Books of the Year 2010

[Little Valkyrie]

This is a great discussion, thanks. I've been rather bemused by the fact that I didn't really like the novel on the large scale, but I'm very interested in what worked in it and what didn't:

When I call the Erimeri's regime colonial I'm almost talking more about their dominance over the gods specifically, rather than their rule of the Hundred Thousand Kingdoms in general which I agree could've been developed much better [though I think that would've been a different and possibly much longer book.] The degree to which the gods are shown to be exploited as resources by the Erimeri does a decently good job [for me] of approaching the basic truths of colonialism as use and exploitation from a fantastical, metaphorical angle.

Okay, this makes sense, and I'd generally agree. Where I'd differ is that I, ultimately, saw more of the weight/focus of the novel going onto Itempas as the agent of enslaving his siblings, and the Arameri are simply the beneficiaries of that original struggle. This makes it less of a political/cultural struggle and more of a family squabble; not that the two things aren't set up as parallel or the smaller-scale isn't a metaphor for the larger...but it's inexact enough a metaphor that I think it weakened the impact.

The whole construction might be more complex if the evil imperialists weren't so clearly set up as horrible people, sure. But: A: I don't think the book is particularly interested in excusing the Erimeri; it's about how colonialism sucks.

I think it would have been deeper if it had set up a situation where it was more true that the evil imperialists weren't purely evil, as has often been the case with admittedly repressive and colonial regimes. I don't want to read a "Here come the conquering heroes for the good of the natives!" book (not that I think anyone's going to write those anymore, at least I don't think), but the opposite is a bit dull, too. I think Glenda Larke's Mirage Makers does an interesting balance, where repression has also brought roads and education.

Decarta is interesting, especially in his faulty assumption that Yeine was more culturally Arameri than she was (and there's another area that I think went underdeveloped in the book); but Scimina is just inexcusably one-dimensional. Jemisin's own comments on that front were genuinely disappointing.

But there's a place where even Yeine gets to contribute to the exploitation-of-magical-power-as-colonial-dominance metaphor, specifically when she takes control of Nahatoth [the godporn instigator] to go and lay down the law with some of the people invading her homeland Unless I'm remembering this wrong and making shit up, she's tempted, she feels the lure of using someone else's power as a resource when given the means to do so. And she does use that power, does join in the exploitation for a moment, but then she steps back, which I suppose on the story's moral scale is what makes her better than the rest of them in a nutshell.

That's a good observation, and it does deepen her. I think what derails some of it for me is that Yeine does this in a situation where she is totally in the right; Jemisin sets it up so that of course it's Yeine defending her homeland against aggressors. Let me see if I can find the passage:

“Darr claimed the Atir Plateau in that war,” Gemd said quietly. “You know we want it back.”

I knew, and I knew that was a stupid, stupid reason to start a war. The people who lived on the Atir didn’t even speak the Mencheyev tongue anymore.

So it's not a situation where Yeine might have to admit her people had been in the wrong; nope, the cultural transfer has happened, time to give up on it and all. Maybe I'm being too nitpicky, but I think this falls in line with some of the moral smoothing that goes along. Also, with respect to Scimina and Nahadoth, maybe this will show up full-force in the final book (I don't think it's satisfactory in book 2, also love to hear your thoughts when you get around to it), I don't think it's portraying him as scarred by his own desires for retribution; it seems to take more of the "He's been hurt, and now he's got to get it out of his system...hey, there's some torturing to do!" line. But this has helped me see some other perspectives on the book that aren't dependent upon the romance/relationship angle, which I could not get into at all. Why is it always male god/female human???

[MattD]

Why is it always male god/female human???

Because of the gender constructions and mythologies of the societies in which these books are written?

While you'd think there would be a lot of male wish-fulfillment stuff out there--and I'm sure there is some--there really isn't space in the traditional male-constructed maiden/mother/crone and virgin/whore categories for that kind of romantic (in the contemporary sense) narrative. So it's not surprising that the exceptions that do portray male human/female goddess relationships portray them as perilous and destructive. I'm thinking of authors like Elizabeth Hand (Mortal Love in particular, although also Waking the Moon), Gene Wolfe (There Are Doors in particular, although again it recurs in his work), and maybe also Robert Holdstock's Mythago Wood (though "goddess" there may not fit). The conception goes back at least to the fairy queen Titania's habit of enspelling young mortal boys in A Midsummer Night's Dream.

I am, BTW, entirely in agreement with you about The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms, which I've already gone on at length about in the book's thread here, and elsewhere. I think it gets more credit for what it tries to say than what a careful reading of the text shows it actually says.

[Little Valkyrie]

Because of the gender constructions and mythologies of the societies in which these books are written?

It was a bit of a rhetorical question, but a true answer nonetheless. It seems to be the model for the series, anyhow. At least some reviewers have commented that there are some gestures towards non-hetero relationships and models in the text--Nahadoth and Itempas were clearly an item, and Nahadoth is gender-flexible in how he presents himself...but then none of this is actually manifested.

ETA: Oh, snap! It's your very thoughtful review (Lingua Fantastika) that I was just thinking of, there. Also, I'm really fascinated by the observation about the 'country mouse' narrative, and would love to make a list of more things which fall into that category.

[Chaldanya]

Nearly headless ned: am with you on the grossbart book dude had a wicked turn of phrase but I did gag when reading the sex scene.

N

[Mjolnir]

Little Valkyrie, Mat D: All good points, and I can't really argue directly with any of them; I just liked the book regardless.

On the inexactness of the enslavement metaphor within the divine family [itempas enslaving his sibblings] being extended to the Erimeri becoming the beneficiaries of that enslavement: In my perception of the book, what Jemisin's trying to expose here is, as I think you imply, how the personal can motivate and catalyze political action. An unhealthy / harmful domestic microcosm can fester and grow, baloon outwards and [in the exaggerated metaphorical space of a fantasy novel] subsume a culture and a world entire. This equation of the political with the personal is an idea which cuts a lot of ice with me, which is why it works for me in THTK as well as it does even if I'd rather a little more focus had been placed on the Erimeri themselves as colonizers. Empires are forged by the macro movements of states, sure, but at the bottom of those movements are people, and some of them have that drive to conquer and/or possess which drives Itempas to assert dominance and cause imbalance, the urge Decarta and his Erimeri are heir to on the mortal scale. In a sense that they end up with the power to control the chained Enefadeh fits the ongoing metaphor exactly. I've seen some complaints that the whole backstory of THTK is a soap opera, from the creation myth on down, and, well, of course it is. History's a soap opera, too.

Didn't know Jemisin had commented on Scimina. I'll have to look that up and see for myself, but you say her comments don't open up any new way to look at the incredibly static character? That's too bad.

I'll give you Yeine's moral road being made too smooth. I still think her connection to the exploitation pyramid of Erimeri culture [and through them Itempas, I suppose] makes her more than one dimensional, but I'll admit she's not a particular strength of the book. Which as she's the protagonist is an issue. I do like the way she converses with the fragment of Enefa within her, though, which I think may deepen a reread -- I hope, at least.

Your mention of Nahatoth's gender-bending traits and his relationship with Itempas [which I think are made a little more explicit in the book than you give them credit for but are certainly not all there], plus your mention of Decarta's cultural assumptions about Yeine calls my attention to a trend I'm sure you've both noticed, being more critical of the book than I am, which is that Jemisin seems to have an embarrassment of riches in terms of really excellent and potentially fruitful ideas which she throws out there but seems unwilling to really let fly. [That was all one sentence, damn.] Though I still think of the book very positively, I'm starting to think -- and this conversation's helped -- that the book is maybe not quite as destabilizing of epic fantasy's power structure as it seems to think it is.

You have to admit it's a book worth talking about, though; we've all three of us spilt a fair bit of virtual ink over it now and two of us don't even like it.

On the lack of human/divine relationships in which the uberpowerful divinity is a woman, I assumed I'd be able to think of all sorts of male wish-fulfillment stories in modern fantasy -- with more or less literary panache depending on the example -- but you're right, I can't. I'm not that well-read, but still... There's one or two brief ones in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fyonavar Tapestry if you want to go there, but come to think of it one of those also falls firmly into the perilous and harmful category. [And not just perilous and harmful in the THTK sense, since Nahadoth never really does Yeine harm -- though I did get the sense that he could, that he was a genuinely dangerous being, which elevates THTK's wish fulfillment a universe above plenty of vampire suckfests. No, perilous as in the dude dies.] But outside of that I can't think of any Mat D hasn't mentioned. [i won't lie, I haven't read There Are Doors yet; I'm a miserable heretic and do not get on with Wolfe all the time.] In fact, though I've only read the Holdstock once and won't pretend I got close to getting everything -- he was a very dense writer -- I'd argue it doesn't qualify: The two brothers do too much contesting for the female myth figure in a very machismo-esque way; she's got a say in what happens, sure, but seems relatively passive through most of it. She's far more passive than the overpowering, sexually aggressive figures like Nahadoth and his ilk.

I know I said we should do more of this sort of discussion in the best-of-year thread, and I still think that, but maybe if we want to go into Jemisin specifically in more detail we should revive her thread? We might be drowning out the rest of the party in here. Anyone want to go into any of the other books in more detail? What other books are people elevating unjustly? Not giving enough credit?

[MattD]

It was a bit of a rhetorical question

I figured as much, but it got me thinking about the exceptions...and any time I come up with a list that includes Gene Wolfe, Liz Hand, Robert Holdstock, and the Bard, I figure that's a list worth posting.

Also, I'm really fascinated by the observation about the 'country mouse' narrative, and would love to make a list of more things which fall into that category.

I mentioned it in the 100k review because it really is rare to see a reasonably long book that is so completely encapsulated by that narrative. More often I see it in episodes or motifs within books; in that more limited sense it's quite common in fantasy. Brandon Sanderson uses it a lot, as I mentioned in the review--in books like Elantris and Warbreaker. Rand struck me as a country mouse whenever he went to a big city in the early Wheel of Time books; Tavi also in the Codex Alera series. Menolly is a country mouse in McCaffrey's first two Harper Hall books. There's a hint of it in Beagle's The Last Unicorn. There's also a hint of it in Martha Wells's Wheel of the Infinite and The Element of Fire--although in the latter interestingly it's on the part of a character who is not initially the POV character. McDermott's Last Dragon subverts the motif somewhat, too, as the story pattern occurs but against the wit and will of the country mouse character. In The Lord of the Rings, the rural folks--the small town Hobbits, Strider the ranger, Gandalf the homeless wizard--basically hop between urban areas and cleanse the blight at the heart of each: Bill Ferny from Bree, the Balrog from Moria, Wormtongue from Edoras, Denethor from Gondor, Saruman from the Shire. But Tolkien, as he so often does, prevents things from being entirely simple by frowning somewhat at the small-mindedness of that rural perspective as embodied by Sam, and valorizing the broader worldly perspective gained by Merry and Pippin, at home in both small town and city.

Anyway, that's just fantasy novels off the top of my head; I'm sure there are a lot more examples out there, within fantasy and without.

Mjolnir, I wouldn't say that I didn't like 100k...there are parts I liked and parts I didn't like. It at least raises a lot of topics that interest me that haven't often shown up in fantasy. That means that while it may not be the ideal vehicle for discussion of those topics, it's one of the only vehicles we've got, so it makes sense to use it.

[Nearly Headless Ned]

Nearly headless ned: am with you on the grossbart book dude had a wicked turn of phrase but I did gag when reading the sex scene.

N

He makes Jean Auel seem like a nun!

[Little Valkyrie]

Didn't know Jemisin had commented on Scimina. I'll have to look that up and see for myself, but you say her comments don't open up any new way to look at the incredibly static character? That's too bad.

Here it is:

http://nkjemisin.com/2010/03/character-study-scimina/

But this is all I know about her. It’s all Yeine needed to know. And it’s all either Yeine or I wanted to know, because it’s hard to plot another person’s death if you know them and understand them. (I don’t even think about what happened to her when the book ended, when Nahadoth took her away with him to the gods’ realm. I don’t like making my mind go into terrible places. I do it when I have to, but in this case I don’t. So I won’t.)

So, Scimina: evil Just Because.

Do read the whole post, but it's frustrating to me on so very many levels. An author who can't stand to make a villain 3-D, or even have an idea of what her motivations are, because then it would be too hard to make her villainous? Throw in the "Yes, Nahadoth tortures her horribly, but I didn't think about it!" and I'm almost repulsed. It's not the kind of comment from an author that bodes well for future plotting, at least in her understanding (which I don't share) of the epic fantasy mode.

Sure, for some readers this is a big honking invitation to fanfic, which is appropriate because Jemisin did start in fandom/writing fic, but I think it's a big flaw to leave your primary antagonist so blank.

I do like the way she converses with the fragment of Enefa within her, though, which I think may deepen a reread -- I hope, at least.

My quick reaction in the book,

****

after a few of these went on, as you'll know what I mean

****

was that Jemisin was going for something unreliable narrator ala Gene Wolfe, but couldn't quite pull it off. Same with the whole 'Yeine repeating sentences to herself frantically' thing. I'll chalk some of that up to first-novel technique issues.

The country mouse model interests me because I've been thinking a lot about moral evaluations in my SF/fantasy leisure reading lately, especially on the level of 'author wants things complex and is willing to make them so' vs. 'author has very definite views and the plot structure/characterization shows it everywhere'.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

FWIW, I am enjoying the discussion, but would personally recommend that you take it to the dedicated thread. I almost missed the whole thing, because I normally don't read "Books of the Year" threads, or not very diligently. You might get more people involved if you make it more obvious. (Or not, I'm not sure! :lol:)

[Adept Havelock]

On the lack of human/divine relationships in which the uberpowerful divinity is a woman, I assumed I'd be able to think of all sorts of male wish-fulfillment stories in modern fantasy -- with more or less literary panache depending on the example -- but you're right, I can't. I'm not that well-read, but still... There's one or two brief ones in Guy Gavriel Kay's Fyonavar Tapestry if you want to go there

The only modern fantasy with a male, female goddess relationship that comes to mind is 'Redemption of Althalus' by Eddings.

[Guest Raidne]

Any chance some ambitious mod would just move the whole thing? I'm just trolling for book suggestions and its a bit cumbersome.

[peterbound]

Any chance some ambitious mod would just move the whole thing? I'm just trolling for book suggestions and its a bit cumbersome.

Radine,

How are you not a Mod yet?

[Guest Raidne]

I'm not really very mod-like in temperment. :devil:

[polishgenius]

The only modern fantasy with a male, female goddess relationship that comes to mind is 'Redemption of Althalus' by Eddings.

And I wish it didn't because it's so bad.

[Mjolnir]

Thanks for the link to the Scimina thing, Little Valkyrie. I read it and ... hmm. It's almost as though Jemisin's trying to work with epic fantasy in two different ways at the same time, wanting to write something fraught and heavy on moral complexity and stuff, while maintaining, at the project's root, a sort of concrete pad of moral absolutism -- Scimina, Yeine's righteousness which you pointed out earlier, etc. So Scimina's more of a genre convention than a real person; well, it shows, she really sticks out. It's as though the novel is trying to have its cake and eat it too in terms of making things complicated whilst maintaining arbitrary morality to fall back on. Certainly a little bit disturbing and I think it sends mixed messages.

Yeah, I really do think it's good that the books of the year thread be a discussion of those books rather than just a list, but on reflection this might have gone better in the dedicated thread, sorry.

[Datepalm]

And I wish it didn't because it's so bad.

I might be imagining at this point, but I think one of the other Eddings series had a female goddess getting it on with mortals as well (One of the Sparhawk ones, not the Garion ones.) And its at least less bad than Althalus. Faint praise, I know.

[Mjolnir]

Oh yeah, good point. It's the Tamuli series [and the Elenium to a certain extent, at least in hints at the end.] The goddess is Aphrael -- or something, forget how you spell the name. Well, not "getting it on" as such. The principle adult form of Aphrael that appears a couple times doesn't, unless I'm forgetting something; she attaches no sexual significance to her own nudity, for instance [though if I remember correctly it does, um, discombobulate some of the people around her.] But one of her avatars -- little girl, under ten years old -- very clearly states her intention to marry one of the male characters when she's old enough. [Given that she's got the mind of a thousand-year-old goddess this makes some in-story sense, but is still awfully creepy in retrospect.]

I'll take your word for it being better than Althalus, which I am unlikely to read at this point. There was a time when I thought Eddings was a god, his works the pinnacle of what could be aspired to, but those days are long, long gone.

[polishgenius]

I'll take your word for it being better than Althalus, which I am unlikely to read at this point. There was a time when I thought Eddings was a god, his works the pinnacle of what could be aspired to, but those days are long, long gone.

The Tamuli books are kind of readable, Althalus is terrible. The series after that, about the sleeping gods or whatever it was, is even worse. The second book is so bad that I reckon it literally broke my brain. Before then I'd never not finished a book I started, no matter how poor or slow I slogged my way through to the end. I didn't get a chapter into that though and ever since then there are unfinished books littering my house- even ones that are clearly quite good but I just can't get into and drop.

Sad, coz Eddings probably qualifies as my gateway drug for fantasy- The Belgariad wasn't the first I read, but it was the first time I really started hunting around for more.

[Datepalm]

The Tamuli books are kind of readable, Althalus is terrible. The series after that, about the sleeping gods or whatever it was, is even worse. The second book is so bad that I reckon it literally broke my brain. Before then I'd never not finished a book I started, no matter how poor or slow I slogged my way through to the end. I didn't get a chapter into that though and ever since then there are unfinished books littering my house- even ones that are clearly quite good but I just can't get into and drop.

Huh. It was Althalus itself that holds the dubious distinction of "first book I never finished" for me. (And I was 12 at the time and LOVED Eddings. Had read everything he had ever written. I was waiting for Althalus the way...well, the way we're waiting for a certain book that shall not be named. And I simply couldn't finish it. And I was on a 12 hour layover at an airport at the time.) So, yeah, Tamuli is better.

[Guest Raidne]

Trying to figure out what the repeats are in this list...since I first posted in it, I've now read the books that immediately stood out - Half-Made World and Under Heaven.

Speaking of Under Heaven, I'm glad to see Kay is back in his usual form even if that form requires...

the sacrifice of female prostitutes

But that is a subject for another thread. :)

Anyway, the next most repeated recommendation is, I think, The Dervish House? And I'll have to read Shipbreaker because Wind-Up Girl was really great.