Multiculturalism has failed.

[Tempra]

No, not really. Both Francophones and First Nations have issues, but they aren't related to multiculturalism.

I don't really want to make this a thread about Canada, but assimilation has long been a fear of both francophones and the First Nations.

OTTAWA — Ontario’s 500,000 francophones are under constant threat of assimilation in an overwhelmingly English province, says Francophone Affairs Minister Madeleine Meilleur.

“One of my biggest challenges is the assimilation of francophones in Ontario and one of the reasons is lack of services. If you live in a town or village where there is no French school and your kids have to go to an English school, that is assimilation,” said Meilleur, who is also the provincial minister of community and social services.

“The threat of assimilation is not in Ottawa. It is in western and northern communities — Toronto, Hamilton, Windsor, Sarnia.”

Meilleur added her voice to the growing debate on the future of the French minority in Canada in an an interview with the Ottawa Citizen last week. She said that lack of appropriate services, particularly schools, is turning the francophone minority in many Ontario communities into something of an endangered species.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6ca121cb-2332-4b10-a451-fad22576e6c1&k=80049

[Lord Mord]

1) No, I don't find the use of the food metaphor odd, unfortunately. It's our habit to commodotize people -- and, after all, what do the variety of ethnicities provide which we actually value over the long-term as their major contribution, but food? Forget their languages and faiths and traditions and most uniquely their perspectives. These we can lose without damage to ourselves, so why include such subtleties in our depictions? Food is simpler and more appropriate to the purpose we perceive they best serve.

2) I'm not a fan of multiculturalism per se; I just think it's a tragedy to lose the potential for what other, especially more obscure cultures, might teach us about ourselves -- the different outlooks on what life is which they might share. Assimilation does technically work both ways, but the mere existence of persistent variety is I think what we need most; whether or not that is best achieved by passing multiculturalist legislation is still up in the air.

[Aemon Stark]

I don't really want to make this a thread about Canada, but assimilation has long been a fear of both francophones and the First Nations.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazette/news/story.html?id=6ca121cb-2332-4b10-a451-fad22576e6c1&k=80049

Is there some particular reason why you dug up an article from January 2008? In any case, neither francophones nor aboriginals fall under the umbrella of multiculturalism. Official language communities enjoy constitutional protection not available to anyone else, i.e. the right to be educated in their maternal language.

[DNking]

I agree with Lord Caspen (but the food metaphor was weird :) )

Anyway i think there's another problem going on and it's the fact citizens start to feel unsafe in their country.

I went down to Eilat here awhile ago (southern Israel for you international people) and I see tons of black Sudanese people there that make most of Eilat's population. I wouldn't even think about living there it just... It doesn't seem as to be my country when most of the people there find it hard even to speak Hebrew, going around them make me feel unsafe.

I assume there's the same problem in some places in Europe today and Germany does seem to have one of the highest Muslim percentage in Europe.

[Artas]

I assume there's the same problem in some places in Europe today and Germany does seem to have one of the highest Muslim percentage in Europe

Not really. Belgium, Austria, the Netherlands and especially France have a higher percentage of muslims than Germany. See Wikipedia for statistics.

As for Merkel's somewhat surprising comment, anti-muslim sentiments have steadily been gaining ground in the politics of the countries surrounding Germany (rightwing populist parties supporting the governments of Denmark and the Netherlands, "Flemish Interest" in Belgium, Le Pen in France, the minaret referendum in Switzerland) and now things are finally starting to rumble in Germany as well.

Thilo Sarrazin's book "Deutschland schafft sich ab" (Germany abolishes itself) is a huge bestseller. I've seen rows and rows of it in the bookstores in the past weeks. Merkel has called it "unhelpful", but its popularity is a sure indication that something is brewing. Rene Stadtkewitz is setting up an anti-islam party modelled after the "Freedom Party" of Geert Wilders and invited the Great Blond Leader to give a rousing speech in Berlin.

Until a few months ago, Germany reminded me a lot of the Netherlands in the nineties: many regular joes (or hanses) have growing concerns about immigration and multiculturalism, but political correctness mostly prevented their discussion in national politics. This being Germany, the issue is more sensitive than in many other European countries, but recently, the dissenting voices have become too loud to ignore.

Merkel, seeing the rise of the tide both abroad and indoors, is probably trying to prevent anti-islam sentiments from getting out of hand. I wonder if this is the right way to go about it.

[DNking]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islam_in_Europe-2.png

Ah true i heard Germany has like 10% somewhere, anyway France and Netherlands seem to have a lot more but still Germany is above average in Europe.

That small dot on the Baltic coast seems interesting.

[Tuoni]

That small dot is Kaliningrad, which is Russian territory. Therefore, the Russian statistics apply also there, although most Russian Muslims probably live in southern Russia.

[Lummel]

How could anybody have objectively said that multiculturalism had succeeded?

This is a bit of internal politicing by Merkel trying to associate the CDU with popular skittishness over the muslim population. I think Artas being reminded of Holland in the 90s when he sees what is happening in Germany has put his finger on a European trend, there's the same kind of nervousness in the UK as well with both the Conservative and Labour parties coming out against unrestricted immigration.

But on a practical note what is Merkal going to do - introduce compulsory German language lessions? Insist on job candidates passing a German language proficiency test before they can be employed? Go Icelandic and ban names that don't reflect Germany's cultural heritage?

[Onion Knight]

I went down to Eilat here awhile ago (southern Israel for you international people) and I see tons of black Sudanese people there that make most of Eilat's population. I wouldn't even think about living there it just... It doesn't seem as to be my country when most of the people there find it hard even to speak Hebrew, going around them make me feel unsafe.

Most of the population of Eilat is Sudanese? Don't you think you exaggerate a bit?

[Horza]

Multiculturalism has failed to provide me with clean pairs of pants no matter how messy my wardrobe. I demand a UN investigation and sanctions.

[DNking]

Most of the population of Eilat is Sudanese? Don't you think you exaggerate a bit?

Nope and i don't know were you come from but here in Israel its a known fact and even makes it to the news here and there.

Note they don't live around in the hotel rich areas were all the tourists are, they kinda more stick together in the poor neighborhoods. I have some friends living in Eilat and I didn't believe them until i saw it.

[Tempra]

Is there some particular reason why you dug up an article from January 2008? In any case, neither francophones nor aboriginals fall under the umbrella of multiculturalism. Official language communities enjoy constitutional protection not available to anyone else, i.e. the right to be educated in their maternal language.

Seriously? "Dug up" an article from 2008? Anyways, i'm talking about assimilation and how both the US and Canada have benefited from assimilation. I don't think you can deny that there was a policy of assimilation targeting the First Nations as Canada apologized for their assimilation practices. European immigrants were assimilated in much the same way that European immigrants in America were assimilated into the culture. Francophones have been able to avoid outright assimilation because their relative size and influence throughout Canadian history, but there is no doubt that they have feared assimilation for a long time.

[MinDonner]

So, you might say that assimilation has also failed...?

Both policies have pros, both have cons. Most countries seem to muddle along OK by using a mixture of both. :dunno:

[Horza]

Definition of both terms would go in handy here.

I normally take multicultural societies to mean those in which groups with different ethnic backgrounds are given/allowed 'space' to maintain various aspects of their culture and everyday use of their own language on the basis that they also learn the language of their adopted country (as best they can) and their cultural practices don't break the law. Examples of this are Australia and Canada etc.

Assimilationist societies by contrast have a set of national characteristics that immigrants are required to meet, beyond which further expression of their culture and language are frowned upon and to various extents curtailed. France I'd argue fits this criteria via it's language and naming policies and official non-recognition of ethnic backgrounds for census purposes and the like.

But like Min said it's a spectrum and these policies aren't mutually exclusive. Merkel's lack of clarity as to why or how multiculturalism has 'completely failed' in Germany for mine is exercise in empty rhetoric. It's not much of a debate when you won't even outline a case.

[Tempra]

So, you might say that assimilation has also failed...?

Both policies have pros, both have cons. Most countries seem to muddle along OK by using a mixture of both. :dunno:

No, not failed. I know of no society that advocates complete assimilation, which may very well be impossible short of going the route of Nazi Germany and trying to achieve a pure race. Nor do I know of any society that advocates a complete multicultural society, because such a society would lack the adhesion to be a country. Within that gray area, there is huge variations of whether you favor multiculturalism or assimilation. The french, for example, have always had a strong assimilationist policy; Sweden multicultural (since the 70s).

[Ser_not_appearing_yet]

It fails because 'different' people find it very hard to coexist. The more dramatic those differences, the more likely there is to be conflict.

The point of multi-culturalism was to have different cultures coexisting side by side, but it doesn't really work.

[Guest Raidne]

I didn't know anyone claimed to invent "multiculturalism." Is that even remotely true?

And I thought "assimilation" fell out of favor here after we tried to forcibly assimilate the Native Americans, removed children from parents, etc.

I hear from foreign languages spoken here than anywhere else I've ever been, right in our nation's capitol. Personally, I like it. Historically, mixing a variety of cultural traditions has always strengthened the culture it occurs in.

Don't know what's going on Germany, but I would guess that people suspect that a lot of the immigrant population does not identify as "German." And that it's particular to the perceieved threat of Islam, and the long history of conflict between Europe and the Arab world.

[Happy Ent]

Merkel, seeing the rise of the tide both abroad and indoors, is probably trying to prevent anti-islam sentiments from getting out of hand. I wonder if this is the right way to go about it.

She also needs to take over the discourse from the Social Democrats (Sarrazin is a Social Democrat).

The (relatively new) argument is against multiculturalsm (rather than immigration, or Islam), and that multiculturalism is a threat to the welfare state. This is a relatively unplowed field, and interestingly different in that it is not a right-wing argument. (The right wing itself, after all, is a threat to the welfare state.) If the social democrats were able to phrase a relatively careful platform that rejects multiculturalism for the sake of the Open Society then this would attract a large set of voters. (Including, for example, me, but also people who just don’t like furriners and want to make their voice heard, no matter how nicely it is packaged.) CDU needs these votes, and Sarrazin has set the bar for what is acceptable pretty high. Merkel certainly can’t be to the left of him.

[Hereward]

Don't know what's going on Germany, but I would guess that people suspect that a lot of the immigrant population does not identify as "German." And that it's particular to the perceieved threat of Islam, and the long history of conflict between Europe and the Arab world.

Well, as until 1999 immigrants weren't even allowed to become German, it seems unfair, not to mention premature, to criticise them for a failure to assimilate.

[Old Nan]

There's nothing wrong with aspiring to better yourself even if it isn't possible.