Towers of Midnight II

[MaesterLuwin]

I disagree here. I enjoyed most all of LoC, and it probably had more important developments than any other book in the series. I also liked how it switched between PoVs pretty often, instead of spending 100+ pages with one character at a time. I really don't find LoC to be bloated.

I agree, speaking as one of the many who considers LoC the best book. There's a lot of information in that novel, but I wouldn't consider it bloat because it all pays off by the end of the book, and not three or four books down the road. All the politicking between the Salidar Aes Sedai, the Tower Aes Sedai, and Rand comes together in a big and satisfying way. Smaller plotlines, like Rand refusing to take the Maidens with him on trips, the rise of the Asha'man, the Aes Sedai conflict with the Wise Ones, Perrin bitching about his leadership role, the Black Ajah, and the plotting of the Cairheinin nobles also all contribute to the conclusion. So yeah, Dumai's Wells is a great scene, but most of the book is spent setting it up. Later books have this sort of complex plotting, but the payoff is never in the same volume, and never as spectacular as the end of LoC.

This is the last book in the series that feels like a self-contained volume, where elements introduced in the prologue come back to effect the the end of the book...later prologues become a "Day in the Life of Minor Characters in Randland" sort of chapters, that exist more to remind you that characters still exist then to contribute anything to the current volume at hand. (I like the later volumes, but I feel that RJ's plotting got out of hand, and they stopped being coherent, unified volumes, and became more of a serial update that started and stopped right in the middle of the action).

The only part of LoC which is weak is when Mat takes the Red Hand to Salidar and then jets off to Ebou Dar with Elayne and Nynaeve. This is very clearly half a book, but there's enough meat with Egwene's promotion to Amyrlin and Mat dealing with real responsibilities to make up for it.

[Wouter]

I think the Lanfear support comes mostly from the fact that if she were around, she would be the obvious, obvious suspect. She is erratic, likes killing, is angry at Rand, has already betrayed Asmodean once, could get there, has the means to do it, has the ability to hide herself from other channelers, and the list goes on. Really, if it weren't for falling through the rings, she would easily qualify for Jordan's "intuitively obvious" criteria.

So people start making pretty far fetched defenses that maybe she made a deal with the Finns to get back at Asmodean. It seems pretty convoluted, I admit, but hey, everybody is grasping at straws when it comes to these theories.

Lanfear was also the person Asmodean was thinking about right before he died - he was "hardly sorry she was dead". That does make Lanfear an intuitive candidate for his killer, especially when we heavily suspected Moiraine wasn't quite dead and thus neither was Lanfear, presumably. It's mostly the appearance of Cyndane that killed the Lanfear theory, for the most part. What exactly happened between Lanfear, Moiraine and the *Finns remains unclear though - I guess we will know after Matt completes his trip to *Finnland.

Nice summary, Old Nan. I forgot that Logain was all but absent (or possibly completely absent?) from TGS. He's one of the second-tier characters that interests me, mainly because we're still not sure what makes him tick. At first I thought his role in the series was just as a way to show what could happen to Rand (stilled and suicidal), but ever since Min's "future glory" revelation around Book 4, I've been very intrigued by where his plot is going. He seems to be anti-Taim, but that doesn't make him necessarily a good guy. My own pet theory is that he's somehow going to take credit for victory at the Last Battle, either after Rand dies or appears to be dead. But I suppose he could simply be the new M'Hael of the Black Tower, and on par with Egwene.

Logain is a very interesting character - a little tidbit from EOTW: he can "see" Ta'veren, much like Siuan Sanche can. I agree that nowhere does it say explicitly that Logain is "good", nevertheless he seems to be popular among his men, lenient to his Aes Sedai captives and in general RJ seems to have gone out of his way since TSR to show Logain in a rather positive light. That he is frustrated with Rand now and again seems very reasonable, with Rand going bonkers generally, being very untrusting and doing nothing about Taim despite the warnings.

What I am curious about is what Logains motive was to name himself dragon. Did he really believe himself to be? Or was it just a powergrab?

[Suttree]

Lanfear was also the person Asmodean was thinking about right before he died - he was "hardly sorry she was dead". That does make Lanfear an intuitive candidate for his killer, especially when we heavily suspected Moiraine wasn't quite dead and thus neither was Lanfear, presumably. It's mostly the appearance of Cyndane that killed the Lanfear theory, for the most part. What exactly happened between Lanfear, Moiraine and the *Finns remains unclear though - I guess we will know after Matt completes his trip to *Finnland.

Logain is a very interesting character - a little tidbit from EOTW: he can "see" Ta'veren, much like Siuan Sanche can. I agree that nowhere does it say explicitly that Logain is "good", nevertheless he seems to be popular among his men, lenient to his Aes Sedai captives and in general RJ seems to have gone out of his way since TSR to show Logain in a rather positive light. That he is frustrated with Rand now and again seems very reasonable, with Rand going bonkers generally, being very untrusting and doing nothing about Taim despite the warnings.

What I am curious about is what Logains motive was to name himself dragon. Did he really believe himself to be? Or was it just a powergrab?

He was a powerful male channeler that had no idea the Dragon had been reborn. Based on his character I think he thought he actually could have been.

[MaesterLuwin]

He was a powerful male channeler that had no idea the Dragon had been reborn. Based on his character I think he thought he actually could have been.

That's why he laughed when he saw Rand in Caemlyn, right? He saw that ta'veren glow and realized that Rand was going to change the world in a far bigger way than what Logain had done.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Old Nan,

My favorite book is TSR. The sequence in Rhudean is unparalleled so far in the series. The amazing rise in the number of POV characters is part of the reason I never finished LoC.

[Suttree]

That's why he laughed when he saw Rand in Caemlyn, right? He saw that ta'veren glow and realized that Rand was going to change the world in a far bigger way than what Logain had done.

That is exactly right. Just before Rand hopped the wall into the palace he saw Logain being brought into the city, who then later had a recollection of the event. He has been acting as Rand's "Lieutenant and also has been seen to have glory in his future. The thing I wonder about is Egwene once had a dream in which Logain steps over Rand's corpse, sits on a throne and laughs maniacally, while Rand's corpse collapses into leaves. Any guesses as to what that's about?

[Gertrude]

Scott, I agree - Rhuidean is so far my favorite scene of the series. It blew me away.

Suttree, I always supposed that Logain would get the credit for saving the world. I don't know if that means that Rand dies and Logain finishes the job, or if Rand wants to dissappear and sets Logain up to be in that position. I'm sure I've read people on other boards discussing this and it seems a fairly common interpretation. Rand's corpse is actually a paper puppet if I recall, so that gives it a different meaning than just a corpse. At one point, I entertained the thought that Logain really was the Dragon, and Rand was just an elaborate decoy, but I just can't make this work. The thing that kills it for me that Rand has very specific Lews Therin memories. Anyone else who regularly follows other boards ever come across a similar theory? I still think it would be a pretty cool twist.

[fionwe1987]

Scott, I agree - Rhuidean is so far my favorite scene of the series. It blew me away.

Suttree, I always supposed that Logain would get the credit for saving the world. I don't know if that means that Rand dies and Logain finishes the job, or if Rand wants to dissappear and sets Logain up to be in that position. I'm sure I've read people on other boards discussing this and it seems a fairly common interpretation. Rand's corpse is actually a paper puppet if I recall, so that gives it a different meaning than just a corpse. At one point, I entertained the thought that Logain really was the Dragon, and Rand was just an elaborate decoy, but I just can't make this work. The thing that kills it for me that Rand has very specific Lews Therin memories. Anyone else who regularly follows other boards ever come across a similar theory? I still think it would be a pretty cool twist.

I don't think Logain is the real DR, but it certainly looks as if he will take up that job when Rand fakes his death. The idea of fake Dragons has been around for ever, and there's a suggestion that the Shadow planned to do that with Taim to spread chaos (they still might. This might be the big thing that was brought up in books 4-6. Taim and Logain may both claim to be DR after Rand's "death").

But, I also agree that history may remember Logain as the true Dragon. There's foreshadowing for this when Thom says in tSR that for they knew, he would be remembered at the DR in future. Taim talks about victors getting the spoils too, and about how no one would have cared about the prophesies if he had won enough support and done what the DR was supposed to do.

[Gertrude]

I don't really think Logain is the real dragon either, but it was always rattling around in the back of my head as a 'what if'.

[Wouter]

Scott, I agree - Rhuidean is so far my favorite scene of the series. It blew me away.

Suttree, I always supposed that Logain would get the credit for saving the world. I don't know if that means that Rand dies and Logain finishes the job, or if Rand wants to dissappear and sets Logain up to be in that position. I'm sure I've read people on other boards discussing this and it seems a fairly common interpretation. Rand's corpse is actually a paper puppet if I recall, so that gives it a different meaning than just a corpse. At one point, I entertained the thought that Logain really was the Dragon, and Rand was just an elaborate decoy, but I just can't make this work. The thing that kills it for me that Rand has very specific Lews Therin memories. Anyone else who regularly follows other boards ever come across a similar theory? I still think it would be a pretty cool twist.

I third the notion about the Rhuidean "memory" sequency in TSR being the best scenes of the entire series. That was RJ at his very best, long before he got really annoying at places.

You are correct that the "paper body" thing is an important distinction. There are other suggestions that Rand may fake his death (or sort-off "die" but come back somehow), like for example Min's prediction that Alivia will "help him die" and the answer from the *finn that "to live, you must die". Rand obviously considers Alivia a valuable ally rather than a deadly threat, so it seems reasonable that he has a plan that involves "dying". As his righthand man (for the channeling part, in any case) Logain may well fill the void left by Rand "dying".

Alternatively, Logain may turn out to be leader of the world/leader of channelers a la Lews Therin once the last battle is over and done with and Rand is dead or "retired".

[Gertrude]

The dream was that Logain stepped over Rand to mount a black stone, so it could be as simple as Wouter says - Logain becomes the head of the Black Tower. Rand is only a figurehead anyway so the puppet sort of fits. Personally I want it to be more than that, because that would be a bit of a let-down. We've been hit over the head that Logain has glory in his future and that Rand will 'die', so it needs a good pay-off. Gah - I try not to let my expectations color my feelings for what actually happens in the books, but when you've had years and years and years to think on it, you form opinions :)

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Gertrude,

If Rand steps down from being Dragon Reborn how does he explain his harem? Most cultures in Randland would frown on Rand's openly polyamorus relationships. He's not going to be able to get away with this if he's not the Dragon Reborn in Title as well as fact.

[Poobah]

Gertrude,

If Rand steps down from being Dragon Reborn how does he explain his harem? Most cultures in Randland would frown on Rand's openly polyamorus relationships. He's not going to be able to get away with this if he's not the Dragon Reborn in Title as well as fact.

Blast anyone with the power who argues? Travel to an island and give the rest of the world the finger? Hell, form a circle and use callandor and Travel to another planet: fuck those ungrateful bitches who give you no credit for saving the world.

[Gertrude]

If he steps down, I'd think it would be because he wanted or needed to dissappear off the radar. If he hides from the world, then what does it matter? He can live with the Aiel - they seem to have no problems with it. I have no idea how they will live happily ever after, if Rand even lives, but I don't see that part of it as being a problem. Elayne has obligations, of course, but both she and he can Travel, so really, it doesn't matter where he decides to end up. I could never see how Rand openly being her consort would have worked anyway. I never saw him in a long-term power position. He's the temporary fix the Pattern spit out, but after he's done doing his Dragon thing, he's disposable and an uneccessary distraction.

[David Selig]

Hey, after the guy saves the world, the least people can do is leave him alone to live with as many wives he has convinced to marry him.

But since it's the WoT world, it would be fitting that most people won't give Rand credit for saving he world (probably believing all kinds of ridiculous rumours instead) and will get indignant over a small detail like that.

[Werthead]

Slightly over-the-top press release advert thing that Orbit have sent to SFX Magazine.

[macaroni]

I think the King Arthur trope will rear it's head again. Three women on a boat heading to Avalon.

[Poobah]

Slightly over-the-top press release advert thing that Orbit have sent to SFX Magazine.

SLIGHTLY?

8 Women aren’t just token gestures

<insert paragraph about how Jordan has great characterisation of women>

Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing.

[fionwe1987]

Slightly over-the-top press release advert thing that Orbit have sent to SFX Magazine.

As said... slightly? I blush for them...

Excuse me while I roll on the floor laughing.

That's actually one of the parts I agree on, even though they do a poor job of defining his female characters.

[Galactus]

I don't think Jordan has great characterization of women... By sheer weight of numbers, however, he ends up with a larger number of interesting female characters than well... Just about any other fantasy series I can think of.

And they still only make up about 1/10 of the female cast :P