Towers of Midnight II

[Commodore]

I remember for the last book someone created a nice pdf that updated everyone's status in the realm. I'm looking for something similar for this book. The wikipedia summary for TGS only tells you what happened in that book, not everyone else's status.

[Mack Kilimaro]

To me it seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer. The reason I won't tell people though is that I am enjoying watching them squirm entirely too much.

Who killed Asmodean was basically the origin of the RAFO acronym, wasn't it?

When I started looking at WoT fan stuff online and came across that quote from RJ, that kind of annoyed me. It's one thing to say the clues are there for you to figure it out if you look, but saying stuff like "even the most casual observer", that's just condescending and obnoxious and probably more than a bit self-absorbed. Not that it really matters any more.

I did full re-reads before books 9-12 each came out, because I had nothing better to do, and I don't see what's in there that you can say definitively that it's anyone. Looking at all kinds of options and making an educated guess, sure. I like Graendal for basically the same reason as Shryke, a vague memory of some detailed fan breakdown and she made the most sense. But RJ saying that's obvious... come on. No way.

Pretty excited for Towers of Midnight. If it's on par with TGS, I'll be happy. Getting the occasional "Hey, this isn't RJ!" moment is better than having never found out how it ended.

[fionwe1987]

I never got why people were so obsessed with the Asmodean murder anyway. It certainly is an internet thing, similar to the "Do Balrogs have wings?" debate in LotR. I'm totally unsurprised RJ didn't give a damn that a few thousand fanatics on the web were obsessed with the murder of a Foresaken.

That said, I do hope the reveal has some punch. A throwaway line from Graendal (who is indeed an extremely obvious suspect) would just be anticlimactic. I want something I can use to rub the faces of Slayer or Lanfear supporters.

[Gertrude]

I'm trying to think back and remember who I thought did it. I may have thought it was Lanfear, but I honestly don't even remember if that makes any sense with timelines and known locations. Eh, sure. I'll go on record with Lanfear. Why not? Unless I have totally misremembered the sequence of events (completely possible) and she and Moiraine had fallen through the rings already.

I'm not sure what kind of punch the revelation can make, other than the waves of triumph and despair through the net. It's obviously not critical to any plotline since he felt free to withhold it for personal amusement. It seems like he thought he didn't have to reveal it (because it was obvious) and maybe didn't plan to until it became such a hot topic of debate?

[fionwe1987]

I'm trying to think back and remember who I thought did it. I may have thought it was Lanfear, but I honestly don't even remember if that makes any sense with timelines and known locations. Eh, sure. I'll go on record with Lanfear. Why not? Unless I have totally misremembered the sequence of events (completely possible) and she and Moiraine had fallen through the rings already.

She was already through the Doorway before Asmodean died. Confusingly, this has not been reason enough to quash this theory.

I'm not sure what kind of punch the revelation can make, other than the waves of triumph and despair through the net. It's obviously not critical to any plotline since he felt free to withhold it for personal amusement. It seems like he thought he didn't have to reveal it (because it was obvious) and maybe didn't plan to until it became such a hot topic of debate?

Punch in the sense of the revelation being made with a flourish. I know it is wholly pointless to the plot, so it won't change anything in the story. But a cool way of revealing it will at least be a sop to the people who spent so long coming up with impossibly convoluted reasons for why the murderer was someone other than Graendal.

[Shryke]

I don't see what's condescending about this comments. He's basically good-naturedly laughing and shaking his head at some people's obsession with a point he doesn't even consider relevant. It's like the "Do Balrogs have wings?" debate.

[Gertrude]

It's the implication that he's a bit smarter than your average bear. All the clues are there (supposedly) so the fans are a bit thick not to get it. He probably didn't mean it that way and in context or in person, I might not see that comment in the same way. All I have is the words themselves and that's my read on it. Different than yours obviously. The comments don't enrage me or anything, just an eyeroll level annoyance.

So Lanfear is out of the running - being in Aelfinn territory is enough to squash that for me. I am officially clueless again and not much caring. However it is revealed, I just hope it's organic and not shoehorned in because it's on a checklist.

[Old Nan]

Well, except Balrogs clearly do not have wings. That is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader.

As Commodore's request goes, it is somewhat more difficult to keep track of the characters because Sanderson chose to divide the plots more so than Jordan did for the sake of TGS's theme, but I'll give it a shot (using Steve Cooper's timeline). Spoilers of released TOM content are included.

• Rand al'Thor is probably at day 803 as of TOM-1. He is walking down Dragonmount to Tar Valon after resolving an existential crisis (and getting rid of the 'Lews Therin' construct his mind had created to cope with his memories of his past life, now properly integrated) in TGS-50.
• Egwene al'Vere and the Aes Sedai are at day 802 as of TGS-Epilogue. Elaida's loyalists and the Salidar faction united under her leadership as Amyrlin Seat in TGS-46, with Silviana Brehon (Red, former Mistress of Novices) as her Keeper. Sheriam Bayanar and a number of Black Ajah sisters were exposed through systematic testing with the Oath Rod and executed, but about eighty of them who could Travel escaped, including Alviarin Freidhen. Mesaana very likely remains in the Tower in disguise. Gawyn Trakand, Siuan Sanche, and Gareth Bryne are also in the Tower.
• Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan and several dozen more Aes Sedai were taken as damane in the Seanchan raid on the White Tower on the night of day 800 in TGS-41. Elaida, at the least, knows how to Travel. The raiders were dispatched on day 794 from Ebou Dar by Tuon, Empress of Seanchan, in TGS-36, after talks between Rand and Tuon in Falme failed on day 789.
• Nynaeve al'Meara, Cadsuane Melaidhrin, and Min Farshaw, along with the rest of Rand's entourage, are at day 801 as of TGS-48. They remain in the Stone of Tear after Cadsuane's attempt to moderate Rand's temper by reuniting him with (a coached) Tam al'Thor backfired, driving him into the fury that prompted TGS-50. It is probable that the Wise Ones Sorilea, Amys, and the others in Rand's company in Arad Doman in TGS also came to Tear, along with a large but undefined number of Aiel and Davram Bashere's horse, who have abandoned that failed state. Tear is now governed by a king, Darlin Sisnera, instead of a council of High Lords; the steward of Cairhien, Dobraine Taborwin, is also present, as the armies of Rand's vassal states muster.
• Rodel Ituralde and his force of 50,000 Domani and 100 Asha'man, along with Aiel, patrol the Blightborder as of day 798, when a messenger comes to Bashere in TGS-42. Whether Logain Ablar is with Ituralde, still with Rand's entourage, or elsewhere is unclear.
• The 200,000 man Borderlander army, under the personal command of the four reigning monarchs of the Borderlands and Agelmar Jagad, is encamped at Far Madding as of day 801 in TGS-44. The Borderlander monarchs entered a pact to "do what needed to be done. Whatever the price." and sent Hurin to invite Rand to meet them without access to the One Power, which Rand refused.
• Graendal escaped from Natrin's Barrow just before it was balefired by Rand on day 790 (TGS-37, TOM-Prologue). She sacrificed the lives of Aran'gar and Delana Mosalaine to evade Rand's trap.
• Aviendha was last seen on day 780, Traveling to Cold Rocks Hold for a 12-day journey afoot to Rhuidean for full investiture as a Wise One, in TGS-26.
• Perrin Aybara, Faile Bashere, Alliandre of Ghealdan, Berelain of Mayene, Morgase Trakand, and more than 100,000 refugees, evacuated from the Shaido camp at Malden, are on the Jehannah Road within Ghealdan in TOM-2 sometime between days 776-780. Tam al'Thor is with them, though he will be taken from the Jehannah Road to Tear on day 801 by Cadsuane in TGS-47.
• Galad Damodred is along the Ghealdan-Altara border at approximately the same time in TOM-2. He is Lord Captain Commander of a roughly 15,000 man Whitecloak/rebel-Amadician army after the united Lords Captain killed Rhadam Asunawa and knelt to him. He and Perrin will be together on day 784 to satisfy Rand's color-vision in TGS-31. Jaret Byar and Dain Bornhald are with him.
• Mat Cauthon, Thom Merrilin, Aludra, Egeanin and Domon, and the Band of the Red Hand have been at Caemlyn since day 773 in TGS-36, and remain there as of at least three days later in TOM-8, and 11 days later as of Rand's vision in TGS-31.
• Mazrim Taim (and at least 100 Darkfriend Asha'man) was last seen on day 769 in KOD-Epilogue, when he greeted Pevara Tazanovni and the delegation from the Red Ajah hoping to bond Asha'man. No word has been heard from the Salidar delegation under Myrelle Berengari, ordered to Travel to the Black Tower some time after day 746 in KOD-23, as of day 801 in TGS-45.
• Elayne Trakand was acclaimed Queen of Andor on day 758 in KOD-35, when the undecided Houses submitted to her following her defeat of Arymilla Marne. Birgitte is Captain-General of the Queen's Guards.
• Lan Mandragoran was last definitively timed at day 745 in KOD-20, when Nynaeve took him to the extreme west end of the Borderlands. He has raised the Golden Crane of Malkier as he travels toward Tarwin's Gap in the far-eastern Borderlands. He is still in Saldaea when the first of his army arrives from Kandor in TOM-Prologue.

I'm probably missing somebody important. Of the Forsaken, Moridin [ishamael], Graendal, Demandred, Cyndane [Lanfear], Mesaana, and Moghedien remain alive.

[Poobah]

That's a pretty impressive catchup aid.

[Slick Mongoose]

Yeah, good work, Old Nan.

See that positivity? :wideeyed:

[Maithanet]

She was already through the Doorway before Asmodean died. Confusingly, this has not been reason enough to quash this theory.

I think the Lanfear support comes mostly from the fact that if she were around, she would be the obvious, obvious suspect. She is erratic, likes killing, is angry at Rand, has already betrayed Asmodean once, could get there, has the means to do it, has the ability to hide herself from other channelers, and the list goes on. Really, if it weren't for falling through the rings, she would easily qualify for Jordan's "intuitively obvious" criteria.

So people start making pretty far fetched defenses that maybe she made a deal with the Finns to get back at Asmodean. It seems pretty convoluted, I admit, but hey, everybody is grasping at straws when it comes to these theories.

I personally have never cared too much who killed Asmodean either. When I first read the series, I didn't even really think about it until I started going online and checking all the work people went to trying to figure it out. Having read the extensive WOTFAQ article, I admit I am somewhat curious, but not enough to really take a stand on it. Graendal seems likely, but Lanfear would be more fun, in my opinion. Maybe it's just because I like Lanfear. What a crazy bitch.

[MaesterLuwin]

Nice summary, Old Nan. I forgot that Logain was all but absent (or possibly completely absent?) from TGS. He's one of the second-tier characters that interests me, mainly because we're still not sure what makes him tick. At first I thought his role in the series was just as a way to show what could happen to Rand (stilled and suicidal), but ever since Min's "future glory" revelation around Book 4, I've been very intrigued by where his plot is going. He seems to be anti-Taim, but that doesn't make him necessarily a good guy. My own pet theory is that he's somehow going to take credit for victory at the Last Battle, either after Rand dies or appears to be dead. But I suppose he could simply be the new M'Hael of the Black Tower, and on par with Egwene.

I guess my point is that I hope we see what he's up to in ToM. He was helping the Sea Folk Travel, last I remember, but maybe he got caught up in whatever events in the Black Tower have made Pevara and Myrelle disappear?

[Commodore]

Well, except Balrogs clearly do not have wings. That is intuitively obvious to the most casual reader.

As Commodore's request goes, it is somewhat more difficult to keep track of the characters because Sanderson chose to divide the plots more so than Jordan did for the sake of TGS's theme, but I'll give it a shot (using Steve Cooper's timeline). Spoilers of released TOM content are included.

• Rand al'Thor is probably at day 803 as of TOM-1. He is walking down Dragonmount to Tar Valon after resolving an existential crisis (and getting rid of the 'Lews Therin' construct his mind had created to cope with his memories of his past life, now properly integrated) in TGS-50.
• Egwene al'Vere and the Aes Sedai are at day 802 as of TGS-Epilogue. Elaida's loyalists and the Salidar faction united under her leadership as Amyrlin Seat in TGS-46, with Silviana Brehon (Red, former Mistress of Novices) as her Keeper. Sheriam Bayanar and a number of Black Ajah sisters were exposed through systematic testing with the Oath Rod and executed, but about eighty of them who could Travel escaped, including Alviarin Freidhen. Mesaana very likely remains in the Tower in disguise. Gawyn Trakand, Siuan Sanche, and Gareth Bryne are also in the Tower.
• Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan and several dozen more Aes Sedai were taken as damane in the Seanchan raid on the White Tower on the night of day 800 in TGS-41. Elaida, at the least, knows how to Travel. The raiders were dispatched on day 794 from Ebou Dar by Tuon, Empress of Seanchan, in TGS-36, after talks between Rand and Tuon in Falme failed on day 789.
• Nynaeve al'Meara, Cadsuane Melaidhrin, and Min Farshaw, along with the rest of Rand's entourage, are at day 801 as of TGS-48. They remain in the Stone of Tear after Cadsuane's attempt to moderate Rand's temper by reuniting him with (a coached) Tam al'Thor backfired, driving him into the fury that prompted TGS-50. It is probable that the Wise Ones Sorilea, Amys, and the others in Rand's company in Arad Doman in TGS also came to Tear, along with a large but undefined number of Aiel and Davram Bashere's horse, who have abandoned that failed state. Tear is now governed by a king, Darlin Sisnera, instead of a council of High Lords; the steward of Cairhien, Dobraine Taborwin, is also present, as the armies of Rand's vassal states muster.
• Rodel Ituralde and his force of 50,000 Domani and 100 Asha'man, along with Aiel, patrol the Blightborder as of day 798, when a messenger comes to Bashere in TGS-42. Whether Logain Ablar is with Ituralde, still with Rand's entourage, or elsewhere is unclear.
• The 200,000 man Borderlander army, under the personal command of the four reigning monarchs of the Borderlands and Agelmar Jagad, is encamped at Far Madding as of day 801 in TGS-44. The Borderlander monarchs entered a pact to "do what needed to be done. Whatever the price." and sent Hurin to invite Rand to meet them without access to the One Power, which Rand refused.
• Graendal escaped from Natrin's Barrow just before it was balefired by Rand on day 790 (TGS-37, TOM-Prologue). She sacrificed the lives of Aran'gar and Delana Mosalaine to evade Rand's trap.
• Aviendha was last seen on day 780, Traveling to Cold Rocks Hold for a 12-day journey afoot to Rhuidean for full investiture as a Wise One, in TGS-26.
• Perrin Aybara, Faile Bashere, Alliandre of Ghealdan, Berelain of Mayene, Morgase Trakand, and more than 100,000 refugees, evacuated from the Shaido camp at Malden, are on the Jehannah Road within Ghealdan in TOM-2 sometime between days 776-780. Tam al'Thor is with them, though he will be taken from the Jehannah Road to Tear on day 801 by Cadsuane in TGS-47.
• Galad Damodred is along the Ghealdan-Altara border at approximately the same time in TOM-2. He is Lord Captain Commander of a roughly 15,000 man Whitecloak/rebel-Amadician army after the united Lords Captain killed Rhadam Asunawa and knelt to him. He and Perrin will be together on day 784 to satisfy Rand's color-vision in TGS-31. Jaret Byar and Dain Bornhald are with him.
• Mat Cauthon, Thom Merrilin, Aludra, Egeanin and Domon, and the Band of the Red Hand have been at Caemlyn since day 773 in TGS-36, and remain there as of at least three days later in TOM-8, and 11 days later as of Rand's vision in TGS-31.
• Mazrim Taim (and at least 100 Darkfriend Asha'man) was last seen on day 769 in KOD-Epilogue, when he greeted Pevara Tazanovni and the delegation from the Red Ajah hoping to bond Asha'man. No word has been heard from the Salidar delegation under Myrelle Berengari, ordered to Travel to the Black Tower some time after day 746 in KOD-23, as of day 801 in TGS-45.
• Elayne Trakand was acclaimed Queen of Andor on day 758 in KOD-35, when the undecided Houses submitted to her following her defeat of Arymilla Marne. Birgitte is Captain-General of the Queen's Guards.
• Lan Mandragoran was last definitively timed at day 745 in KOD-20, when Nynaeve took him to the extreme west end of the Borderlands. He has raised the Golden Crane of Malkier as he travels toward Tarwin's Gap in the far-eastern Borderlands. He is still in Saldaea when the first of his army arrives from Kandor in TOM-Prologue.

I'm probably missing somebody important. Of the Forsaken, Moridin [ishamael], Graendal, Demandred, Cyndane [Lanfear], Mesaana, and Moghedien remain alive.

Awesome, exactly what I was looking for!

[Arthmail]

I don't see what's condescending about this comments. He's basically good-naturedly laughing and shaking his head at some people's obsession with a point he doesn't even consider relevant. It's like the "Do Balrogs have wings?" debate.

I think there is a bit of a difference between a description of something, or a discrepancy thereof, and the fate of a middle to major player in a book series. It was left as a big mystery, and its a bit of a shithead cop out not to reveal who it was. If it wasn't important, it should not have been in the books.

[Maithanet]

I think there is a bit of a difference between a description of something, or a discrepancy thereof, and the fate of a middle to major player in a book series. It was left as a big mystery, and its a bit of a shithead cop out not to reveal who it was. If it wasn't important, it should not have been in the books.

Well, RJ is free to do whatever he wants. Some things are going to be left unanswered no matter what, and this isn't central to the story. We still don't know who sent Ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion, either. While I'm still curious about it, I think it's pretty likely we'll never know (even assuming the series gets finished). I am ok with that.

[Old Nan]

If Slayer had killed Asmodean, from whom he received the order would be a minor curiosity. If Asmodean walked down the hall and 'death took him', or his corpse were found without explanation, a somewhat bigger curiosity. But "You! No!" turns it into a much more concrete kind of game.

It doesn't burn at me, but certainly I think it should be revealed after that kind of tease.

[Rhom]

I think there is a bit of a difference between a description of something, or a discrepancy thereof, and the fate of a middle to major player in a book series. It was left as a big mystery, and its a bit of a shithead cop out not to reveal who it was. If it wasn't important, it should not have been in the books.

Orrrrr... if its not important and you feel the answer should be obvious; just tell your fans!!! :tantrum:

[fionwe1987]

Someone in RAFO got the book early and revealed the killer in a spoiler thread. Here's what was said:

Spoiler

***Graendal did it***** If you don't believe me, confirm it with that guy that already reviewed the book. Graendal did it, but I think you will be amazed by how deep her plot thread actually goes. I don't really care to spoiler anything, so please don't ask. I hate being a spoiler, but I couldn't resist on this one.

For those who don't want a spoiler... it at least looks like we get the reveal with a bang. Which is satisfying, I suppose.

[Slick Mongoose]

Must.... resist.... spoiler.....

[kcf]

Someone in RAFO got the book early and revealed the killer in a spoiler thread. Here's what was said:

Spoiler

***Graendal did it***** If you don't believe me, confirm it with that guy that already reviewed the book. Graendal did it, but I think you will be amazed by how deep her plot thread actually goes. I don't really care to spoiler anything, so please don't ask. I hate being a spoiler, but I couldn't resist on this one.

For those who don't want a spoiler... it at least looks like we get the reveal with a bang. Which is satisfying, I suppose.

Advance spoilers like this are always iffy at best. Who revealed it? Are they trustworthy? I've seen several releases of WOT now and each one has spoilers that come out early. And only about 10% of those spoilers turn out to be true.