Cersei and Rhaegar

[Ran]

Later she does not mind giving Jaime the Rock because she has a whole kingdom and the Rock is below her status.

No. At the time she says this, her father is Hand and basically acting as regent. She doesn't mind Jaime having the Rock because she doesn't mind Jaime having the Rock, basically. At this point in time, she does not seem to want it in any particular way. What she wants is Jaime and to be out from under her father's domineering gaze.

She could have tried to use Jaime's refusal to leave the Kingsguard to negotiate Tywin naming her his heir in return for her compliance with his demands. She didn't do that.

[feardeathbywater]

If Tywin was essentially regent of Westeros before his fateful resignation, what exactly was Aerys doing with his time? He had a nonexistent relationship with his wife and the only recreation we hear of his being involved in was the immolation of traitors (hardly a daily event even in Nero's time.) Oh, and putting wildfire into fruit-shaped containers.

[Lord Varys]

We don't know details about any conversations between Tywin and Cersei after he commanded her to remarry again. If there were any I do not doubt that Cersei started to make a point out of the fact that she and/or her children should become officially the heirs to Casterly Rock (after Tywin rejected Tyrion as his heir to Casterly Rock, and after Jaime put Tywin down this was the logical next step). The Lannister family dynamics somewhat show that it was pretty clear who became Lady of Casterly Rock after Tywin's death. This indicates to me somewhat that Kevan at least knew that Tywin did not intend the Rock to go to him. If Tywin had intended that, he would have talked about it, and tried to convince Cersei to give it to him.

And at the age 14/15 Cersei did not intend to leave the court, nor did she intend to escape her father. She wanted Jaime to be with her at court. The main point why I'm still dubious about this thing is that Cersei seems to be confident that she would be able to convince Aerys to accept Jaime's wish to become a member of the KG. This indicates that she was really believing she could manipulate/convince Aerys into doing something, and it also shows that she believed she knew what was going on at court. I doubt that Cersei had the opportunity to spend much time with Aerys, less only to meet with him in relative privacy, as the relationship between him and Tywin was not so well since he rejected Cersei as wife for Rhaegar.

Even if Cersei has figured out that Aerys might accept Jaime to hurt Tywin, this seems to be a strange way for to act, as she mostly thinks of her father as the man in charge. I doubt that she ever tried to accomplish something by thinking of her father being the weaker part in a confrontation. But her plan with Jaime only worked because Tywin did not stand up against Aerys.

I still doubt that Cersei would give that much about Jaime's presence in KL to convince him to become a KG. That is a calling for life. He would never marry, never have any children, never inherit his father's estate. And this just to be close to Cersei for the time she stays in KL? Come on, neither Cersei nor Jaime knew how long her father intended her to stay there. There would have been another opportunity for Jaime to stay at KL for a while. Something that would not require him to sign his life away and risk a rift between him, his father, and the King.

On Cersei's feelings towards her family:

Well, she feels some kind of affection for Jaime, but this is mostly, in my opinion, loving herself in the image of Jaime. He is her male side, and as she sees herself as the stronger person, she only sees Jaime as the part of herself which is male, and which should by rights be under her control. But this is my mind nothing I'd describe as love. Love really works differently, even among incestuous twins.

As for the other Lannisters of Casterly Rock, they are all emotionally dysfunctional. Tyrion searches for love, but does not find any - especially among his family, besides from Jaime, and Jaime mostly is kind to him due to his bad conscience. Tywin does not show affection to anyone at all. He may have shown affection towards Joanna, Kevan, and Genna once, but this was either decades ago, or happened between doors even closed to Tywin's children. Thus none of his children particularly liked or loved their father. They don't care about his death at all. The only person really caring is Kevan.

Cersei may have loved Joffrey is a weird way, but it was the twisted love of a twisted mother. She also loves Tommen in a similar way, but I'm really uncomfortable with this type of motherly love.

fbw,

Ran referred to Tywin's Handship under Joffrey/Tommen when he was describing him as de facto Regent. He never has that much power under Aerys - or if so, then only during the Defiance of Duskendale. But even then Rhaegar was around, too.

[Ran]

You just have a very different conception of the character than I do. The Cersei you paint might make sense, if it fit the character that we see in the series. It does not. Cersei was and is a very shortsighted thinker, her logic often overruled by her desires for immediate gratification. Worrying about what would happen when/if she ever left court and Jaime couldn't come along wasn't in her way of thinking.

And just on a meta level, if she had tried to wheedle the Rock out of her father, we would have been told this in ASoS or AFfC. As we aren't, I think it very unlikely that she at all operated in the way you suggest. If Cersei had been pushing to become heir, Kevan would have mentioned it to Jaime as a reason to get over himself and take what his father offered him... but he didn't, because she didn't.

She didn't want the Rock until it fell into her lap with her father's death. Before that, the Rock was Tywin's, now and forever, so far as she envisioned it. Her father was a constant in her life, eternal, and there was no point to spend time worrying about the time after he was gone.

[Alexia]

I am solidly in Ran's corner here. I don't think Cersei ever even considered the possibility that she could be in line for the Rock. 1) Its clear that Tywin continued to consider Jaime his heir. The appendix to AGOT lists him as such. 2) It seems to me that Tywin was overall dismissive of women. He told Cersei that she would be a queen when she was his darling daughter and groomed her to allow him to take power through her marriage. IMO, he did not encourage her to go after power in her own right or train her for such and that is the reason, in part, for her ham handed policies in KL.

I also don't think Cersei actively went after personal power - just resented the fact that she didn't have it (best demonstrated by her words to Sansa). For example, she's reactive to Ned (not proactive). She had plenty of opportunity to kill Robert and rule through her son, yet she doesn’t move until her life and the lives of her children were at stake. She had a husband with no interest in the rule and I firmly believe she could have gained the rule if she'd cared to (darling, I'll go to the small council meeting and fill you in tonight in bed, okay?) but instead she resented her lack of power without moving to gain it. When she got some, it was ridiculously easy for Tyrion to take it away from her. Even her twelve year old son was able to foil her and she easily yielded to him. Tywin announced his intention to marry her off, which he had no right to do (even Tyrion notes this), and she was going to let him!

In short, I think Cersei’s more complex than what’s been painted. She wants power yet she doesn’t move independently to get it and she doesn’t know what to do with it once she has it. In addition, she never once indicates a desire for the Rock.

Plus, Jaime never thinks that she plotted to take the Rock nor does he pay much attention to the consequences of his decision (beyond pausing briefly to consider them) and I believe the Lannister twins to be of about equal intelligence – with Jaime favored by a lack of madness and a new cautiousness caused by the trauma of losing his hand. :P

[Lord Varys]

Well, getting Jaime to join the KG was not actively plotting to take the Rock. It just removed Jaime from the line of succession. It is correct that Cersei never actively plotted to remove Tyrion or Tywin from power, but I really doubt that Cersei did not consider what it meant for Jaime if he joined the KG. Jaime was the heir to one of the greatest Lordships of the Realm. No one does not think about this once or twice before he throws it away. And certainly no one would not think about this if he asks somebody to do so. Cersei and Jaime are not smart, but they are not that dumb either.

Alexia, I doubt that your evaluation of Cersei's possibilities as Queen are correct. When Cersei makes herself Queen Regent after the death of Robert there is a certain degree of unrest when she announces that she is going to join Joffrey's Small Council. Before Cersei no one sat in her own name on the Council, not even Elaena Targaryen, a Royal Princess performed the duties of Master of Coin in the name of her husband. And remember, this was a court made up completely by Lannister cronies. If women were allowed on the Small Council then no one would have been irritated by Cersei's move. Most likely people expected the Queen Regent to behave like a woman and speak for her son, but leave the Council meetings and the actual ruling to the men at court, especially to the new Hand. Only the Hand, not the Regent was allowed to speak with the King's voice and sit on the Iron Throne in his absence. And the Hand could not be female. That women are not allowed on the Small Council can also be seen by the fact that Taena Marryweather does get no official position. Cersei considers it, but realizes she can make her anything.

So whereas I believe that Cersei could have had much more control over Robert if she had been nicer to him, I don't see her ending up stepping in for him during the Council meetings. If she could have been present there (not as representative of her husband, but merely as visitor), she would have done so, but not once during Ned's Handship she dares to enter the room, despite the fact that Robert is absent.

[winterqueen]

So whereas I believe that Cersei could have had much more control over Robert if she had been nicer to him, I don't see her ending up stepping in for him during the Council meetings. If she could have been present there (not as representative of her husband, but merely as visitor), she would have done so, but not once during Ned's Handship she dares to enter the room, despite the fact that Robert is absent.

I agree with you on the above, Lord Varys. I don't believe Robert would have allowed Cersei in the small council meetings for any reason. Also, we have to remember the council wasn't all Lannister cronies before Ned was made the Hand. In the Pre-AGOT small council, Cersei could have cowed Grand Maester Pycelle in to accepting her. But Jon Arryn, Varys, Stannis, Renley and Ser Barristan- NO Way. Cersei wouldn't have dared to walk through the door Pre-AGOT or AGOT. When Cersei does gain control in ACOK, Stannis, Renley, Ser Barristan and the previous hands Stark and Arryn are all gone. Varys and Littlefinger really have no choice but to accept her.

[Alexia]

She would not have gone into the small council in her own name - but in her husband's name. For a competent woman who wants to take power, can anyone doubt that she would be able to take power? For example, Daenerys would certainly attend her small council meetings.

Cersei's biggest problem would not have been Robert, IMO. Robert didn't care who ruled as long as it wasn't him and what he wanted to have happen, happened. I think her most significant problem would have come from Jon Arryn and Stannis Baratheon - both of whom wanted the rule and to run the country. Actually, a power struggle between the three would have been quite entertaining. Jon is the only one who could really stop her, I think, if Stannis declared his opposition to Cersei joining the council Robert would have named her to it the same day.

Cersei's possibilities as Robert's wife are, IMO, infinite. He's incompetent, uninterested in doing his job, and during his reign every kind of knave crawled out of the woodwork to take power. While he's a pig, he never struck me as being particularly sexist for his world. He's no Balon Greyjoy but neither is he Tywin Lannister or Walder Frey. Cersei could have played him like a fiddle if she had any interpersonal skills whatsoever.

While I wasn't suggesting that Cersei be named Hand - could you provide a quote that expressly indicates that the Hand cannot be female? I agree that there's probably never been a woman serving in that role previously but that doesn't mean a woman can't eventually be named to that role. After all, a woman has never ruled as queen before and look at Cersei and Daenerys.

If she could have been present there (not as representative of her husband, but merely as visitor), she would have done so, but not once during Ned's Handship she dares to enter the room, despite the fact that Robert is absent.

I don't know if the sessions are open to visitors, but it is my opinion that Cersei is simply too short-sighted and irrational to consider the possibility of seizing power by going to the meetings, playing nice with the lords in attendance, and building herself her own base of support. She doesn't see the subtle path to power - she only sees poison, boars, and Ilyn Payne.

And certainly no one would not think about this if he asks somebody to do so. Cersei and Jaime are not smart, but they are not that dumb either.

They both thought about it and with the short-sighted foolishness unique to 15 year olds, they decided it wasn't that important. ;)

[Lord Varys]

Well, the royal court's attitude towards women in power strikes me as similar to the late Roman Republic, or well, medieval times where women were not allowed to fulfill any official position beside being Mother Abbess.

All power Cersei could acquire was through ruling the men in power, not gathering power herself in her own name. I'd compare her in this (and in her personality and political shortsightedness to Atia from Rome). And she was not bad in this. She influenced Robert's decision pretty much (making him name Jaime Warden of the East, offering Robert Arryn as ward to Tywin Lannister), but the wife of the King simply was not able to make a bid for the Iron Throne, or even appear that she might intend to such a thing. Cersei Lannister is not Rhaenyra Targaryen. No one ever tried to win her favor because she is the chosen heir of her father, the King of Westeros.

If Cersei had really make Robert love her, she might have been able to build a real base of power, especially if the court had started to realize that the woman would get her way when she spoke to the King. So the dynamics between Emperor Claudius and Messalina could have been established between Robert and Cersei. But even this would mean only wielding power behind and beside the throne. No sitting on the Iron Throne.

Since the Dance of Dragons the attitude towards women grew worse. Look what the Targaryens did to Daena and Rhaena. The first was a strong woman, but she was locked up in the Maidenvault and died young (we don't know if of natural causes), and Rhaena they send to the Faith. Even Elaena was merely a political tool which was married three times, and unable to wield any power in her own name. And between Aelinor Targaryen (Aerys' I sister-wife) and Rhaella we don't even know the names of the queens of Westeros. This is not a sign that they did wield any particular power, or were of importance during the reign of their husbands. This is somewhat irritating as one should expect that the Targaryen women, who descended mostly from the same Kings as their husband, were treated better, as they all had claims to the Iron Throne as well.

Before the Dance of Dragons things were different. Visenya and Rhaenys were Aegon's co-rulers, and Alysanne Targaryen ruled together with Jaehaerys I. During these times Targaryen women really wielded power.

That women cannot become Hand of the King is stated in AFfC. Remember, Cersei makes Orton Merryweather Hand because she cannot appoint Taena to this office. That women are not allowed to become members of the Small Council I deduce from the fact that there is muttering among the Lannister cronies when she announces that she would be part of the Small Council as Queen Regent, and from the fact that Elaena Targaryen was not named Master of Coin. And if it would have been appropriate, Cersei would have appointed Taena at least to the Council. Cersei Lannister has broken with a great many traditions during her Regency (firing KG members, appointing non-knights to the KG), she would have broken this tradition as well, had she believed she would survive it politically.

Daenerys case is completely different from Cersei's. She is - at least in her own mind, and in the opinion of the people surrounding her - as the last Targaryen alive the heir to her father, and thus the Ruling Queen of Westeros. Of course would she be present during her own council meeting. She would preside over them from the seat of the Queen. But Cersei is unable to take the last attributes of power for herself, because she has no claim to these.

There was a massive power block opposing the Lannister faction at court. Not only Stannis, but Renly as well, who really despised Cersei and his little nephew. Jon Arryn actually was more of a Lannister friend, I imagine, as he brokered the marriage deal in the first place, and likely only grew suspicious when Stannis came to him with his suspicions about the children.

And Robert no sexist? The way he treated/spoke about he women he fathered children with? But I think you don't need to be particularly sexist to keep your queen out of any real power. That is the consensus in Westeros. Even Stannis allows Selyse to be present once in a while, but certainly not when he is conferring with his lords or council. And his overly positive attitude to Melisandre later on is met with opposition among his Lords during ACoK.

[Cendres]

And Robert no sexist? The way he treated/spoke about he women he fathered children with? But I think you don't need to be particularly sexist to keep your queen out of any real power. That is the consensus in Westeros.

I agree mostly with that, Robert is a traditionnal man of Westeros, the way he thinks of women is the common one. The only way Cersei could have gained power was to have the king's ear.

Since the Dance of Dragons the attitude towards women grew worse. Look what the Targaryens did to Daena and Rhaena. The first was a strong woman, but she was locked up in the Maidenvault and died young (we don't know if of natural causes), and Rhaena they send to the Faith. Even Elaena was merely a political tool which was married three times, and unable to wield any power in her own name.

I agree, but Rhaena was merely inspired by her brother Baelor, no one forced her it was Naerys who was forced to stay queen

although she wanted to become septa. Elaena was not only a political tool, she had a lover (her cousin a Velaryon) with who she had a bastard son and daughter, she married three times but two for duty, one for passion, but I agree that before the Dance she would maybe have been Master of Coins (we don't know if any previous woman had an official title in her own name).

[Alexia]

Lord Varys,

I didn't say Robert was no sexist - I said he was not particularly sexist by the standards of his world. Sexism is pretty well ingrained in the culture - however, the responsibilities given women vary between men. Lord Stark left his wife as Regent for the North. Lord Hoster trained his daughter as his heir and favored her even after his son was born. Lord Lannister is said to have been ruled in all things by his wife. Balon Greyjoy rejects his male heir as unsatisfactory and passes him over in favor of his daughter. However, none of these men are supporting suffrage! And I did note that he was a pig...as you point out regarding his treatment of his children's mothers. ;)

Melisandre is a good example. There was a lot of muttering (as there would have been if Cersei took a more visible position at court) but in the end, she was one of Stannis' most powerful advisors. Stannis has no respect or liking for Selyse and that is why she has no power. I can counter the example of Selyse with the example of Catelyn Stark, who helped her husband rule the North and was left as Regent when he went south.

Finally, I'm not too familiar with all the Targaryen history so I can't comment on specific cases, but a very important note: Robert is not a Targaryen! This is a time of flux and changes that brought a non-Targaryen to the throne. The real question is: what kind of power did the Baratheon women wield? This would give a better sense of whether or not Robert would be willing to allow Cersei to wield some power - and most of the other High Lords were also not Targaryens and they allowed their daughters to inherit after their sons. IMO, Cersei was the wrong woman at exactly the right time - and even so, she has wielded an unprecedented amount of political power as queen, if I'm not mistaken.

Nobody is suggesting that Cersei wield power in her own name. Of course she would only wield it through her husband, and later her sons. As for her not appointing Taena because she didn't believe she could politically survive it - come on! When did the possibility of not surviving politically ever enter Cersei's head?

[Lord Varys]

Alexia,

do we have confirmation on Hoster training Catelyn to be his successor? I never saw it that way, especially Hoster telling her 'Wait for me, Cat' on a regular basis suggested to me exactly the opposite. Hoster dearly loved his firstborn daughter, but if he would really have prepared her to succeed him, she would not have needed to wait for him. She would have gone with him, if his travels were that important. Female heirs likely only were excluded from the battlefields. And the only war Hoster participated before the War of the Usurper was the War of the Ninepenny Kings, and this war was either before Catelyn was born, or during her infancy (at least I assume that, as it is confirmed that it took place during Egg's reign).

Edmure is younger than Cat and Lysa, but he is not that much younger. He is about Littlefinger's age, and he is five years younger than Catelyn. I don't think that any Lord would already start to prepare his daughter to be his heir if she was only five (or six or seven) years old while he was still married, and had every chance to father a son.

On Melisandre, well, I'm not sure if she is powerful in the 'normal' political sense of the word. Stannis gives her what she wants in exchange for her help (i.e. is giving her the possibility to enforce her religious belief on his subjects), but she seems to wield less or no influence on what Stannis' true goal is, or how he deals with his Lords etc.

The same I assume was true for Joanna Lannister. She did not 'rule' Tywin in every sense, but she got her way when she really cared about something. So it really seems to be that she already had arranged matches for her children despite the fact that Tywin had completely different plans.

We don't know anything about Baratheon women, but I don't think that it would be different if knew any. The Andal custom seems to be everywhere the same, so only in Dorne and the North things are different. Meaning that women have stronger positions in Dorne, and weaker positions in the North. GRRM confirmed that there was never a Queen in the North or Ruling Lady of Winterfell. Catelyn understands that women have little or no power in the North. That is why she does not destroy Robb 'playing Lord' after Ned's capture. She knows that no Lord Stark can survive the appearance of being ruled by his mother. Ned trusted Catelyn, but I do not doubt that Ned would have appointed Robb his castellan as soon as he would have come of age. I'm pretty sure that Catelyn Stark would never have been able to rule the North the way Lysa started to rule the Vale after Jon's death. The Andals know and accept these things (apparently even if the women in question are utterly incapable, although Lysa could pull this thing off, because half the Vale wanted to marry her, and then take the power away from her), but in the North I'm sure that some bannerman of House Stark would have successfully taken away power from Catelyn.

The Targaryen attitude towards women did not change even after their Dornish marriages, and as it was not that different from normal Andal custom - the law that no woman could inherit the Iron Throne if there were still male relatives around might be valid for all Kings, not just the Targaryens. And Robert did not establish a completely new dynasty. He was related to the old dynasty, and he continued to rule from their castle and their throne. He did not change anything important. And we don't know if female Baratheons or Ladies of Storm's End (who likely were seldom Baratheons by birth) were particularly powerful.

Anyway, to meet a female version of Robert or Stannis would be really interesting, as these women could easily be even more willful than the likes of Asha. Would be great if there were a Ruling Lady of Storm's End during one of the D&E stories.

[fionwe1987]

Meaning that women have stronger positions in Dorne, and weaker positions in the North.

Where is it stated that the women of the North have weaker positions? Given what little we know about the she-wolves of Winterfell, and how Ned left Catelyn in charge, I would say this isnt true at all. The absence of a Queen in the North and ruling lady of Winterfell could simply be because there may always have been a son to take over. After all, we're told Sansa is the heir many times, and no one seems to think this would mean less power for her because she was from the North.

[Liadin]

Hmm, I agree with Alexia that Cersei could have taken a lot of power through Robert if she'd been subtle and far-sighted about it, her problem being that she is neither. She would have had to start with a lot of day-to-day stuff that isn't vitally important to her, getting Robert and his council used to her doing these things, and that would have been a lot of work with only a long-term reward. She could have been Lady Olenna on a larger scale if she'd had Olenna's wits.

But it doesn't seem to me that she lacks interpersonal skills so much as judgment; she can charm, she just has trouble realizing when she needs to hide her true feelings and do so.

[Daena the Defiant]

Where is it stated that the women of the North have weaker positions? Given what little we know about the she-wolves of Winterfell, and how Ned left Catelyn in charge, I would say this isnt true at all. The absence of a Queen in the North and ruling lady of Winterfell could simply be because there may always have been a son to take over. After all, we're told Sansa is the heir many times, and no one seems to think this would mean less power for her because she was from the North.

Plus, in the aftermath of the war, a good many of the Northern houses have become ruled by women, or at least the daughters/sisters were recognized as the legal claimants.

And then you have Lady Maege :)

[Daena the Defiant]

Alexia,

do we have confirmation on Hoster training Catelyn to be his successor? I never saw it that way, especially Hoster telling her 'Wait for me, Cat' on a regular basis suggested to me exactly the opposite. Hoster dearly loved his firstborn daughter, but if he would really have prepared her to succeed him, she would not have needed to wait for him.

Is it "wait for me Cat," or "watch for me Cat," that are you thinking of?

I did a quick perusal of the books at hand, I know there's more, but here's a significant reference:

"Our duty," Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard.

I have always done my duty

, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Hoster until Edmure was born."

-

Clash of Kings

, p. 476 (my large trade paperback copy).

There is a not insignifigant age gap between Edmure and Catelyn; Lady Minisa tried and failed to produce a male heir for some time; until Edmure was born, it would have seemed like Catelyn was the best Hoster was going to do.

Anyway, to meet a female version of Robert or Stannis would be really interesting, as these women could easily be even more willful than the likes of Asha. Would be great if there were a Ruling Lady of Storm's End during one of the D&E stories.

I think that Mya Stone was supposed to be our hint of what a female Baratheon is like - tall, lusty, adventurous, slightly irresponsible and unable to be realistic ;)

[Daena the Defiant]

She would not have gone into the small council in her own name - but in her husband's name. For a competent woman who wants to take power, can anyone doubt that she would be able to take power? For example, Daenerys would certainly attend her small council meetings.

Didn't Elaena (Rhaena?) pretty much as act as the Lord of Coin (Excheqer-type function, I presume) acting through her husband?

While I wasn't suggesting that Cersei be named Hand - could you provide a quote that expressly indicates that the Hand cannot be female? I agree that there's probably never been a woman serving in that role previously but that doesn't mean a woman can't eventually be named to that role. After all, a woman has never ruled as queen before and look at Cersei and Daenerys.

Here's a fun question - yes, there has never been a ruling queen of the Seven Kingdoms (the empire forged by Aegon I) - but what about the component kingdoms, pre-Targaryen Conquest? Was there ever a Queen of the West, Queen... I dunno, Tyanna Lannister? A Queen Floresse of House Gardener, Queen of the Reach? Queen Avianna of Vale and Rack, the Falcon Queen? That sort of thing?

[fionwe1987]

I did a quick perusal of the books at hand, I know there's more, but here's a significant reference:

"Our duty," Catelyn's face was drawn as she started across the yard.

I have always done my duty

, she thought. Perhaps that was why her lord father had always cherished her best of all his children. Her two older brothers had both died in infancy, so she had been son as well as daughter to Hoster until Edmure was born."

-

Clash of Kings

, p. 476 (my large trade paperback copy).

What this quote shows is that even though Edmure is, at most, six years younger than Catelyn, the fact that her elder brothers died in infancy means that till Edmure grew up to be 5 or so, Hoster would have concentrated his efforts on Catelyn. Which means Cat lived at least 10 years of her life where she was treated as the heir, and for five of those, there wasn't even a hope of someone else taking her place.

Interesting question: Had there been no Edmure, and Cat ended up as heir, would she have been offered to Brandon? To a younger son of one of the great Houses... that, I can see. I doubt though, that the Brandon-Cat match would have been made if she was heir. Her job would be to rule the Riuverlands and produce the heir to Riverrun, not have kids who'd be lords of other lands.

As for what Cersei could have done... take Cat as an example again. She was, along with Brynden, one of the two most critical advisers of her son. She personally went south to treat with Renly and Stannis, and almost succeeded in getting the North and the Riverlands to offer a peace to Lord Tywin. And, it is to be noted that she did not have a more dramatic presence in this alliance because she chose to let her son take the lead. Had she wished to, I'm sure she could have used her position (save Cersei and Lysa, there was no other woman in the land in her position) to essentially lead the North and the Riverlands. Had Cersei worked to gain the respect of Robert's councilors (and Robert himself), she'd have been able to be de facto leader as well. That she did not is her own fault. Perhaps this was one of the reasons Tywin refused to let her do anything more important than organize a wedding (and look how that went).

[Daena the Defiant]

What this quote shows is that even though Edmure is, at most, six years younger than Catelyn, the fact that her elder brothers died in infancy means that till Edmure grew up to be 5 or so, Hoster would have concentrated his efforts on Catelyn. Which means Cat lived at least 10 years of her life where she was treated as the heir, and for five of those, there wasn't even a hope of someone else taking her place.

Interesting question: Had there been no Edmure, and Cat ended up as heir, would she have been offered to Brandon? To a younger son of one of the great Houses... that, I can see.

The Heiress to Riverrun to the Heir of Winterfell would probably not have been arranged, or allowed by the Iron Throne - too much consolidated power.

What you might see is Heir of the North to second daughter (Brandon to Lysa) and Heiress of the Riverlands to second son (Catelyn to Ned)....

Heh.

[VorianGR]

The Heiress to Riverrun to the Heir of Winterfell would probably not have been arranged, or allowed by the Iron Throne - too much consolidated power.

What you might see is Heir of the North to second daughter (Brandon to Lysa)

Heh.

Poor, poor Brandon....he suffers even in the alternate realities.