Towers of Midnight II

[fionwe1987]

Advance spoilers like this are always iffy at best. Who revealed it? Are they trustworthy? I've seen several releases of WOT now and each one has spoilers that come out early. And only about 10% of those spoilers turn out to be true.

Is this a hint that the spoiler is not real? :P

[Myrddin]

Finding out the killer of Asmoden is the one spoiler I don't mind reading. :)

It's been an itch too long ignored. Is it an important plot point? Not really. Just irritating that it wasn't revealed in books 6-8. Waiting for book 13 is just silly.

[kcf]

Is this a hint that the spoiler is not real? :P

It could be read as that.

Of couse that comment could have absolutely no relation on whether or not Asmodean's killer is actually revealed in TOM (regardless of what Larry has implied - gee, he'd never pull anyone's strings), or it could be absolutely correct.

Me, I'd wait to read it for myself.

Now, TOM copies are turning up in bookstores and it's only a matter of time before very real spoilers become commonplace around here (I know at least Theoryland will delete any spoilers until the 2nd). But I won't do anything but post cryptic comments until the 2nd.

[David Selig]

Somehow I resisted checking this spoiler, even though part of me really wanted to. I guess now would be a good time to start ignoring this topic and visiting WoT Sites until I read the book, the chance for spoilers is too great.

[mashiara]

Pretty excited for Towers of Midnight. If it's on par with TGS, I'll be happy. Getting the occasional "Hey, this isn't RJ!" moment is better than having never found out how it ended.

This. I'm getting excited too, I just wish I could get it on my hands the day it's released instead of waiting for it to arrive on the mail. I just reread The Gathering Storm just to make sure I had all the details fresh in my mind. It didn't stop me from checking Old Nan's spoilered post and I only have myself to blame for learning something about ToM that I didn't really want to find out. Spoilers are SO hard to resist in this thread. I didn't click on the big Asmodean reveal. It's not nagging me in the way it did back then and I really can't remember who I thought did it. I'll find out in a couple of weeks when I read the book, I think it's going to be more fan that way.

[Commodore]

Now, TOM copies are turning up in bookstores...

Really? More than a week in advance? I may have to start calling around town. I doubt the big chains would risk it.

[pat5150]

Walmart and stores like that don't give a damn, you know. The boxes arrive and they put the stock on the shelves within 24 hours.

Bookstore chains will show restrain, unless one of the big players cheat and then everyone goes all out.

Patrick

[Lightning Lord]

I found out I have to wait two weeks after the US release for the book to be in the English bookstore here. Pancake. And I can't do a reread of tGS while I wait because I lent it to a friend here about...10 months ago and never got it back. With mass-market paperbacks, that's not so big a deal. Hardcover though? :tantrum:

[End of Disc One]

Really? More than a week in advance? I may have to start calling around town. I doubt the big chains would risk it.

I think I've only seen one report of the book being out, and it was at the JFK airport.

[Commodore]

Walmart and stores like that don't give a damn, you know. The boxes arrive and they put the stock on the shelves within 24 hours.

With video games at Wal-Mart the register won't let them sell before the release date. Not sure how it works with books.

[Gertrude]

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I have a question. Why do people think that Egwene wants to control Rand? I've never gotten that impression. Sure, she thinks he needs guidance, but isn't she kind of right? Rand has many people around him helping to guide him - the Aiel, Nyneave, Bashere, etc. You could call it councel if you like, but it amounts to much the same thing. I know Egwene always thinks she knows best, but I honestly never got the impression that she thinks he needed strict controling, Does it just come down to seeing her actions in a different light depending on whether you like her or not? Did I miss somewhere that she realy does think he needs a hand controling him? Or are we just arguing semantics and interpreting 'guidance' as either control or councel and never realize that we aren't using the same definition?

[David Selig]

Egwene still thinks Rand is not that competent and can't do much without a woman guiding him, which is how she thinks of all men basically. Despite Rand's many achievement she very rarely gave him any credit. To what extend this guiding should be taken is ambiguous, but given that Egwene almost always thinks she knows best, that the Aes Sedai way is the right way and that the whole world should be lead by the White Tower, I'd say she wants to have a big part in deciding Rand's course of action and thinks it's her due.

Here's a typical example of her way of thinking about Rand:

ACOS, Chapter "Unseen Eyes"

"Of course, they only wanted to direct the Car'a'carn in a way that was best for the Aiel, yet those sisters wanted to direct the Dragon Reborn toward what was best for the world, as they saw it. She did not spare herself. Helping Rand, keeping him from putting himself at odds with Aes Sedai beyond recovery, those meant guiding him too. _Only, I'm right_, she reminded herself. Whatever I do is as much for his own good as for anybody else's_. _None of the others ever think about what's right for him_."

Basically she wants to guide him for his own good since she knows better than anyone else, including himself, what's best for him. Which is a bit arrogant, to say the least. I know people will say she has good intentions, but the saying applies - the road to hell...

She certainly demonstrates a low opinion of Rand's ability to manage his affairs on his own quite a few times. A typical example:

Egwene would not put it past her [Alanna] to find a way into Rand's bed; he would be clay in the hands of a woman like her."

Of course he will, this woolheaded fool needs the mighty Egwene to do his thinking for him and keep him apart from dangerous women who will twist him around their little fingers... :bang:

Anyway, I am sorry to break the positive mood of the thread, but I just have to get this off my chest. I am doing a partial reread in preparation for ToM. Started with TDR and TSR and then jumped to KoD, which I am close to finishing now. Earlier two novels are as good as a I remembered them, gripping reads from start to finish. The difference between them and KoD is blatant. What most strike me is the huge increase in attention towards the most minor of characters. Just in the Prologue of KoD there's probably more Aes Sedai mentioned by name and described in detail than in the whole first 4 books. Half of those play no role at all in the plot, appear once and are never seen again yet they get a detailed description of the way they look, which country they are from and last but not least, what exactly they are wearing. This wasn't the case in the irst books. Sure, RJ liked describing some minor characters too much from the start (innkeepeers especially), but the size of the named cast was kept reasonable given the scope of the series. IIRC, there's only about 10 named Aes Sedai in the first 3-4 books and each was distinctive. Now we get more than that every 10 pages in any tower rebellion related chapter, and half of them have no real role in the plot.

It's not just the Aes Sedai - it applies to all kinds of minor characters who play no role in the plot yet get mentioned and described in detail. It's really annoying and bloats the book unnecessary. The good stuff is almost buried under all the pages about the embroidery on the shawl of yet another minor Aes Sedai or how Elayne is dealing with her maids. It just bugs me that really major events are over too quickly or even happen offscreen (the murder of the Seanchan Empress for example) yet we get hundreds of pages of boring minutiae. We don't see how exactly Semirhage was captured after she fireballed Rand either.

KoD could've been a really solid book with a lot more editing and cutting out half of the minor characters and many of the descriptions (there still would be the problems with the idiotic actions or inactions of many of the characters to make the plot work, but let's not get into that now), but now it's mediocre. Better than CoT and probably WH and PoD too, but this is not much of an achievement. It's miles away from Jordan's top stuff - reading TSR and KoD back to back really shows how much the series declined over the years.

OK, rant over. You can proceed with the positive mood. ;)

[Old Nan]

I thought the 20-character cast was one of the weakest points of the early books, and one of the reasons the first three are my very least favorite of the series (aside from the Perrin plot). It's a book, not a play; live a little. There's no reason to have the characters performing political machinations do so against a canvas of static or nonexistent competitors; that's why Egwene's story arc in TGS reeks of Mary Suedom.

The accelerating increase in supporting cast happened in LOC, anyway, which most people seem to think is one of the best books Jordan wrote; TFOH introduced approximately six characters who will have POVs and twenty characters who contribute to the plot, while LOC introduced fifteen and fifty-four, respectively (by my admittedly arbitrary counting).

KOD is surely one of the best three books of the series.

[Caligula_K]

I never understood why people loved KoD so much. Sure, it's better than Path of Daggers and Crossroads of Twilight, but that's not saying much. The majority of the book is Elayne's plotline, which is just unpleasant to read. As David says, too much time is spent on minor characters who have no impact on the plot. And yes, plotlines are resolved, but they're not resolved well. I was so happy that Perrin finally rescued Faile, but Jordan's fifteen page battle is extremely anti-climactic after four books of buildup. The same for the scene where Rand loses his hand, which was over before I knew it. Too much of the book focuses on the wrong things.

IMO, Gathering Storm was a much better book- not perfect or anything, but the pacing was much more even, more happened, and we actually focused on interesting characters (including Rand, who's, you know, the protagonist) for a change. Hopefully Towers of Midnight will continue the positive trend.

[Old Nan]

I suppose it depends on which characters you consider "interesting"; I love Mat and Tuon's story, and find Elayne's plotline interesting, Rand's dull as dirt – almost as much so as Perrin's, and Egwene has been nails on a chalkboard to me all series long. (Though, you exaggerate when you say a "majority" of KOD was Elayne's: Mat/Tuon had 12 chapters; Elayne had 9; Perrin/Faile had 7; Egwene and the Aes Sedai 6; Rand 5; and the Forsaken and the Sea Folk one apiece.)

TGS was thematically focused, which you evidently like, but I loathe. Sanderson's style was just the cherry on top.

I've just finished LOC on my reread and it's not quite as good as I'd remembered. So far I'd rank it third, behind TSR and TFOH, and I suspect it will be bumped to fourth once I get to KOD.

[End of Disc One]

How anyone can find Rand to be one of the more boring characters just blows my mind. His chapters are often the only ones that deal with what is actually important to the story, and singlehandedly saved books 8 and 9 from being horrible.

[Grogsmash]

I suppose it depends on which characters you consider "interesting"; I love Mat and Tuon's story, and find Elayne's plotline interesting,

Hurm, I remember being very unimpressed with the Mat/Tuon story yet I consistently see people saying how much they love it. Might have to reread it and see if I just read it in a negative mood the first time.

[Old Nan]

the only ones that deal with what is actually important to the story

I don't see how this is not a contradiction in terms? What the story focuses on is what the story is, and WOT is clearly not just the story of Rand saving/destroying the world.

singlehandedly saved books 8 and 9 from being horrible.

Rand's storyline in books 8 and 9 was the campaign against the Seanchan and then that awful, awful sequence in Far Madding. Yeah, "With the Choedan Kal" was nifty, and Rand's storyline was better than most of the Perrin/Faile/Masema drag, but the Ebou Dar sequence was consistently good.

[kuenjato]

I thought the 20-character cast was one of the weakest points of the early books, and one of the reasons the first three are my very least favorite of the series (aside from the Perrin plot). It's a book, not a play; live a little. There's no reason to have the characters performing political machinations do so against a canvas of static or nonexistent competitors; that's why Egwene's story arc in TGS reeks of Mary Suedom.

The accelerating increase in supporting cast happened in LOC, anyway, which most people seem to think is one of the best books Jordan wrote; TFOH introduced approximately six characters who will have POVs and twenty characters who contribute to the plot, while LOC introduced fifteen and fifty-four, respectively (by my admittedly arbitrary counting).

KOD is surely one of the best three books of the series.

People love LOC because it has arguably the best climax of the series. They tend to forget the 350,000 words of bloat it took to get there.

I agree with Selig. KoD was about half decent, half the same-old horsepuckey. KoD is surely ranked 8th or 9th in overall quality.

Old Nan, you are one of the few on the net (whose august company includes OsRavan and some of those at Dragonmount) who prefer the latter books to the earlier. Everything you like about WoT I either despise or tolerate, and vice versa.

[End of Disc One]

People love LOC because it has arguably the best climax of the series. They tend to forget the 350,000 words of bloat it took to get there.

I disagree here. I enjoyed most all of LoC, and it probably had more important developments than any other book in the series. I also liked how it switched between PoVs pretty often, instead of spending 100+ pages with one character at a time. I really don't find LoC to be bloated.