Eye of the World

[Lightning Lord]

We're told repeatedly that Trollocs are very ill-disciplined in most circumstances. How many flights of arrows could the Duopotamians have gotten off before the Fades turned the Trolloc horde around and got it to charge in the opposite direction?

The same goes for Dumai's Wells; under the specific circumstances (taking the Shaido from behind; Aes Sedai who know what they're doing vs. Shaido Wise Ones who don't; Rand escaping and taking out the Aes Sedai who were maintaining the defenses; Asha'man arriving) I don't think it's contrived that some of Perrin's people would have gotten through. That all of the plot-relevant characters except Rhuarc made it inside is fishier, and certainly that all of those things happened simultaneously you have to blame the Wheel for.

Trollocs are ill-disciplined when not being watched by a Fade. There were dozens (hundreds?) of Fades ushering them forward. Trollocs also really like killing things. Additionally, the Trollocs wanted revenge for Slayer. And all they had to do was run forward fast. The had a nice clear field to run across, no mud or barricades until they got to the palisade. The people of Emond's Field have been besieged for weeks at this point. They're running out of food and there is no prospect of outside help. Unless allowing for the Perrin-Destiny Superpower, there is no way the trollocs lose that battle. It's ridiculous.

Dumai's Wells: The Shaido conveniently fail to display one of the chief Aiel characteristics in that battle. They don't have any scouts or spotters or rear guard. They are completely caught by surprise. Then they somehow fail to react at all to the situation, continuing to just press forward while people attack them from behind. Until the Asha'man arrive, then suddenly they turn on their attackers. None of which changes the fact that they would have overwhelmed the Aes Sedai camp in minutes, not be held at bay.

[Old Nan]

And all they had to do was run forward fast.

Neglecting the turn-around-first part, yes. I don't imagine it's exactly easy to turn around a scrum of Trollocs that are trying to climb over each other to get to the breaking Emond's Field line, particularly since the Fades (if they're holding to their standard tactics of lead from the rear) are probably full of arrows at this point.

The Shaido conveniently fail to display one of the chief Aiel characteristics in that battle. They don't have any scouts or spotters or rear guard.

Which is noted in the prologue to ACOS. The justification is yet another coincidence, but it is justified.

Then they somehow fail to react at all to the situation, continuing to just press forward while people attack them from behind.

Well, a cavalry charge carries with it a certain amount of momentum. After which the entire thing devolved into a melee, as one would expect.

[Shryke]

Trollocs are ill-disciplined when not being watched by a Fade. There were dozens (hundreds?) of Fades ushering them forward. Trollocs also really like killing things. Additionally, the Trollocs wanted revenge for Slayer. And all they had to do was run forward fast. The had a nice clear field to run across, no mud or barricades until they got to the palisade. The people of Emond's Field have been besieged for weeks at this point. They're running out of food and there is no prospect of outside help. Unless allowing for the Perrin-Destiny Superpower, there is no way the trollocs lose that battle. It's ridiculous.

No, Trollocs are ill-disciplined all the time. It's just without a Fade to use fear to force them to do something, they are not just ill-disciplined, they are also lazy and opportunistic.

They rely solely on numbers and brute strength and will break fairly quickly once their fear of death becomes more then their fear of the Fades.

The Trollocs didn't want revenge for Slayer, they were simply acting on his orders (hence the warcries). Trollocs don't give a shit about stuff like that.

Without someone forcing them to attack the town, they would have been perfectly happy to run around the countryside grabbing easy prey.

[Lightning Lord]

Neglecting the turn-around-first part, yes. I don't imagine it's exactly easy to turn around a scrum of Trollocs that are trying to climb over each other to get to the breaking Emond's Field line, particularly since the Fades (if they're holding to their standard tactics of lead from the rear) are probably full of arrows at this point.

First,

I was talking about the initial charge, the one that would have buried Emond's Field beneath thousands of enormous trollocs. You're talking about when the Devon Ride people show up. When it was a melee and the new people started shooting into the mass of people/trollocs, never hitting the humans. But, yes it would be near-impossible to turn around a mass of trollocs like in this situation.

Second,

There wasn't much of a cavalry charge. Most of Perrin's troops are afoot, the siswai'aman (is that the term?). And a large number of the cavalry were ordered to hold back and guard the AS. Obviously that was ignored, but I don't think they were involved in the charge, it would have ruined their chance to protect the AS if they had charged in. You also didn't address my main point in Dumai's Wells: that there's not a realistic scenario for the camp siege to exist. 40,000 Aiel and couple hundred albeit-inexperienced channelers are held off by 1/100 number of troops and 1/8 number of channelers.

Third,

This discussion only exists because I have issue with the numbers of Two Rivers folk, nothing you have said in any way contradicts my claim that there are an unrealistic number of them.

I'm done. You're not going to be convinced. Entrenched WoT fans don't change their minds and there's no point in discussing things with a brick wall.

[Lightning Lord]

No, Trollocs are ill-disciplined all the time. It's just without a Fade to use fear to force them to do something, they are not just ill-disciplined, they are also lazy and opportunistic.

They rely solely on numbers and brute strength and will break fairly quickly once their fear of death becomes more then their fear of the Fades.

The Trollocs didn't want revenge for Slayer, they were simply acting on his orders (hence the warcries). Trollocs don't give a shit about stuff like that.

Without someone forcing them to attack the town, they would have been perfectly happy to run around the countryside grabbing easy prey.

Okay, I'll grant you every single point here. Problem is, they had the numbers and brute strength to overrun Emond's Field (really, we're talking 10:1 here). And there was someone forcing them to attack (the mass of Fades).

[Xanrn]

Yes because Sevanna was running the show, the Shaido had no Clan Chief. I am pretty sure in CoS you see Shaido brings this up and Sevanna says shut up and then they bitch about after they loose aswell.

Trollocs like killing, when they outnumber. They are your typical bullies. The idiot who created them failed to realise, most animals won't press the attack if resistance is fierce and make shit soldiers because of it. Trollocs need to be driven into the fight unless they can see for themselves(and they are idiots) that they will most likely win.

Also the Two Rivers are pretty much the Swiss. Mantherenenennen or whatever means People of the Mountain Home. Hell they use Polearms aswell as Longbows, so they are pretty much Swiss freemen with English yeomen, creating the ultimate medieval supersoldier.

I disagree, none of the Two Rivers are peasants. As I said they are pretty much the Swiss.

Also I am pretty sure Perrin is the descendant of the Last King and Mat is probably of whatever noble ran the original Band of the Red Hand.

[Lightning Lord]

Trollocs like killing, when they outnumber. They are your typical bullies. The idiot who created them failed to realise, most animals won't press the attack if resistance is fierce and make shit soldiers because of it. Trollocs need to be driven into the fight unless they can see for themselves(and they are idiots) that they will most likely win.

See post directly above yours.

[Old Nan]

You also didn't address my main point in Dumai's Wells: that there's not a realistic scenario for the camp siege to exist. 40,000 Aiel and couple hundred albeit-inexperienced channelers are held off by 1/100 number of troops and 1/8 number of channelers.

They were actually held off entirely by the Aes Sedai, in exactly the same manner the Ashaman use.

Thousands of algai’d’siswai made a huge pool of veiled gray-and-brown surging around a circle of wetlander wagons, which itself surrounded one of the small clumps of trees that dotted this region. Sevanna drew an angry breath. The Aes Sedai had even had time to bring all of their horses inside. The spears encircled the wagons, pressed in on them, showered arrows toward them, but those at the front seemed to push against an invisible wall. At first the arrows that arched highest passed over this wall, but then they too began striking something unseen and bouncing back. A low murmur rose among the Wise Ones.

This discussion only exists because I have issue with the numbers of Two Rivers folk, nothing you have said in any way contradicts my claim that there are an unrealistic number of them.

Because there is no indication in text of exactly how many there are, I'm not sure how it is possible to disprove your claim.

I'm done. You're not going to be convinced. Entrenched WoT fans don't change their minds and there's no point in discussing things with a brick wall.

:rolleyes:

[Lightning Lord]

They were actually held off entirely by the Aes Sedai, in exactly the same manner the Ashaman use.

Because there is no indication in text of exactly how many there are, I'm not sure how it is possible to disprove your claim.:rolleyes:

Why do I bother...

You truncated that quote. Moments later, the Wise Ones disrupt the AS weaves, arrows begin falling and lightning/fireballs start hitting. Soldiers start clashing.

There is indication that Emond's Field and the entire Two Rivers is really sparsely populated. We know Tar Valon is the biggest city in Randland with less than half million people. We know that Caemlyn is smaller than TV. We know that the bumpkins think Baerlon is the biggest a city can get, despite being only a town. We know that Taren Ferry is bigger than Emond's Field. If we keep stepping down like that, Emond's Field gets to be either pretty small or a magical realm that makes people think it's smaller than it is.

[Old Nan]

You truncated that quote. Moments later, the Wise Ones disrupt the AS weaves, arrows begin falling and lightning/fireballs start hitting. Soldiers start clashing.

Yes, yes, yes, and no. There is not an indication that the Aiel make it through to fight with Warders and Gawyn's men in any numbers before Perrin's charge and Taim's intervention. After the Shaido WOs destroy the barrier, the Aes Sedai start lashing out with fire and such, still holding back the Shaido more or less by themselves. The soldiers are mopping up the intrepid few, not defending against a charge. And they hold the perimeter until Rand starts knocking them out.

There is indication that Emond's Field and the entire Two Rivers is really sparsely populated. We know Tar Valon is the biggest city in Randland with less than half million people. We know that Caemlyn is smaller than TV. We know that the bumpkins think Baerlon is the biggest a city can get, despite being only a town. We know that Taren Ferry is bigger than Emond's Field. If we keep stepping down like that, Emond's Field gets to be either pretty small or a magical realm that makes people think it's smaller than it is.

Tar Valon has more than half a million, I believe, but I'm not sure why you're puzzled farmers live predominantly on farmsteads rather than in villages proper. I'm pretty sure there was a chapter or two about Perrin's magic plot powers gathering them in, but even so we never get numbers. I say there were several hundred at most; you claim more, but I don't see any evidence for an unbelievably large population.

[Lightning Lord]

Yes, yes, yes, and no. There is not an indication that the Aiel make it through to fight with Warders and Gawyn's men in any numbers before Perrin's charge and Taim's intervention. After the Shaido WOs destroy the barrier, the Aes Sedai start lashing out with fire and such, still holding back the Shaido more or less by themselves. The soldiers are mopping up the intrepid few, not defending against a charge. And they hold the perimeter until Rand starts knocking them out.

Tar Valon has more than half a million, I believe, but I'm not sure why you're puzzled farmers live predominantly on farmsteads rather than in villages proper. I'm pretty sure there was a chapter or two about Perrin's magic plot powers gathering them in, but even so we never get numbers. I say there were several hundred at most; you claim more, but I don't see any evidence for an unbelievably large population.

The battles are inconsistent. A few dozen AS hold off hundreds of channlers and tens of thousands, but when it's the Tower against a raid of Seanchan, they crumble. Yes the raid was a surprise, yes those channelers had more experience as weapons, but their numbers were much much smaller. Even the Green comment upon how poorly AS fared. Since that's the standard, Galina's camp makes no sense.

And several hundred farmers and villagers cannot hold off an army of trollocs. If they can, then trollocs might as well be the puppets that were paraded through Caihien in tGH because they are worthless as adversaries. Their size and strength is always touted and the Borderlanders are amazing warriors because they can fight them off, but farmers can manage it? In EotW Shienar rides against the host from the Blight and are getting slaughtered before Rand shows up. The numbers? Ten times as many shadowspawn as soldiers. Battle-hardened, well-provisioned, professional soldiers. The Two Rivers longbow seems to make them invincible and that is ridiculous.

So, either trollocs are a joke, the Two Rivers has much higher population than we've been led to believe (and my previous estimates were attempts to be generous, I think your "several hundred is probably right), or we accept that Two Rivers Longbow grants its wielder +25 dexterity, +25 strength, +25 constitution and "Wielder Cannot Be Killed" status.

The battles just don't make sense in the series.

[Edward the Great]

Not at all. And I, like so many people here got into 'post-tolkien' fantasy through WOT, and TEOW. One of my distinct memories is of the prologue being far too confusing for my 11 year-old brain. Who was this 'Dragon'? Who's Ilyena? The Betrayer of Hope? What's the One Power? I remember finishing the prologue and thinking, "there's no way I can read another 800 pages of this." The sense of relief on opening chapter one and being immersed in something immediately familiar saved me (Ah, the Farmboy. Breath. Ah, the mysterious bad-guy watching. Breath. Ah, the village. Breath). As I get older I find myself intellectually understanding people's problems with that book, but I have such a sentimental attachment to it and to the series itself that I'll never stop loving it.

I'm getting bored with discussion of this book, but it's worth mentioning that what pulled me into A Song of Ice and Fire was the sense that if I read long enough, I'd see that most of what you learn in the beginning was a load of bullshit - which it was.

I think what pulled me into Lord of the Rings was the sense of history.

[Gertrude]

Weren't there a lot of refugees floating around? I don't remember when they started pouring in, but I got the impression that shortly after Perrin set up as Lord, they were becoming pretty fairly integrated.

[David Selig]

I don't think the exact number of men Perrin had available to defend Emond's Field were mentioned anywhere, but on my recent reread my impression was that he had a lot more than several hundred men available - at least 1500-2000. They absolutely demolished 500 Trolloc which charged at one point, just with their bows, killing the vast majority of them - none of the Trollocs even made it past the killing field and very few managed to run away. At one point Faile mentioned that "hundreds and hundreds of people" have come to Emond's Field after Perrin's warnings and there's plenty of talk how the whole village is way overcrowded, wagons everywhere, people sleeping 10-15 per room, etc. The Whitecloacks took them seriously enough they made a deal with Perrin instead of just trying to bully the villagers, I doubt they would've done that if they had equal numbers to them, given that Whitecloacks are experienced soldiers with top class equipment, not to mention really arrogant.

I'd certainly accept much easier slightly exaggerated numbers of villagers living in Two Rivers (it's a pretty big area and it was shown that a lot of the locals lived on farms away from the village) than Perrin having only several hundreds at his disposal yet still beating the Trollocs. Even with the help of the other two villages, the Trollocs still would've had a massive advantage in numbers, something like 3:1. Even at equal numbers, it's a bit hard to swallow, given how the Trollocs are supposed to be fearsome fighters, much bigger and stronger physically than men, and their opponents were villagers with no battle experience but when we add the Old Blood level up in badass, it's acceptable.

[Edward the Great]

I did finish the book. It does pick up at the end. I have one curiosity, does this dragon banner that they find in the Eye of the World ever show up again?

[Shryke]

I did finish the book. It does pick up at the end. I have one curiosity, does this dragon banner that they find in the Eye of the World ever show up again?

Yes. Much, much sooner then you think.

[fionwe1987]

Has anyone else noticed how Lightning Lord has a habit of calling people who're winning arguments against him "entrenched WoT fans who won't see reason?". I'm not waiting for him to start ignoring Old Nan and Shryke as well.

While I know he's not going to read my posts, can someone reply quoting what I say? I really think some of his points are completely idiotic. This debate shouldn't even be happening...

The battles are inconsistent. A few dozen AS hold off hundreds of channlers and tens of thousands, but when it's the Tower against a raid of Seanchan, they crumble. Yes the raid was a surprise, yes those channelers had more experience as weapons, but their numbers were much much smaller. Even the Green comment upon how poorly AS fared. Since that's the standard, Galina's camp makes no sense.

Let's see... a concentrated group of around 30 AS hold back thousands of Shaido and some really inexperienced Wise Ones. Hence, 3-4 Aes Sedai just woken from sleep should be able to fight equal numbers of channelers who're much more skilled at combat. Yes. Very logical...:rolleyes:

And several hundred farmers and villagers cannot hold off an army of trollocs. If they can, then trollocs might as well be the puppets that were paraded through Caihien in tGH because they are worthless as adversaries. Their size and strength is always touted and the Borderlanders are amazing warriors because they can fight them off, but farmers can manage it? In EotW Shienar rides against the host from the Blight and are getting slaughtered before Rand shows up. The numbers? Ten times as many shadowspawn as soldiers. Battle-hardened, well-provisioned, professional soldiers. The Two Rivers longbow seems to make them invincible and that is ridiculous.

Can anyone tell this guy (again) that way before the Trollocs came close to the TR men, they were being pelted with huge-ass exploding frigging boulders? It wasn't just the longbow. The charge of the Trollocs was continuously getting disrupted.

So, either trollocs are a joke, the Two Rivers has much higher population than we've been led to believe (and my previous estimates were attempts to be generous, I think your "several hundred is probably right), or we accept that Two Rivers Longbow grants its wielder +25 dexterity, +25 strength, +25 constitution and "Wielder Cannot Be Killed" status.

Wait... what? The Two Rivers are has several thousand people. Since when has this been in doubt?

[David Selig]

Since earlier in the thread, when Old Nan wrote that there were only several hundred of them. ;)

[Prince Who Was Promised]

Well, according to Wikipedia's entry on the Two Rivers: After Rand al'Thor proclaimed himself the Dragon Reborn, however, the isolation of the Two Rivers ended. The collapse of the nations of Tarabon and Arad Doman, due mostly to his presence, brought huge numbers of refugees across the Mountains of Mist and into the Two Rivers, disturbing the local culture and quickly "modernizing" the agricultural backwater.

Not to mention that people from surrounding villages came to help when the Trollocs invaded. So, while Emond's Feild itself might've had a few hundred, refugees and allies from places such as Watch Hill and Devin Ride increased the number of combatants greatly.

[WhiteHaven]

You guys realize that you are writing all this shit in a thread dedicated to the "The Eye of the World". Yeah? Good, then use those fuckin' spoiler tags.

Thanks.