have to face that situation sooner or later. If so, we're headed for some depressing stuff.

[Spaceman Hobbes]

We don't have a POV for the BWB, and we aren't getting one in ADWD. Basically the only people whose perspective we can see this from would be Jaime or Brienne, which I guess could work, but would lack the impact of Arya encountering UnCat.

The Blackfish is loyal to the King of the North. He'll show up in Jon or Sansa's narrative.

[Lucky Shield]

That is the one downside to Jon being named Robb's heir, ten chapters of internal duty vs family monologue.

And then the ghost of Ygritte starts to haunts his dreams and it becomes duty vs love vs family.

And then I start rooting for the Others.

Edit: In all seriousness, IF Jon just accepted that he was Robb's Heir and IF Stannis is dead or accepts some sort of two king system, things could get very interesting. Of course the odds of that happening are about the same as the odds of Rickon killing Cersei.

Rickon killing cersei...? Shaggy taking revenge for his brothers..? I don't know it sounds pretty great to me? Even better would be for him to scar her face and let her live

[Namorath]

i felt it was because he trusted and respected Cat's opinion of Jon Snow so echoed it

he has never met jon so all he has to go off is Cat and there is no reason for Brynden to not believe Cat

[Spaceman Hobbes]

Rickon killing cersei...? Shaggy taking revenge for his brothers..? I don't know it sounds pretty great to me? Even better would be for him to scar her face and let her live

Low odds of happening though. It would be amazing, but it won't happen.

[TrueMetis]

i felt it was because he trusted and respected Cat's opinion of Jon Snow so echoed it

he has never met jon so all he has to go off is Cat and there is no reason for Brynden to not believe Cat

What about the word of Robb? I can't imagine Robb not talking about Jon at all. I can imagine him saying a couple of times something along the lines of I wish Jon was here though.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think it's very possible that Brynden Tully was just not of the mind to tip his hat to his enemies. But I also think it's possible that he doesn't really like Jon anyway. It is possible for even badass awesome old guys to have irrational antipathies, you know? There's no actual need for the two of them to ever be buddies, no need to ensure that the Blackfish likes all the right good guys nor that Jon Snow is liked by all the neat side characters.

[Alexia]

What about the word of Robb? I can't imagine Robb not talking about Jon at all. I can imagine him saying a couple of times something along the lines of I wish Jon was here though.

Robb has proven to be a very poor judge of character and I can't believe that has escaped the Blackfish.