Eye of the World

[Lightning Lord]

They had like floating fucking cities and instant teleportation. Age of Legends was crazy magic/sci-fi future.

And yeah, the Two Rivers has gone more backwater and has slid backwards about as much as most of the rest of the world, but it hasn't descended THAT low and it's still in contact with the outside world fairly regularly.

This is actually one thing that was terrible noteworthy from the Shire Two Rivers. They have virtually no contact with the outside world. They describe almost never hearing about wars until after they're over. Small-time peddlers come through and provide 100% of their outside goods (anything that isn't wool or tabac). And yet everyone we meet is literate and educated. There's no mention of school, so every family has kept that tradition alive for centuries. Odd, that, with so few books in the villages (Rand describes the inn's "library" as having, what, two dozen books?)

Also, how the hell does an innkeeper stay in business and flourish when he only gets a couple of guests for a few months out of the year? From beer sales exclusively? I guess having no staff to pay helps?

[Edward the Great]

This is actually one thing that was terrible noteworthy from the Shire Two Rivers.

The shire seams like a more civilized place in comparison. Elves and dwarves traveled along the east-west road and stopped in the Shire frequently. Bilbo had his own personal library. Saruman's half-orcs never had the strength to conquer the most densely populated part of the Shire, which had an organized militia.

And 5 of the most important people in Robert Jordan's world come from the sheep town known as the Two Rivers.

[Lightning Lord]

The shire seams like a more civilized place in comparison.

I know. I was just putting that in because of the initial oft-discussed similarity. One that didn't bother me, hater that I am. :)

[Shryke]

And 5 of the most important people in Robert Jordan's world come from the sheep town known as the Two Rivers.

That's the Pattern for ya.

This is actually one thing that was terrible noteworthy from the Shire Two Rivers. They have virtually no contact with the outside world. They describe almost never hearing about wars until after they're over. Small-time peddlers come through and provide 100% of their outside goods (anything that isn't wool or tabac). And yet everyone we meet is literate and educated. There's no mention of school, so every family has kept that tradition alive for centuries. Odd, that, with so few books in the villages (Rand describes the inn's "library" as having, what, two dozen books?)

Also, how the hell does an innkeeper stay in business and flourish when he only gets a couple of guests for a few months out of the year? From beer sales exclusively? I guess having no staff to pay helps?

It's described as backwater, not completely isolated or uncivilized. They get news late because it's all second hand and they are out of the way so people only show up when they have to. They get peddlers at least a few times a year and merchant trains through at least once a year for shearing and harvest or what have you. I swear they have some form of education going on though.

And yeah, I kind of assumed the inn was more of a pub and survived mostly on selling meals and drinks while providing a place to rest for the occasional visitor.

[Lightning Lord]

I don't remember any mention of teachers or schools. Not everything needs to be shown of course, but that seems like a really obvious part of a village.

This brings up a question for the series in general.

tSR spoiler (cause this is EotW thread)

Didn't it seem like in tSR, there were waaaayyyyy too many villagers running around? The way the place is described, these are tiny villages. But suddenly there are thousands of people cruising about capable of defending the area. Huh? I know that the outlying farms and everything, they consolidated, but still. Small village is at most about 200 people in that world, with the major cities having low/middle six figures for population.

[Old Nan]

I don't remember "thousands of people cruising around" in TSR. You'd expect that there would be a few thousand people in the entire region, but they aren't all shown. I'd guess that fewer than a thousand people were around during the battle of Emond's Field, including the entire greater Emond's Field population and the bowmen from the other two villages.

Elves and dwarves traveled along the east-west road and stopped in the Shire frequently.

That's... not at all the way I remember it.

Saruman's half-orcs never had the strength to conquer the most densely populated part of the Shire

The Shire was more densely populated than the Two Rivers, and Saruman brought back several orders of magnitude fewer orcs than Isam brought Trollocs. And one population is 4 feet tall. I'm not sure if this is a meaningful comparison, except in that they're the idyllic agricultural home communities of the protagonists.

[SpaceCoyote]

This is actually one thing that was terrible noteworthy from the Shire Two Rivers. They have virtually no contact with the outside world. They describe almost never hearing about wars until after they're over. Small-time peddlers come through and provide 100% of their outside goods (anything that isn't wool or tabac). And yet everyone we meet is literate and educated. There's no mention of school, so every family has kept that tradition alive for centuries. Odd, that, with so few books in the villages (Rand describes the inn's "library" as having, what, two dozen books?)

Also, how the hell does an innkeeper stay in business and flourish when he only gets a couple of guests for a few months out of the year? From beer sales exclusively? I guess having no staff to pay helps?

I agree, it does stretch credibility. But we kind of have to accept these things in Second-World fantasy. WOT is remarkable for the many ways it DOES play by the rules of the real world, but in-world economics is not one of Jordan's strong suits. It's not one of the strong suits of many fantasy authors, though Daniel Abraham is an exception that immediately springs to mind. I suppose most readers are (shockingly) more interested the actual narrative. As a world-building/history geek (like me) you kind of have to pick your battles.

[Lightning Lord]

I don't remember "thousands of people cruising around" in TSR. You'd expect that there would be a few thousand people in the entire region, but they aren't all shown.

In that case, several hundred people with virtually no battle experience and using weapons thrown together from farm implements held off an army of Trollocs numbering, 6,000 I think? And couple hundred Fades as well. Which scenario is more palatable?

[Lightning Lord]

I agree, it does stretch credibility. But we kind of have to accept these things in Second-World fantasy. WOT is remarkable for the many ways it DOES play by the rules of the real world, but in-world economics is not one of Jordan's strong suits. It's not one of the strong suits of many fantasy authors, though Daniel Abraham is an exception that immediately springs to mind. I suppose most readers are (shockingly) more interested the actual narrative. As a world-building/history geek (like me) you kind of have to pick your battles.

Sorry for the double.

I hope my nit-picking didn't come across too negatively. Just that in a thread about the series opener, it seems like nit-picking should happen. I still really like EotW. Small continuity of credulity issues, not too big a deal for me.

[SpaceCoyote]

Sorry for the double.

I hope my nit-picking didn't come across too negatively. Just that in a thread about the series opener, it seems like nit-picking should happen. I still really like EotW. Small continuity of credulity issues, not too big a deal for me.

Not at all. And I, like so many people here got into 'post-tolkien' fantasy through WOT, and TEOW. One of my distinct memories is of the prologue being far too confusing for my 11 year-old brain. Who was this 'Dragon'? Who's Ilyena? The Betrayer of Hope? What's the One Power? I remember finishing the prologue and thinking, "there's no way I can read another 800 pages of this." The sense of relief on opening chapter one and being immersed in something immediately familiar saved me (Ah, the Farmboy. Breath. Ah, the mysterious bad-guy watching. Breath. Ah, the village. Breath). As I get older I find myself intellectually understanding people's problems with that book, but I have such a sentimental attachment to it and to the series itself that I'll never stop loving it.

[WhiteHaven]

Just read The Great Hunt. TEotW can be described as a "prologue" I guess.

I can understand the people who say "Geez. That's some boring shit, and a Tolkien rip-off" but believe me the last chapters in TEotW are great. So is The Great Hunt. Jordan was really good at worldbuilding. Granted he can't write a good battle scene (so far) but whatever, The Wheel of Time is better then most of the stuff out there, imo.

[macaroni]

I think the reason that the Two Rivers economy does so well is the Tabac, it's famous throughout Randyland. That's how the economy stays afloat.

[Old Nan]

In that case, several hundred people with virtually no battle experience and using weapons thrown together from farm implements held off an army of Trollocs numbering, 6,000 I think? And couple hundred Fades as well. Which scenario is more palatable?

With longbows (which, as it is widely noted, are in wide use in the area, and pretty much every man has been trained in using), and the Trollocs pinned down against the Emond's Field line, it's possible (cf Agincourt). What's more incredible is that the Borderlanders don't seem to give much thought to using ranged weapons (beyond horsebows) against such physically overpowering opponents.

Of course, the TOM prologue might actually be the first time we get a Borderlander POV in a fight against Shadowspawn, and there is mention of arrows, though the situation is somewhat different.

[alguien]

Also, the Two Rivers folk had the pure, unadulterated Old Blood. That's stuff's like the equivalent of radioactive blood in the Marvel universe. One pint transfusion and you'll be spouting the Old Tongue, fighting like a badass, and probably have an awesome channeling capacity.

[Poobah]

This is true.

[Maithanet]

Also, the Two Rivers folk had the pure, unadulterated Old Blood. That's stuff's like the equivalent of radioactive blood in the Marvel universe. One pint transfusion and you'll be spouting the Old Tongue, fighting like a badass, and probably have an awesome channeling capacity.

And they had Verin and Alanna + warders fighting for them. Plus Perrin with his Destiny special move. I can see how the Two Rivers carried the day.

[Edward the Great]

That's... not at all the way I remember it.

Dwarves used the road, but not elves.

[Lightning Lord]

With longbows (which, as it is widely noted, are in wide use in the area, and pretty much every man has been trained in using), and the Trollocs pinned down against the Emond's Field line, it's possible (cf Agincourt). What's more incredible is that the Borderlanders don't seem to give much thought to using ranged weapons (beyond horsebows) against such physically overpowering opponents.

Of course, the TOM prologue might actually be the first time we get a Borderlander POV in a fight against Shadowspawn, and there is mention of arrows, though the situation is somewhat different.

Agincourt isn't a good comparison. At Agincourt, there were less than 2,000 mounted French and several thousand longbow-armed English. Trollocs run as fast as a horse over short distances and were all professional and well-armed. Most of the French troops weren't professional.

So, again, the numbers just don't make sense. This is similar to Dumai's Wells, where thirty to forty thousand Aiel with couple hundred Wise Women couldn't breach couple hundred Younglings, a couple dozen warders and Aes Sedai...but then something like 5,000 troops with Perrin...bah.

I'll accept Perrin Destiny Special Move and get on with my life. But I maintain that there are way more people in the Two Rivers than seems realistic for a forgotten backwater.

[Old Nan]

We're told repeatedly that Trollocs are very ill-disciplined in most circumstances. How many flights of arrows could the Duopotamians have gotten off before the Fades turned the Trolloc horde around and got it to charge in the opposite direction?

The same goes for Dumai's Wells; under the specific circumstances (taking the Shaido from behind; Aes Sedai who know what they're doing vs. Shaido Wise Ones who don't; Rand escaping and taking out the Aes Sedai who were maintaining the defenses; Asha'man arriving) I don't think it's contrived that some of Perrin's people would have gotten through. That all of the plot-relevant characters except Rhuarc made it inside is fishier, and certainly that all of those things happened simultaneously you have to blame the Wheel for.

[Poobah]

IIRC in the defence of Emond's Field, the AS who were there spent a lot of time and power enchanting catapult stones to turn them into massive bombs, or something like that.