Towers of Midnight II

[fionwe1987]

I think I told you last year that you seemed to see everything WoT through rose-tinted glasses and I'll say it again! :P You'll have agree to disagree with me.

Rot. I have plenty of issues with Sanderson's writing, which you'll see in any of the inumerable discussions on tGS. That doesn't mean I think everything he does is crap. And when a fairly well paced story is called slow, I'll call it out.

Getting bogged down in the interminable and often boring Perrin and Galad storylines wasn't my cup of tea. Yes, stuff occurs, but it's mostly just fucking around before we can reach the culmination of those plotlines. Once that's done, the book begins to move at a crisp pace.

Thing is, because of the constant PoV shifts, these weren't nearly as dull as they could have been. They were necessary to the story, but not presented in the slow way they were in books 9-10.

It's not about battles. It's about moving the story forward. When the Last Battle has begun, I don't want to read about Faile having a conversation with a crook of a quartermaster who is cheating people. Especially when that pointless and boring scenes gets more airtime than a confrontation between a character with a Forsaken later in the book.

That Faile thing took about half a page. As did the contest you refer to. But any longer, and the contest would have lost its power. The reason it worked so well was because it was quick.

Some people seem to think that it smells like roses when Brandon Sanderson takes a dump. Some things he does well, while others he doesn't. Some of the scenes in the last third of the book are AWESOME. The first 2/3 are okay.

I think no such thing though. I still think Sanderson is less subtle as a writer, and that shows up in this book as well. But I completely disagree that nothing much happens in the first 2/3rds.

[TerraPrime]

That Faile thing took about half a page. As did the contest you refer to. But any longer, and the contest would have lost its power. The reason it worked so well was because it was quick.

That really is neither here nor there. The point that Pat was making is the relative importance to the main story arc. Faile's story is given about the same screen time as the confrontation, but in terms of story, the event with the Forsaken has a much larger significance. So, the two events should not have been given the same air time. If the minor plotlines are given more time than they ought to be, we get the situation with books 7, 8, 9, and 10, where things are overly bloated.

[fionwe1987]

That really is neither here nor there. The point that Pat was making is the relative importance to the main story arc. Faile's story is given about the same screen time as the confrontation, but in terms of story, the event with the Forsaken has a much larger significance. So, the two events should not have been given the same air time. If the minor plotlines are given more time than they ought to be, we get the situation with books 7, 8, 9, and 10, where things are overly bloated.

That makes no sense. The quality of a scene has nothing to do with airtime. That Faile scene, for example, was a part of a chapter that showed how things were getting back to normal in Perrin's camp and that Faile was back in control. Remove that, and his later successes make absolutely no sense. It is a part of the story that needs to be told for the whole to make sense, and since it didn't take much space, there is no cause for complaint.

The confrontation with the Foresaken was a part of a bigger battle, and got exactly the right amount of space. Just because it is more important doesn't mean the story would have been better served if it had lasted longer. Especially given the nature of the confrontation.

[pat5150]

:bs:

Come on, man!

Sorry, watching the Monday Night Football Countdown.

Seriously, that pointless camp scene has absolutely no relevence. NONE. On the other hand, the culmination of a Forsaken storyline which dates back from ACoS (IIRC) is a MAJOR event. Which lasts a couple paragraphs, while Faile's conversation with the quartermaster lasts a couple of pages.

No offense, but this what I mean when I say that you see everything through rose-tinted glasses. . .

Patrick

[End of Disc One]

No offense, but this what I mean when I say that you see everything through rose-tinted glasses. . .

Maybe he does, but I think you have a rose-tinted memory of the pre-Sanderson WoT books.

[fionwe1987]

This is getting beyond stupid...

Since you made such absurd claims, I went and checked...

Faile and the Quartermaster was one and a quarter pages long. The Foresaken confrontation was three and a half pages long! And I'd like to know what else could have been added to make that confrontation any more satisfactory. Maybe you could reply in the spoiler thread...

As for Faile's scene being irrelevant... are you kidding me? Did you seriously just blank out what was going on there?

Far from seeing it through rose tinted glasses, I'm seeing things as they are. You, on the other hand, seem to have decided that since Brandon Sanderson is at the helm, everything needs to be criticized. Your tGS review was heavily biased. You said:

My biggest complaint would have to be that when one reaches the end of The Gathering Storm, you simply don't get the feeling that you are any closer to Tarmon Gai'don than we were at the end of Knife of Dreams.

Which has got to be one of the silliest things I've heard about that book. The White Tower gets healed, the Seanchan attack, the Black Ajah is defeated and Rand gets his sanity back... but we're still in the same spot as we were at the end of KoD?

The tinted glasses aren't covering my eyes, I'm afraid...

[pat5150]

My friend, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. If you are willing to give as much importance to the two scenes, so be it.

Don't want to be pedantic, but nothing you point out to support your claim regarding my quote demonstrates that we were closer to the Last Battle at the end of TGS. The plot had moved forward, yes, and some storylines had reached their culmination. I never claimed otherwise. But we were no closer to witnessing Tarmon Gai'don. We knew it was coming, but had nothing concrete to show for it, other than the Dark One's bubbles. With ToM, the shit finally hits the fan! :)

End of Disc One: Only the first 6 WoT books, which remain some of the best storytelling I've encountered. You'll never find me defending TPoD, WH, and CoT. But I do feel that ACoS is a better book than many fans seem to think. Only the ending sucked because it was rushed.

In any case, everyone will soon have the book so they can form their own opinion about it. :thumbsup:

Patrick

[Kouran]

Just went and looked on walmart.com, according to the website the book isnt sold in stores. This might be a case where the book isnt listed becuase it isnt available yet.

[brook]

I was just emailed that my copy is in store waiting for me but I wont be able to go and pick it up until tomorrow, if I'd known they were going to release it early I would have been able to organise to get in there today. :tantrum:

[pat5150]

And my review is now up!

Though I gave the book an 8/10, which is usually enough to crack my yearly Top 10, 10 to 1 odds say they'll still call me a hater! :P

Patrick

[kcf]

My review of Towers of Midnight is also live. It has some mild spoilers, but I mark them clearly.

An excerpt:

In summary, I really enjoyed Towers of Midnight as I imagine most fans will. A lot happens, many theories die an agonizing death and many play out pretty well as anticipated. What may be a bit more unexpected are the new things we see the end is nigh, but there is a lot left to happen. Some characters people want to see arent to be found, some resolutions we are begging for still remain, but this is a book of action. There are issues, and it certainly isnt the thematically coherent volume that The Gathering Storm was. However, it is a book to bring laughter and tears to legions of fans. The biggest tears of all because of the ending no, not that, but because this book basically ends grasping to the edge of a cliff. The resolutions we get are great, but I cant help but beg to know whats going to happen next bring on A Memory of Light.

(full review)

[kuenjato]

And my review is now up!

Though I gave the book an 8/10, which is usually enough to crack my yearly Top 10, 10 to 1 odds say they'll still call me a hater! :P

Patrick

Good review, I thought. I wonder if the 'filler' is BS honoring RJ's style in the last 5 books. Although I'm more of a 'less is more' kind of guy, particularly with the descriptive excessiveness, it might have felt too breakneck to write all those scenes in just two books. Keep in mind I haven't read TGS, though...

edit: moved...

[fionwe1987]

My friend, as I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. If you are willing to give as much importance to the two scenes, so be it.

I don't give equal importance to the two scenes. The author doesn't give equal importance to the two scenes. The book doesn't give equal importance to the two scenes. Only you seem to think that is the case.

Don't want to be pedantic, but nothing you point out to support your claim regarding my quote demonstrates that we were closer to the Last Battle at the end of TGS. The plot had moved forward, yes, and some storylines had reached their culmination. I never claimed otherwise. But we were no closer to witnessing Tarmon Gai'don. We knew it was coming, but had nothing concrete to show for it, other than the Dark One's bubbles. With ToM, the shit finally hits the fan! :)

Really? Even after ToM, the importance of Rand's actions atop Dragonmount isn't clear?

[fionwe1987]

My review of Towers of Midnight is also live. It has some mild spoilers, but I mark them clearly.

An excerpt:

(full review)

Nice review Ken. That is mostly my view of the thing. I too was excited by the way Perrin was handled. The shift from insignificant ta'veren whining over his wife to Wolf King leading the Last Hunt

wasn't abrupt, which I appreciated. I think that one scene of his in TAR where he witnesses one of the pivotal moments of the entire series was quite amazing. He did indeed have some surprising moments of awesome. And the maturation of the relationhip between him and Faile was welcome. They are the most believable and well written couple in the series, which goes to show how badly romance has been handled in general.

I enjoyed some aspects of Egwene's story. Others, not so much. I felt Gawyn was a huge distraction except in that one scene he was not. I wish Sanderson had decided to sideline him a little more in favor of Nynaeve, who truly does come into her own in this book.

As for Aviendha... at least that is something everyone is able to agree with. I'm not a freak for loving those scenes. YAY! In some ways, it has the potential to change the entire direction of the series itself. I actually liked where it was placed. Clearly, it has nothing to do with the other storylines immediately. But it colored them so very heavily that I feel an earlier placement would just not have worked.

Elayne was the characters Sanderson failed with most, I think. There were clear moments when she's the cerebral yet somewhat immature character that RJ wrote. Then she's so tepid she might as well not be there. Sanderson's hand is really visible in some ways here, and his Elayne is a disappointment. But I'm with you on the letter. Mat really should have taken that up as a career!

In the end, I'd have to say that while tGS showed off the thematic strengths of WoT, ToM showed the great strength of its plot. A part of me does wish the book had been split into two. For that much I'm in agreement with Pat, though for different reasons.

[kcf]

Elayne was the characters Sanderson failed with most, I think. There were clear moments when she's the cerebral yet somewhat immature character that RJ wrote. Then she's so tepid she might as well not be there. Sanderson's hand is really visible in some ways here, and his Elayne is a disappointment. But I'm with you on the letter. Mat really should have taken that up as a career!

I don't know - right now I'm in the middle of COT for my WOT re-read/listen. And Sanderson gets Elayne pretty well. I think that a large part of people thinking Sanderson doesn't get a character is that they are selectively remembering things about characters. Sanderson does get them - he gets them so well that the bad that most people forget as soon as they can shines through at times.

[mashiara]

I'm torn between reading everything that's posted here and yelling at you guys to take this discussion to the spoiler thread. :unsure:

kcf, I liked your review (and I made sure I skipped over the spoiler parts, thanks for the warning.)

Pat, I'm afraid to read yours even though I want to, I don't want to get spoilered more than I have already. :)

Damn you, BookDepository, I have never hated you more! Send me my book already!

[kcf]

Pat's doesn't spoil any more than what you read in mine.

[fionwe1987]

I don't know - right now I'm in the middle of COT for my WOT re-read/listen. And Sanderson gets Elayne pretty well. I think that a large part of people thinking Sanderson doesn't get a character is that they are selectively remembering things about characters. Sanderson does get them - he gets them so well that the bad that most people forget as soon as they can shines through at times.

No, it isn't that. I don't even really mind Elayne in CoT. She's always been one of the better characters to me. What I felt Sanderson got wrong was how much she is in the background, at times. Her being in awe of Egwene's weaves, for example, was just completely out of character. Her doing nothing about the Gholam was even more baffling. Mat got extra foxheads from her, and the use of her soldiers. That she herself wasn't involved in some way at least wasn't really in character. The Elayne we know would have insisted on being in the heart of it with Mat. They'd have had to talk her out of it, and make her accept a safer assignment. That she was not there at all, with no explanation, is really absurd.

Her future plans for Andor were in character. And you can see the link between that and Aviendha's viewing. But there were too many instances where you'd expect Elayne to be sprinting at the lead, but instead she isn't in the race at all.

[mashiara]

Pat's doesn't spoil any more than what you read in mine.

Good to know, thank you. I'll read it after I get back from work. :)

[kcf]

No, it isn't that. I don't even really mind Elayne in CoT. She's always been one of the better characters to me. What I felt Sanderson got wrong was how much she is in the background, at times. Her being in awe of Egwene's weaves, for example, was just completely out of character. Her doing nothing about the Gholam was even more baffling. Mat got extra foxheads from her, and the use of her soldiers. That she herself wasn't involved in some way at least wasn't really in character. The Elayne we know would have insisted on being in the heart of it with Mat. They'd have had to talk her out of it, and make her accept a safer assignment. That she was not there at all, with no explanation, is really absurd.

She's pregnant and is finally beginning to be smart about keeping her unborn children safe (though it took an extreme moment of stupidity for her to figure it out). So, her actions actually feel very much in character to me.

edit: anything more on this really needs to go to the spoiler thread.