Eye of the World

[Old Nan]

No, that they can fit into the space isn't unbelievable, but Jordan really sold us in TSR/TFOH on how much of a desert the Waste is. If it were a steppe or a really dry prairie I can buy it sustaining that great a population, but it sounds like the Sahara, which I don't believe was able to sustain that large a population away from the rivers and coasts (of which the Waste evidently has none) until the 20th century. I could be wrong about that.

[fionwe1987]

There are certain reasons why the Aiel are possible, though.

1) The Aiel baby weave means that they get foetal healing and support, which is likely why they are able to maintain such great height.

2) The Dreamwalkers constantly hunt for water sources that are too deep to be normally found, using Need in tel'aran'rhiod. This means the septs can constantly find water, and it is likely the WO use the One Power to raise the water to ground level, or somehow make it more accessible.

While both these qualify as "wizard did it", at least it is a nice in story integration of magic to society and culture. Somewhat...

[nickg]

Every created world runs into these issues. As long as they don't detract from the story itself I have no problem at all with them. Has to be nearly impossible to have worldbuilding without something remotely close to "a wizard did it ".

[Spring Bass]

True, but the Trolloc one always bothered me because we get so little (if any) mention about how such gigantic numbers of Trollocs are supported in the Blight before they come south. Even assuming they can eat literally anything that lives, including Blight-infested stuff (and they seem to be carnivorous most of the time), they're 10-feet tall, probably warm-blooded, heavily muscular beasts, meaning that they consume a huge amount of food per capita, and would probably strip the Blight bare without widespread, high-intensity farming for food. Moreover, not all of the Blight is simply "corrupted plants" - a large chunk of it is the nearly lifeless Blasted Lands.

At least Tolkien threw a brief mention in LOTR that the armies of Sauron were being fed from vast slave plantations surrounding Lake Nurnen, which were highly productive due to the volcanic ash-enriched soil.

[DrownedCrow]

Even the estimate of a few million Aiel depends on an extraordinarily high level of military participation. In reality, I'd think the population would have to be an order of magnitude higher.

[Lightning Lord]

Even the estimate of a few million Aiel depends on an extraordinarily high level of military participation. In reality, I'd think the population would have to be an order of magnitude higher.

But they are an extraordinarily militaristic/warrior culture. They are always presented as such.

[DrownedCrow]

But they are an extraordinarily militaristic/warrior culture. They are always presented as such.

Yes, but presumably someone has to do all the jobs required to support all those professional soldiers. I don't know of any pre-industrial (or even post-industrial) society that could afford to have such a high percentage of their population dedicated to warfare. And most of those societies weren't living in a barren wasteland.

[Edward the Great]

The more professional your army, the less militarized your society can be. That's just how it works.

[Old Nan]

The Aiel aren't soldiers, they're warriors. It's a different dynamic, and presumably under normal circumstances they wouldn't all be involved in warfare full-time. They've got herds of cattle to graze, don't you know.

Oh, and I forgot the unknown but probably huge number of gai'shain in that estimate.

[DrownedCrow]

The Aiel aren't soldiers, they're warriors. It's a different dynamic, and presumably under normal circumstances they wouldn't all be involved in warfare full-time. They've got herds of cattle to graze, don't you know.

I don't remember for sure whether the Aiel warriors perform other duties as well although I was under the impression that they were professionals. If they are amateurs then it makes it even harder to explain how the Aiel are so amazingly good at warfare. The only historical force with that kind of dominance (in the absence of any real technological advantage) would be the Spartans and they did nothing but train for battle.

[Edward the Great]

I don't remember for sure whether the Aiel warriors perform other duties as well although I was under the impression that they were professionals. If they are amateurs then it makes it even harder to explain how the Aiel are so amazingly good at warfare. The only historical force with that kind of dominance (in the absence of any real technological advantage) would be the Spartans and they did nothing but train for battle.

And they were so busy butt fucking each other that their population shrank with time.

[fionwe1987]

I don't remember for sure whether the Aiel warriors perform other duties as well although I was under the impression that they were professionals. If they are amateurs then it makes it even harder to explain how the Aiel are so amazingly good at warfare. The only historical force with that kind of dominance (in the absence of any real technological advantage) would be the Spartans and they did nothing but train for battle.

All Aiel men except Blacksmiths train with spears. And they have to use their skills a lot since the clans keep fighting.

[MightilyOats]

The idea is that they're always at war, at all times with each other and anyone else who wants a fight.

That's EVERYONE.

So if the cities get invaded, which I'm sure they do and all the time, then even the common folk walking the street are able to join in.

It makes no sense then, how their population is so large or how a people is able to support such full-blown and constant warfare, but you don't seem to be arguing about THAT, which is the REAL problem with all of this at the end of the day (well, after how the fuck does their land support such numbers since it's so desolate) but ANYWAYS

[fionwe1987]

It makes no sense then, how their population is so large or how a people is able to support such full-blown and constant warfare,

They aren't full blown wars. It is more like constant low level warfare, raiding and counter-raiding. And the highest honor is gained by capturing prisoners without injuring them, and the least by killing an enemy.

[MightilyOats]

How is constant war not fullblown war?

Wow.

[Lightning Lord]

How is constant war not fullblown war?

Wow.

It is mostly raiding and such. Only clans with blood-feuds would go to all-out full-blown war and there aren't that many blood-feuds. Even those aren't always at war.

[Shryke]

I don't remember for sure whether the Aiel warriors perform other duties as well although I was under the impression that they were professionals. If they are amateurs then it makes it even harder to explain how the Aiel are so amazingly good at warfare. The only historical force with that kind of dominance (in the absence of any real technological advantage) would be the Spartans and they did nothing but train for battle.

Spartans would probably be a fairly close analogy. Just replace "slaves" with "Gai'shan".

[DrownedCrow]

Spartans would probably be a fairly close analogy. Just replace "slaves" with "Gai'shan".

The spartans were supposed to have about 10 slaves for every citizen. So, again, the Aiel population would have to be an order of magnitude higher than the previous estimates.

[Old Nan]

More obviously, the Spartans were city people.

[Shryke]

The spartans were supposed to have about 10 slaves for every citizen. So, again, the Aiel population would have to be an order of magnitude higher than the previous estimates.

The Aiel aren't quite as "nothing but war" as the Spartans though and also don't live in large cities. I said "fairly close analogy" not "exactly like". They are set up as a culture that essentially exists to perpetuate their warriors. But not near as extreme as Spartans.