A Thread for Small Questions IV

[Mad Monkey]

Where did you get that Harlan Grandison was Lord Grandison's father?

I was trying to answer the question in a tongue-in-cheek, obituary style -- I know it doesn't actually make sense that Harlan Grandison, a Kingsguard, would have children. I have no idea how the two men are related, but I was telling the truth about how Jaime came to the Kingsguard. The bit that I quoted was from the actual book.

[jurble]

If Sam is an homage to Samwise Gamgee, then Sam is to Jon as Sam is to Frodo. Therefore, Jon is Frodo.

But if Jon is Frodo, what is the ring?

Also:

Also Daenerys is Aragorn. Marwyn is Gandalf. Strong Belwas is Gimli, and, uh, Tyrion is Legolas?

[Lord Mord]

Is anyone else struck by how small the Stormlands seem to be? And a great part of that land is taken up by the Kingswood, which, I presume, nobody would be allowed to touch. Is Baratheon supposed to be one of the poorer houses, like Stark?

[jurble]

Let's say that Winterfell's burning did wake a sleeping dragon (winged snake, Osha's "wake a dragon" ((foreshadowing))). What role exactly would that dragon play in the story? Dany has her 3 dragons.

Also, what ever happened to Stonesnake? COULD HE BE COLDHANDS!?

Also, is Lord Estermont, Stannis' grandfather still alive?

[Ran]

The Stormlands also includes the Dornish Marches, but yes, it's a smaller region than most.

Lord Estermont is alive as of the end of AFfC, when Sylva Santagar is sent away to become his bride.

[ekafeman]

Is anyone else struck by how small the Stormlands seem to be? And a great part of that land is taken up by the Kingswood, which, I presume, nobody would be allowed to touch. Is Baratheon supposed to be one of the poorer houses, like Stark?

On this line of thought, does anyone know exactly how the kingdoms stack up against one another in terms of wealth, power and military? I believe the Westerlands are the richest and the Reach can raise the largest military but I'm curious about the rest. The Iron Islands and Dorne are supposed to be poor but are they as poor as each other or is one significantly poorer?

[Ran]

Someone has already posted a thread on this topic, here. It's pretty detailed and I largely agree with it in broadline. Wealth wise, it's the Lannisters followed by the Tyrells, martial strength-wise it's vice versa.

[Lord Mord]

Ran,

Okay, that's fair enough, but the thread title there was "Military Strength", and I couldn't care less about relative military might, at least not right now. Also, I'm more interested in the whole roster, rather than just the top two. If the linked thread also talks about wealth, I'll have to check it out. Thanks.

[Ran]

I was responding to ekafeman's query, actually.

[Ser Greguh]

My rank would be:

Wealth

The Westerlands

The Reach

The Stormlands

The Riverlands

The Vale

Dorne

The North

Military Might

The Reach

The Westerlands

The North

The Riverlands

The Stormlands

The Vale

Dorne

I base this on absolutely nothing substantial.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

For wealth, I'd say

1. Westerlands

2. Reach

3. King's Lands (benefits from taxes from the whole realm, probably, definitely in customs and tariffs and such)

4. Vale (having a city helps)

5. Riverlands fairly fertile in a much larger area than the Vale)

6. North (has a city, but generally poorer and harsher geography)

7. Stormlands

8. Dorne (trade with Free Cities, but a lot of unproductive land)

9. Iron Isles.

That's fairly arbitrary around the middle, much like the military strength list since the middle of the pack is pretty title clumped, with the extremities more distant. The Lannisters are very rich indeed, and the Ironborn are very poor. The dismal feast at Pyke in aCoK was one of the poorest showings of the series. In fact, feasts and displays of jewelery may be a pretty good basis for judging. The Martells seemed to flash their gold around a bit, and talk about what sort of crown to make Myrcella, while the Ironborn crown with freaking driftwood.

[jurble]

I dunno, I imagine Dorne as being fairly wealthy due to trade.

[Mad Monkey]

I agree with the point that the middle is kind of murky and hard to assess. Can anyone really be sure that the Vale lands are poorer or richer than the Riverlands?

[Ran]

Doran himself says that Dorne is a poor nation. What "poor" means is unclear when compared to, say, the Stormlands, and I agree with OiL that it's probably wealthier than the Iron Islands per capita. But still. Poor.

[Guest Other-in-Law]

I agree with the point that the middle is kind of murky and hard to assess. Can anyone really be sure that the Vale lands are poorer or richer than the Riverlands?

Gulltown boosts the Vale up substantially; the best the Riverlands has for a port is Maidenpool. And the Vale of Arryn itself is said to be as fertile agriculturally as the Reach...but the Vale itself is not really very big. The Fingers are bleak and desolate and the mountains (which take up the biggest single region of the greater Vale) are worse.

Dorne is mostly desert. There's better areas where they grow grapes and oranges and lemons, to be sure, but the whole middle of the peninsula is effectively a wasteland. And mountains there, too, which probably aren't very productive. The overseas trade hepls, but it seems to be almost entirely centered at the small Planky Town. The Ironborn comment on how inhospitable the rocky, barren Dornish coast is, with no place to land and take on supplies. So I'd say they're definitely among the poorer houses. Nowhere near the rock bottom of the Iron Isles, though.

[Lord Mord]

I posted this in the military might section, but I'll post it here now, with some changes.

1. Casterly Rock (clearly)

2. Highgarden (massive tracts of very fertile land and the biggest city in Westeros)

3. King's Landing (fertile coastline all surrounding the capital)

4. Riverrun (more great big tracts of fertile land, and a lot of rivers, which probably means towns)

5. The Eyrie (mostly rocks, though the Vale is fertile and has at least one major port)

6. Storm's End (large swaths eaten up with rocks and the Kingswood)

7. Sunspear (I would have thought the southern ports would help, but if Doran says "poor", I believe him)

8. Winterfell (lots of swamps, rocks, and permafrost)

9. Dragonstone (lots of trade, but tiny, tiny rocks)

10. Pyke (not only tiny rocks, but in any case they shun gold)

[jurble]

Do we have any characters that truly fit "reborn in the sea"? I've heard people put forth Dany and Davos, but neither of them really seem too "reborn" for me, unless Dany's going from cowering to Viserys to being a more mature character counts, but I don't think it does, that's just character development! It'd be like saying Jaime was reborn when his hand was cut-off.

I mean really, only one of the Ironborn, or Patchface fit imo.

[Ran]

If they are "Azor Ahai reborn", then being born on Dragonstone (or, I suppose, having a life-changing experience after nearly drowning) does seem like it'd count in a metaphorical way. Prophecy is not literal.

[mikeym]

hold on. What's not being reborn about Davos? He drowns at the black water and for all he can remember should be dead, so when the sea (or who / what ever) pushes him onto that spire he is brought literally back to life - reborn from the sea. The smoke is from the burning wildfire.

I consider this to be the best (and probably only) claim to his being Azor Ahai (as much as I want it).

Dany's "rebirth" is much more metaphorical (mostly why I think it's a red herring). The idea is that the "sea" is the Dothraki Sea and the rebirth is among the smoke and the flames in Khal Drogo's pyre. The salt is supposed to be her tears. :rolleyes:

[Ran]

The red waste is not the Dothraki Sea, though. It's explicitly stated in ACoK.