Home Schooling

[Darzin]

You know this is an interesting question for me. I was homeschooled myself for part of my education as well as going to public school for most of it with a little private school thrown in there for good measure.

I started my education being homeschooled in Kindergarten with both my Dad and my mom teaching me, but mostly my mom I’m actually not sure why they decided to home school me never actually thought about it really. My mom has a degree in early childhood education and my Dad used to be a high school Biology teacher so they were well qualified to teach me although my education was a little unbalanced, I learned all the normal stuff you would at that age but also ended up learning high school level marine biology which I got pretty well and some random bits of chemistry that I had know idea what to do with, for example covalent bonds until I got to high school and introductory Chemistry helped me connect the dots. We also went to a Home school group called Hall that was state funded and provided resources and activities for Home school kids we went a couple times a week and sometimes went on cool field trips such as visiting a coal plant, or seeing the Alvin (submarine that discovered the Titanic).

In second grade I attended a year of public school, and that summer my parents divorced and I started going to a Christian school in third grade, because it was close to my moms house and because I was friends with two kids who went there. I have never actually had a conversation with my parents about religion, so they certainly didn't home school me for religious reasons, I was, however, indoctrinated religiously at an accredited private school. We had Bible class every morning were we talked about Bible stories and God. We also sang hymns between lessons, and once I remember our teacher who was a young twenty something lady asking innocently if we knew that our country allowed murder, I raised my hand and asked if she meant the death penalty, and was informed that no the Bible said executions were ok, but Roe V. Wade was allowing millions to be murdered. I stayed at Lighthouse Christian school until the middle of fifth grade when I informed my parents I wanted to be homeschooled again because I found all the syllabuses and assignments to confusing.

They agreed to this although looking back I think it was a terrible decision. By this time my mom had come out as a Lesbian and it was her partner who was doing my education it was much the same as before, I went back to Hall and continued learning much as before, in 6th grade I went to a homeschool Co-Op with a strong Conservative Christian bent (A year after I left they forced out some friends of mine for being Mormon) but it wasn't to noticeable for a 6th grader and I’m really not sure if they knew about my mom or not. in 7th grade I was informed I would be attending Public School again and so I did until I graduated last year

So do I think homeschooling had any negative affect on me, A little yes. Sure I learned more in elementary school then most kids but over time it vented out I still know a little bit more about marine biology then most but my best skills and interests lie in reading and studying other cultures and History which I did not get a boost in my Home school education( In fact I learned very little History hardly any really). As for the negatives well it gave me and my parents a supreme boost of overconfidence in my abilities. They really thought I was a prodigy or something close they applied for me to skip a grade (although they were denied) and just assumed I would get straight A's and win lots of scholarships. I do read very fast and comprehend really well, but of course a kid who has been taught by a high school biology teacher is going to be a science wiz and while I new a lot of stuff I wasn't really good at applying myself the result? All my teachers said I was brilliant but ended up having to give me C's and D's because my work sucked I would get A's on tests and turn in hardly any homework. Some teachers actually just passed me because they knew I knew the material. I just wasn't used to having to remember stuff on time and was content with the praise until I actually failed a class sophomore year and then got my act together. A lot of this is on me of course I really should have tried harder and it took four years for me to get myself into gear, but I do feel a good portion of it was home school emphasizing content not deadlines and making me feel that as long as I knew the material I would be OK. Now I'm paying for my sins by going to Community College instead of a Four year university like me and my parents always imagined. I suppose I'll be happier when all my friends have to pay off their college debt and I have zero, still waiting another two years to leave the house for college is kind of depressing

As for social acclimation I feel I did pretty well the first year was a bit tough as I got used to the idea that some people don't like other people and dealing with that and cliques but by the spring of 8th Grade everything was normal to me and I had a circle of friends the same as everybody else.

It was kind of interesting watching people come in from Hall as most people don't home school their kids at the high school level. Most adjusted well enough but a good enough percent maybe one out of three didn’t really and became more of a loner I would definitely say that kids have a much higher chance of becoming socially inept or isolated as long as a kid has other activities with peers however they will probably do fine. For instance all the homeschooled Mormons I know (and I know way to many Mormons homeschooled or otherwise) did fine because there so many church activities with other kids they adjust just fine.

As for what we should do about Homeschooling I'm kind of mixed on it. We shouldn’t allow fundy wackjobs to teach there kids about Dino-Cowboy Jesus, but sometimes schools just suck or the teachers are the fundy wackjobs. I guess my solution would be to require Homeschooled kids and parents to report to a state funded institution like Hall once a week (right now attending is just an option but it still exists as far as I know) Give them lesson materials to teach their kids with and have monthly tests to ensure basic knowledge is actually being taught. I don't think and organization like this would have much overhead certainly I would have less than a regular school and it would allow parents to educate their children while still ensuring standards were being met.

[Cantabile]

I think homeschooling works better on paper then in real life. It’s biggest problem is the lack of oversight. In 10 States has no requirements for homeschoolers. The parents don’t even have to notify their school distract that they are pulling their child from school. In another 14 States that is the only requirement. There is no way an outside agency can check if the parents are educating their children or if the kid is learning. Seventeen states require some type of check. Ranging from self tests to an outside check of performance. No state requires holds homeschool children to the same standards as kids that are taught in public school. No State requires a homeschooled kid to take the same standardized test the kids in public school do.

This sounds like the issue to me, not the concept of homeschooling itself. There should be checks by the district's education system. In the program my daughter used, she met with an advisor once a week for an hour, as only in the presence of the adviser could tests be taken, and assignments turned in and reviewed. It was structured and funded by the public education system, and the teachers were all certified with decades of experience teaching in high schools, middle schools, etc. The curriculum was identical to the general public schools, with the only difference being that the student do all the work and be taught from the textbooks at home. Which allows for an incredible amount of free time for the students, as they don't have to deal with the filler of our education system. They can just do the required workload as quickly as possible, pass the tests, and be done for the week.

I almost feel like my concept of 'homeschool' is completely different than what most of you are discussing.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I know that several members of this board were homeschooled and speak positively about it. I’m glad it worked for them. It doesn’t work for everyone that is homeschooled. I worked with several homeschooled kids that were trying to get their GED. I had 5 kids self-identify as being homeschooled. There could’ve been more but I didn’t inquire into any of my students background. Of those 5, two just need a bit of help and go over a some of subjects that they didn’t learn. The other 3 had almost no math education. When I asked what the learned all three of them told me that their family pulled them out of school to work instead. One girl started to work when she was 9. One boys only education was 10 hours on Sunday at his “church.” Which was mostly made up of his family members.

Families that homeschool their children should be held to more rigorous oversight then they are being held to now.

All these problems exist in public schooling. I would bet that everyone here graduated high school with more than one person who could not read, despite 12 years of schooling. To say "It doesn't work for some people because there is no oversight" is somewhat disingenuous because public schooling (with absolute shit-tons of oversight) doesn't work for at least 8% of the people in it. That figure only accounts for dropouts, not for people who do graduate with little to no actual education.

[JungianQueen]

It's something we considered just because the public school system seems to get shittier with each passing year. And, honestly, I don't see us able to afford private schooling.

All of that said, I read somewhere that it's very expensive to homeschool. Is this true? (An expert out there know?)

There is a kid who was homeschooled in my graduate program and he's absolutely wonderful. He gets along with everyone. He's hyper-intelligent and really has a lot going for him.

Parents can socialize their kids even if they homeschool.

I think about all the bullshit kids go through in public schools from bullying (cyber and in-person) to experimenting with sex and drugs earlier and earlier. I'd love to send my child to a charter school. The differences in the kids (and their attitudes/mentality) are like night and day.

We'll see. I just don't know if I'd have the time and wherewithal to homeschool. I don't fault anyone for wanting to go that route, though. It sounds cool and they seem to have a mega assload of resources, help and such for people who do want to homeschool. It's not a Little House on the Prairie, Cult-like weirdness anymore. The programs I've looked at online are really quite sensible.

[Watcher]

All these problems exist in public schooling. I would bet that everyone here graduated high school with more than one person who could not read, despite 12 years of schooling. To say "It doesn't work for some people because there is no oversight" is somewhat disingenuous because public schooling (with absolute shit-tons of oversight) doesn't work for at least 8% of the people in it. That figure only accounts for dropouts, not for people who do graduate with little to no actual education.

My concern is that there is an unknown number of kids who aren't receiving a minimum education because their parents are forcing them to work instead of educating them. My point is that with the way that at least 24 States have structured their homeschooling laws, there is no way to know how the kids are doing. All studies, reports whatever about homeschooling is from a self selected group which makes them useless. You can point to public school problems because they must report on students progress. Similar problems, if they exist, with homeschooled children can't even be determined. Homeschooling might work well for some and not as well with others. The issue I have is that there is no way to determine who it may or may not work for.

This sounds like the issue to me, not the concept of homeschooling itself.

Which seems most likely, but there is no way to tell. My anecdotal evidence is from 3 kids I tutored whose parents made s horrible choice. Several people on this thread had positive or mostly positive experiences with homeschooling. Without an objective way to study it, no one can say whose experience is more common. The kids I tutored could represent a very small percentage of homeschool children. There should be a way to tell. I's important to be able to verify they are receiving some-type of education.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

It's something we considered just because the public school system seems to get shittier with each passing year. And, honestly, I don't see us able to afford private schooling.

All of that said, I read somewhere that it's very expensive to homeschool. Is this true? (An expert out there know?)

There is a kid who was homeschooled in my graduate program and he's absolutely wonderful. He gets along with everyone. He's hyper-intelligent and really has a lot going for him.

Parents can socialize their kids even if they homeschool.

I think about all the bullshit kids go through in public schools from bullying (cyber and in-person) to experimenting with sex and drugs earlier and earlier. I'd love to send my child to a charter school. The differences in the kids (and their attitudes/mentality) are like night and day.

We'll see. I just don't know if I'd have the time and wherewithal to homeschool. I don't fault anyone for wanting to go that route, though. It sounds cool and they seem to have a mega assload of resources, help and such for people who do want to homeschool. It's not a Little House on the Prairie, Cult-like weirdness anymore. The programs I've looked at online are really quite sensible.

Homeschooling can be somewhat expensive. If you want good textbooks, they cost money (remember college?) Someone has to stay home with the kids, which means someone is on reduced or eliminated employment. And you better like your kids a lot because they're the only people you'll see all day most days.

My concern is that there is an unknown number of kids who aren't receiving a minimum education because their parents are forcing them to work instead of educating them. My point is that with the way that at least 24 States have structured their homeschooling laws, there is no way to know how the kids are doing. All studies, reports whatever about homeschooling is from a self selected group which makes them useless. You can point to public school problems because they must report on students progress. Similar problems, if they exist, with homeschooled children can't even be determined. Homeschooling might work well for some and not as well with others. The issue I have is that there is no way to determine who it may or may not work for.

Which seems most likely, but there is no way to tell. My anecdotal evidence is from 3 kids I tutored whose parents made s horrible choice. Several people on this thread had positive or mostly positive experiences with homeschooling. Without an objective way to study it, no one can say whose experience is more common. The kids I tutored could represent a very small percentage of homeschool children. There should be a way to tell. I's important to be able to verify they are receiving some-type of education.

So...public schooling is better simply because we know what a massive failure it is? A known failure is better than an unknown success?

[Whitestripe]

Interesting thoughts everyone. And I am sorry for starting the topic and then leaving...real life interrupted my computer life.

I guess that I agree that it can go either way. I had a colleague at a meeting recently in Philadelphia. He was there with his family on random days in the middle of the school year. When I expressed surprise that he had his kids with him, he told me that he and his wife had made the decision to home school and a trip to Philadelphia was a perfect learning opportunity. I had to agree. On the other hand, someone I know from college is a stay at home dad. He's had the kids from birth and decided just to keep them instead of sending them to school. That seems a bit silly.

I share the opinion that kids should go to public school and the parents should supplement if they need to do so. That's what we are doing.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Scot

Aren't people moving back to inner cities and aren't people in those areas now complaining about how gentrification is raising property values and pushing out the poor as a result? My point is that these things happen in swings. Given enough time people will move away from home school and back to public schools too.

That's a very hand-waving kind of argument, Scot.

First, the return to urban centers is not universal, nor is it a true success, yet. I hope it will be. But as it stands, the problem of gentrification is a real one, because the return to urban centers did not accompany a real solution to habitual poverty in the urban areas that are being renovated. You end up simply displacing the problem, rather like how Katrina in NOLA simply displaced and dispersed the low-income families to other parts of the country. The real issues still remain. That's the difference between real urban revitalization and gentrification, where the former incorporates the current residents and integrates their needs and social demands into the planning, while the latter are rich(er) people moving in to a poor neighborhood and reap the benefits of increase in real estate value. So no, even if there's a swing back to public schools later I am not at all convinced that it will solve the problem that the original exodus will create.

Re: Tormund

All these problems exist in public schooling.

True that.

To say "It doesn't work for some people because there is no oversight" is somewhat disingenuous because public schooling (with absolute shit-tons of oversight) doesn't work for at least 8% of the people in it. That figure only accounts for dropouts, not for people who do graduate with little to no actual education.

But that's not really comparing equivalent populations. Public schools are mandated to take all students. That includes students with disruptive home environments as well as students with special educational needs. Public schools are also working with a much higher student-to-teacher ratio than homeschooling. So, considering all that, homeschools should outperform public schools.

But then, how would we know? Oversight and regulations are still being formulated for homeschools in most states. Until we have some good data on the homeschool movement, it's hard to say.

So...public schooling is better simply because we know what a massive failure it is? A known failure is better than an unknown success?

When you buy stock, do you choose between one where there's market research but it is showing that it is underperforming, or do you buy the one that's an unknown but with hints and promises of great return?

Re: JungianQueen

I think about all the bullshit kids go through in public schools from bullying (cyber and in-person) to experimenting with sex and drugs earlier and earlier. I'd love to send my child to a charter school. The differences in the kids (and their attitudes/mentality) are like night and day.

While there are many children who flourish despite their home environment, I think you will find that most kids who perform well in school also have a stable and nurturing home environment. It does not take homeschooling to provide that. It just takes parents who are engaged in their children's education.

It sounds cool and they seem to have a mega assload of resources, help and such for people who do want to homeschool. It's not a Little House on the Prairie, Cult-like weirdness anymore. The programs I've looked at online are really quite sensible.

This varies greatly by locale and by individual parents. There are plenty of cult-like homeschool movements, as well.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

When you buy stock, do you choose between one where there's market research but it is showing that it is underperforming, or do you buy the one that's an unknown but with hints and promises of great return?

If the stock has never increased in value, and always shown less return than the prior year? I'll gamble on the unknown :)

[Guest Raidne]

Wouldn't all objections be solved just by subjecting home schooled kids to the same annual standardized tests that public school kids are subjected to? If they perform at a failing level, the parents lose the ability to home school. If they perform at a marginal rate two years in a row, the parents lose the ability to home school. Sure, this conflicts with a parent's right to raise their children as they see fit, but it also guarantees the child's right to a minimum level of education.

ETA: Also, I wholly disagree with the idea of giving the parents funding to offset any taxes paid for public schools, or otherwise cancelling their payments to support public school either.

If the state already has a voucher system, it may seem unfair, but it's not, because those children are still paying tuition somewhere. OTOH, I do think those parents should have free access to the same textbooks used by the public school in their district. But their labor is their own. Otherwise, they should be subjected to the same rigorous standards that teachers are, and nobody wants to go that far.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Tormund

If the stock has never increased in value, and always shown less return than the prior year? I'll gamble on the unknown :)

Your market research is faulty. :-p

Re: Raidne

Wouldn't all objections be solved just by subjecting home schooled kids to the same annual standardized tests that public school kids are subjected to? If they perform at a failing level, the parents lose the ability to home school. If they perform at a marginal rate two years in a row, the parents lose the ability to home school. Sure, this conflicts with a parent's right to raise their children as they see fit, but it also guarantees the child's right to a minimum level of education.

I agree.

The issue is who's paying for the supervision, regulation, and the enforcement of corrective measures? Schools are evaluated and accredited, but how practical would it be to evaluate and accredit each home that is practicing homeschooling? I'd also imagine that for plenty of homeschooling households, the idea of the Big Government intruding on their little educational oasis is the antithesis to what they are trying to accomplish, and you will likely face a very strong resistance to have government oversight.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

I agree.

The issue is who's paying for the supervision, regulation, and the enforcement of corrective measures? Schools are evaluated and accredited, but how practical would it be to evaluate and accredit each home that is practicing homeschooling? I'd also imagine that for plenty of homeschooling households, the idea of the Big Government intruding on their little educational oasis is the antithesis to what they are trying to accomplish, and you will likely face a very strong resistance to have government oversight.

When I was homeschooled we had to all (all the kids in the district who were homeschooled) show up to one of the public schools on the same day to take the test from one of the public school teachers. It wasn't a big inconvenience or cost.

[Guest Raidne]

Hell, the president doesn't have his kids in public school, so why should I (him and every president with young kids before him, at least since Ford)? IMHO, the government doesn't have an interest in creating an effective public school system.

Nobody would seriously consider enrolling their children in DC public schools. Seriously.

But we also have a voucher system here that failing parents could take advantage of if they were not meeting minimum testing requirements. Or maybe we could change the standards in areas with "failing" public schools, like DC.

But you can't rate public schools by looking at DC public schools - they are probably up there with Detroit, ranking as the worst in the country.

In both cases, which came first, terrible public schools, or a population that sends its kids to private school? Who knows.

The issue is who's paying for the supervision, regulation, and the enforcement of corrective measures?

Doesn't seem very complex to me. You'd just do this:

When I was homeschooled we had to all (all the kids in the district who were homeschooled) show up to one of the public schools on the same day to take the test from one of the public school teachers. It wasn't a big inconvenience or cost.

I'm not trying to say that homeschooled kids should be subject to all the oversight public schools are - just mandatory testing once or twice a year.

[ljkeane]

I'm not trying to say that homeschooled kids should be subject to all the oversight public schools are - just mandatory testing once or twice a year.

Why should children being put in an education environment with more risks involved be subject to less oversight?

[Minaku]

Raids, the mandatory standardized testing is exactly what would get me to homeschool my child. Yes, there are goals that should be met by the curricula at the end of the year, but I am strongly against the standardized testing. That only results in teaching to the test in order to get good results. I would prefer the usual grade system and a cumulative test of what was learned over the year. Wait a second, that sounds Ike midterms and finals!

A I said upthread, even six year olds are being subjected to hours of testing now. It's atrocious. I have an eleven year old student who has sat so many different standardized tests that i forget all the acronyms - ITBS, CRCT, now he's doing the middle school SAT thing, ugh. I'm not helping either because I'm prepping him for a piano exam, but at least that isn't standardized.

Kids need freedom to grow, discover, learn, and apply. Standardized testing does not offer that.

Edit: does anyone know how to turn autocorrect on Apple products off? It is seriously harshing my mellow.

Edit 2: Nevermind, I found it.

[peterbound]

If we can't look at public schools in one geographical area, we can rate public schools by the fact that there is a +30% dropout rate nationwide. Many more of those people, I'm sure, graduate school not knowing how to read above a 6th grade level.

To me, saying that kids are not being guaranteed an education if they go through homeschooling sounds like a sick joke. There is no guarantee of education in the current system. People are not graduating with diplomas at an increasing rate, so I don't see why we should hold homeschooling parents accountable if we can't hold ourselves accountable.

It's also a sick joke that the president doesn't have enough faith in the public education system to send their kids through it.

Looks like the HS graduation rate was higher in the 1990s.

Out of curiosity. Does your numbers account for the raise in Charter schools? There was a big surge in the mid - late 90's in charter education. That may account for some of the numbers dropping in the traditional public education.

Or not.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Why should children being put in an education environment with more risks involved be subject to less oversight?

You'll need to show that there are "more risks" to homeschooling. What risks?

Raids, the mandatory standardized testing is exactly what would get me to homeschool my child. Yes, there are goals that should be met by the curricula at the end of the year, but I am strongly against the standardized testing. That only results in teaching to the test in order to get good results. I would prefer the usual grade system and a cumulative test of what was learned over the year. Wait a second, that sounds Ike midterms and finals!

A I said upthread, even six year olds are being subjected to hours of testing now. It's atrocious. I have an eleven year old student who has sat so many different standardized tests that i forget all the acronyms - ITBS, CRCT, now he's doing the middle school SAT thing, ugh. I'm not helping either because I'm prepping him for a piano exam, but at least that isn't standardized.

Kids need freedom to grow, discover, learn, and apply. Standardized testing does not offer that.

Edit: does anyone know how to turn autocorrect on Apple products off? It is seriously harshing my mellow.

Edit 2: Nevermind, I found it.

Standardized testing wasn't a big deal to the homeschoolers growing up. Most of us were so far past the test it was silly. I remember volunteering at the local grade school when I was 17 and kids being brought in from recess to study for the state tests.

The bolded part of your quote is why I am such a big fan of homeschooling. I learned geology in the Colombia Gorge, the Grand Canyon, and Crater Lake. I learned biology in the fields and forests of Western Oregon. I learned physics on the baseball diamond and pool table. I went on ride alongs with the local police and fire departments. I volunteered at the county historical museum and the library. My sister took piano equestrian lessons. Actual book work only took 2-4 hours per day.

[ljkeane]

You'll need to show that there are "more risks" to homeschooling. What risks?

Well as a bare minimum leaving aside education if parents are able to prevent their children from encountering any other responsible adults of they choose then the risks of any parental abuse going unnoticed would increase significantly.

Beyond that teachers are required to demonstrate they have the minimum required standard of educational ability in order to teach children, if that isn't required of parents then clearly there is the risk that they will fail to meet even that standard that is apparently not producing acceptable results for education in the US.

[Guest Raidne]

Why should children being put in an education environment with more risks involved be subject to less oversight?

Because in a public school system you owe a duty to the parents of the children in addition to the children themselves, while in a homeschooling situation you have to respect the right of the parents to raise their children as they see fit, balanced wiht the rights of the child. So, with public school it's duty + duty and with homeschooling it's rights vs. duty.

It's also a sick joke that the president doesn't have enough faith in the public education system to send their kids through it.

Obama has been asked about this multiple times and says that while he is committed to improving public schools, right now public schools in many areas - like DC and Chicago - are still struggling. And they are - DC schools are awful. Why he should have faith in them? He can have faith that they can be fixed over time without sending his daughters there right now.

No way would I send my kids to DC public schools, and I am also committed to quality public school education.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

Well as a bare minimum leaving aside education if parents are able to prevent their children from encountering any other responsible adults of they choose then the risks of any parental abuse going unnoticed would increase significantly.

Point granted.

Beyond that teachers are required to demonstrate they have the minimum required standard of educational ability in order to teach children, if that isn't required of parents then clearly there is the risk that they will fail to meet even that standard that is apparently not producing acceptable results for education in the US.

But clearly the minimum standard already fails nearly 1 out of 3 children (per Coco's links). How much worse could homeschooling possibly do? It would seem you'll need to show worse statistics for homeschooling (which, just so you know you won't be able to do).