Snobbery

[Tinydigit]

Yes. A hundred times, yes. So much so, that it is what all of Patty's worthless, east coast upper class, overly educated, narcissistic siblings do in Jonathan Franzen's novel Freedom.

It's not a trend, or a statistical fact, or anything - it's progressed well beyond that into a full-blown stereotype.

Don't you ever ask yourself how anyone can afford to do the work at the salary that's paid? Trust funds.

We have a friend that is like this (the one who thinks movie theaters are only for ‘those people.’). She works part-time as a ballet dancer and part-time as an art teacher for a non-profit that helps severely mentally ill kids and teenagers. Her dad is a retired Admiral, she was in private schools in northern Virginia or Maryland all her life, etc. She and her husband, an Army officer, moved to our neck of the woods and bought what I would call a “fix me up” but they call a “historic landmark” in a neighborhood they love to remind us both John McCain and F. Scott Fitzgerald once lived in. Whatever. Everything around it is the ghetto. The three times we’ve been to her house after dark, I’ve run every red light until I hit the interstate and dared the cops to pull me over.

The non-profit/human services stuff is pretty common in my experience. One of my sisters, who grew up in my dad’s circle of economic influence, works for peanuts at an inner-city elementary school.

[Balefont]

Oh, I know. I think we all think it's distasteful. It's just that we all also do it.

And I'm saying, I don't. So no, not all do it.

[TerraPrime]

I don't think any capitalist society can really get away with not having class, at least along economic lines. I just can't see how.

To the extent that different economic affluence enables different behavior sets, e.g., people in the 4th quintile of income really can't afford to take vacation at the Alps, for instance, we also have social and behavioral differences between the economic classes. In some cases, economic class and social class are conflated, but in other cases, they are not. The so-called nouveau rich, for instance, indicates high economic class but low social class. The term "blue blood", in opposite, refers to high social class, but not necessarily high economic class.

I grew up in Hong Kong, which is remarkably capitalistic. The favorite pass-time there in general is to figure out how to make more money. Separation by class is palpable. We get a double dose from our Chinese heritage, which is quite structured based on social class, as well as our colonial overlords, the British. Your address almost defines you. What, you live on Caine's road? You're upper middle-class. You live in Aberdeen? You're lower class. You live at mid-level and hilltop? Upper class. You own a condo in Happy Valley? You're old money. You can pinpoint people's social class quite readily. There's mobility, of course, between classes, but nobody ever bothers to pretend that there is no class structure.

My family is part of the immigrant wave from mainland that hit Hong Kong in the mid 70s. These typically consisted of educated young couples with their toddlers. So we became economically lower class (our family never made enough to pay income tax the entire time we've been in HK), but socially, we have more education than the local lower economic class people. Consequently, the children of these immigrants tend to move up the class ladder much more readily than the children of other lower economic class non-immigrants. Most of my parents' immigrant friends have their children finish college at some level, and most have moved on to white-collar or professional level jobs. Children from the non-immigrants, in comparison, tended to finish high school and enter the workforce, mostly as service sectors or blue-collar jobs. In many ways, it makes sense, since my parents were middle-class in mainland before they immigrated, and it's only the act of immigration that demoted their social standing (of course, at the time, there's no such thing as "class" anymore in mainland since the Communists were in charge... right....). I think to many extent, that story played out in the U.S. as well with regards to the waves of Asian immigrants in the 60s (see the most recent thread on WSJ's Tiger Mom article).

At any rate, I went to one of the more privileged primary and secondary school in HK, due to a friend of the family (a Catholic priest) who made the recommendation to accept me. Without that letter, the school would have never accepted someone with my background. The school is full of old money people. I've had classmates dropped off by their family chauffeur and an attending au pair every morning in their Rolls Royce. The less-prominent students would arrive in Mercedes. Then there's a small group of us who took public transport. To save on fare, I would get up at 5:30 to take the tram to get to school on time, because the tram moves slow. If we had more money, I maybe could have used the bus, which costed at the time about twice as much, but also twice as fast. To arrive at school in 2nd grade by myself (my parents each worked 2 jobs, so they were in no shape to drop me off in the morning) by myself as I watched the other kids with servants and fancy cars made for a very deep impression on what it means to be in the have-not group.

Save for a few rare examples, most of my classmates were not snobs. They were nice kids who didn't really know that they were the lucky ones. At least before 8th or 9th grade when things like that became apparent. I've been invited to birthday parties of friends whose parents owned yachts, and we'd be out cruising the harbor for the party. So, I did see glimpses of how the other side live, and it was foreign. As Lyanna said, there's an invisible barrier, just as a result of what they talk about. Lots of things they took for granted were completely foreign to me. Skiing? I've only seen it on TV. Tennis? Can't afford it. Membership at the Jockey's Club? No idea. First few times I was invited as a guest, I had no clue how to behave at a country club.

So yeah, I know what class system is, and I have experienced it.

Not being in the academic field to study class, I don't have a precise definition. But I know from my life experience what class is, in the socio-economic sense. But I also know what "class" is in the behavioral sense. Classy people respect themselves and are secure in their own lives. You can be poor and be classy, and you can be rich and be trashy. Money doesn't come into it when we're talking about "class" in that sense.

Oh well, enough rambling.

[Guest Raids]

And I'm saying, I don't. So no, not all do it.

The very fact that you have said that you don't engage in brand identification and find it distasteful not once, but three different ways now, says something about you and your identity that someone like Blaine can use to market to you.

[S John]

But for some reason, maybe it's insecurity, I don't want anyone else looking down on me.

Fuck 'em. Why should you care? If you are reasonably secure in whatever position you occupy in life, then it truly doesn't matter what someone else thinks. Clearly, there are certain basic standards of hygiene and politeness that all humans should aspire to, but beyond that anyone looking down on you for class related reasons is a dick anyway.

For those of us who have to work for a living, its my experience that you succeed or fail based on skill, your ability to work with other people, and your willingness to take on responsibility (and own up to it when you fail). Thats the kind of thing that gets you respect that yields results. If I do all of those things successfully, I don't see my West Virginia birth certificate and blue collar background barring me from tangible success. Maybe, to some, I'll never be a part of that elite club no matter what I do. But I mean, I don't want to hang out with those people anyway.

[Balefont]

Everyone says that. Not saying you're not the rarest of exceptions, but aside from actual recluses living in mountain caves and growing their own food, we are influenced by marketing.

Hmmm, how do I say this? I actually look for the following stuff:

Exactly. I'm not saying it rules all decisions, but it influences all decisions, whether we want it to or not. Everything, from the background music in the ad, the voiceover guy's tone, the pantone color on the label to the font selected for the logo tells us something that will influence us to buy or not buy.

In my advertising. I do it without actively thinking about it but I, through a series of bad friendships, actively look for manipulative influences including those presented in advertising and marketing. Shit, even at the mall I pay attention to what stores get what space in relation to parking, escalator availability, window space, etc. But while it may seem like I spend an awful lot of time of attention on this stuff, it's more in the form of internal musings.

Like, why does the Tropicana commerical use a man as the farmer and the woman as the purchaser at the supermarket? How would that appear if the roles were reversed? What would it look like if the farmer and the purcahser were both men? How about if both were women?

I buy the deodorant I buy because I've tried tons of different brands and few support my needs. 1) I don't want to stink because I don't like to smell myself and 2, I don't want to have sweaty pits because I don't like the feeling of dampness on my skin. Unfortunately, my body chemistry requires I use sooper dooper formulated deodorant which costs a ridiculous amount of money for deodorant. I wish I could use the cheaper shit but I can't.

I bought the car I have because I loved the way it drove and the price was unbelievable for the deal I was getting. Not once did I think, "I'm gonna look hot cruzin' in my Avalon". No, I like the driving experience and the car performed within my desired parameters.

I have a large 1080p flat screen TV and a PS3 because I love to watch my movies and play my games in HD and blue ray via the PS3 was the best way to achieve that for the price. Not once did I think, "Wait till my friends see this!"

The dress pants I wear for work were $8 at New York and Company off the clearance rack. Others are from TJ Maxx or Marshalls. If it looks professional enough, fits, and is comfortable I'll wear it. For casual dress, if it fits and is comfortable, I'll wear it. The bottom line is cost not name brands.

I try to adopt a "to each their own" philosophy because I choose not to waste worrying about shit that, at the end of the day, doesn't fricken' matter.

I'm a big fan of being practical.

[MinDonner]

Does anyone else have the tendency to worry very much about how people perceive them without being judgmental of others?

This is my mum, pretty much. Yes, she's the one that carefully removes the tape from giftwrap and re-uses it for years until it finally actually disintegrates - but all the time when I was a kid, she'd worry about things like not using the old/chipped/much-repaired crockery when we had people round. Like my friends were going to give a shit. :rolleyes: She'd never judge anyone else for that sort of behaviour, but it was very important to keep up her own appearances.

<--- totally lower-middle class :D

[Balefont]

The very fact that you have said that you don't engage in brand identification and find it distasteful not once, but three different ways now, says something about you and your identity that someone like Blaine can use to market to you.

Paying more money for the same quality product is impractical. Period.

ETA: I will reiterate - I don't buy things or not buy things because of what I think others will think. That was my point to Blaine's comment.

[AverageGuy]

Working for an arts-based nonprofit is desirable for the upper classes? :uhoh:

Primarily women. The men who don't go into business or law tend to go into academia. (and now we can bring up the interrelationship of sexism and classism!)

<- Another private school kid.

[Galactus]

I think it's kind of interesting how different the class markers are. I don't recall riding or tennis being particularly "upper-class" here (the local sports centre had a tennis court, and there's a (perpetually on the brink of financial ruin) riding club too. It (seemed at any rate) that most of the girls at least went through the motion of a horsey-phase. Tennis was just a sport for those weirdoes who didn't like football or hockey.

My family is... I guess middle-class (i'd classify mom as lower-middle and dad as middle-middle. My mother is an elementary school teacher, my father is an engineer. (my mother makes decent money *now* but that's after years of working, she didn't use to make much money at all) they'd probably be better off economically (less debt at least) if they weren't divorced.

Of course, five kids (for mom) and seven (for dad) did put somewhat of a strain on the finances I suspect :P

I suspect my siblings are all going to end up in a higher class than mom and dad: Only exception is eldest sister (who's a secretary, but then again, she married a farmer/forestry worker and they managed to buy tracts of woodland...) not-eldest sister works for the government (making environmental impact assessments) eldest brother is an architect, second-eldest works with computers (and makes a good wage doing so)

I'm probably the one least like to achieve something on that end (considering my disabilities and everything)

[Blaine]

Hmmm, how do I say this? I actually look for the following stuff:

In my advertising. I do it without actively thinking about it but I, through a series of bad friendships, actively look for manipulative influences including those presented in advertising and marketing. Shit, even at the mall I pay attention to what stores get what space in relation to parking, escalator availability, window space, etc. But while it may seem like I spend an awful lot of time of attention on this stuff, it's more in the form of internal musings.

Like, why does the Tropicana commerical use a man as the farmer and the woman as the purchaser at the supermarket? How would that appear if the roles were reversed? What would it look like if the farmer and the purcahser were both men? How about if both were women?

I buy the deodorant I buy because I've tried tons of different brands and few support my needs. 1) I don't want to stink because I don't like to smell myself and 2, I don't want to have sweaty pits because I don't like the feeling of dampness on my skin. Unfortunately, my body chemistry requires I use sooper dooper formulated deodorant which costs a ridiculous amount of money for deodorant. I wish I could use the cheaper shit but I can't.

I bought the car I have because I loved the way it drove and the price was unbelievable for the deal I was getting. Not once did I think, "I'm gonna look hot cruzin' in my Avalon". No, I like the driving experience and the car performed within my desired parameters.

I have a large 1080p flat screen TV and a PS3 because I love to watch my movies and play my games in HD and blue ray via the PS3 was the best way to achieve that for the price. Not once did I think, "Wait till my friends see this!"

The dress pants I wear for work were $8 at New York and Company off the clearance rack. Others are from TJ Maxx or Marshalls. If it looks professional enough, fits, and is comfortable I'll wear it. For casual dress, if it fits and is comfortable, I'll wear it. The bottom line is cost not name brands.

I try to adopt a "to each their own" philosophy because I choose not to waste worrying about shit that, at the end of the day, doesn't fricken' matter.

I'm a big fan of being practical.

That's all fine and dandy, but you're delusional if you don't think that marketing ever has anything to do with your decisions ever.

The chief job of any bit of advertising is to communicate information relevant to the purchaser. The more targeted, the better. Even if you're scrutinizing information that a product package or ad or whatever tells you, you're scrutinizing what they have decided to tell you in the way that they want you to see it.

Every decision is influenced my marketing, not controlled by it. You seem to have lost sight of this. You watch a 1080p and play PS3. How do you select what games you play? Do you crowdsource every decision or do you personally test every game or movie ever created? Or do you choose blindly, totally at random? Unless you're doing all of that, you're selecting what you think you will like and what is worth your money based upon what the marketing is telling you.

Not every decision is going to be based on what your friends think about your purchase. But for a great number of people that is important. They are a different kind of consumer than you are, not necessarily a worse one. You may find it frivolous, but the style-conscious might find you dull. Etc, etc.

Regardless of your internal musings and how much time you spend on thinking that you DON'T get influenced by marketing, it is unavoidable. I say this as someone who is paid a good salary to not only think about it, but craft it - and I still find myself influenced as a shopper.

And yeah, we totally have a customer type for people like you. Don't feel bad. It just means you're human and you spend money.

[Eponine]

While I don't think that it's true that the intelligentsia are completely outside the American class system, what about the effects of education on class signifiers? It appears to be a common way for people from lower class backgrounds to gain experiences that would typically be associated with the upper classes.

My boyfriend's class background is blue collar coal country. It's apparent that he doesn't think the same way or enjoy the same things as a lot of people from his hometown. Almost all his exposure to the things that make him socially and philosophically different from his background came from or because of his education. It's not even as if Va Tech is a rich kid school. (Hey, you can totally buy lobster for dinner with your meal plan dining dollars).

At 21, he seriously considered proposing to his uneducated girlfriend who wanted to settle down near their families and start making babies. But he realized that his college degree was an opportunity to travel and experience living in other parts of America, which she didn't want to do, so they broke up instead. And it was really a pretty big divergence of values as to what defined success per his upbringing.

I still hear people talk like class snobbery exists (trailer trash, etc), but I don't think I've really seen people act like snobs to people of a 'lower' class. Maybe it's too subtle.

We had a hard time at New Year's this year. Someone brought a girlfriend who was tacky in what I felt was a stereotypically lower class way. For example, she burped with her mouth open and thought it was cute. Note that she had never met anyone else in our group before. I don't know anyone who was raised upper-middle (as I was) who would have been allowed to think that this was appropriate public behavior. The way she was talking about her separation from her husband (who she kept referring to as "my husband" despite coming as someone's girlfriend) was very crude and overly personal. There were a lot of things - her attitude toward her kid and her attitude toward money. Now I don't think that her rudeness is a lower class quality - but I think the ways that she manifested her rudeness were different from if she wasn't lower class.

I suspect that she probably thinks that our dislike of her was snobbery. To be honest, while I would still have distaste for her if she had been upper-middle class and had revealed the things she did about her marriage and kid - I think I would have had an easier time knowing how to respond.

When we visit, it's hard to get out and do things because some people have almost no money. I try not to be snobby about it, but I have to remember just to keep my mouth shut, because my ideas of things we should do or places we should go aren't on the same wavelength.

[Zoë Sumra]

This is my mum, pretty much. Yes, she's the one that carefully removes the tape from giftwrap and re-uses it for years until it finally actually disintegrates - but all the time when I was a kid, she'd worry about things like not using the old/chipped/much-repaired crockery when we had people round. Like my friends were going to give a shit. :rolleyes: She'd never judge anyone else for that sort of behaviour, but it was very important to keep up her own appearances.

<--- totally lower-middle class :D

This was totally my mother too. :P Father's parents were lower-middle class social climbers, and my father considers himself middle-middle, which is probably accurate.

[Guest Raids]

Yeah, Ep, I can fess up to similar stuff with my husband's extended family also. They're classic factory guys, but with other investments in real estate. So they have some money, sure, but they are working class and proud of it.

They make racially charged comments and mispronounce simple words (sometimes all at once - I think I told the story before where a friend of one of theirs insisted that black people don't value education because it's their "lineege," which is wrong on some many different levels).

At any rate, now that I'm thinking about families, you can especially, especially tell people class backgrounds at weddings. Especially large weddings. Any self-respecting upper-class person would have been totally horrified at my wedding. I'm not sure that I'm not, honestly. A stretch Escalade? Really? Also, people smoked inside. And drank a lot of Bud Light.

But that's because the fun was defined by my husband's family, because they are fun. My family is more of the quiet, church-going, middle middle class-type. But nevertheless, at my cousin's wedding on that side, we drank rum and coke out of a plastic jug, listened to country, and my sister - a bridesmaid - entered the reception hall riding on the back of a groomsmen and wearing his cowboy hat.

My cousin married into a family that values fun also.

So what's with that? Why is the working class/upper-lower/lower-middle class so much more fun that the middle-middle, upper-middle class who try to be so damn proper all the time? And is it just my imagination that the upper class is about as not hung up on this kind of thing as the middle class?

I'm not sure I even know anybody upper class, so I have to ask all of you. Anybody British of the lower-middle class or higher can probably answer since the cultural values seem to be about equivalent to upper class Americans, who apparently just all aspire to be British. ;)

Also, I have to admit that I had this moment sitting at a bar in Flint last year where I looked around at everyone and, yes, judged them. I was like, what am I doing here? I don't really fit in here. But, you know, I had totally fit in at that very same bar six years prior. It was a really bad moment for me. The same thing did not happen this year, so I must have reconciled this stuff somehow.

[ljkeane]

For example, she burped with her mouth open and thought it was cute. Note that she had never met anyone else in our group before. I don't know anyone who was raised upper-middle (as I was) who would have been allowed to think that this was appropriate public behavior.

I know a guy that went to Eton, who is extremely upper class, who'd probably think that was hilarious. :dunno:

[AverageGuy]

While I don't think that it's true that the intelligentsia are completely outside the American class system, what about the effects of education on class signifiers?

I just assumed education was part of determining class. The OP article mentions money, education, family, and ethnicity specifically.

[Blaine]

So what's with that? Why is the working class/upper-lower/lower-middle class so much more fun that the middle-middle, upper-middle class who try to be so damn proper all the time? And is it just my imagination that the upper class is about as not hung up on this kind of thing as the middle class?

My guess is the upper middle and middle-middle try really hard to emulate what they think the upper class does at a formal function.

And the upper class keep their actual debaucheries fun well locked away from formal events like weddings.

[Galactus]

So what's with that? Why is the working class/upper-lower/lower-middle class so much more fun that the middle-middle, upper-middle class who try to be so damn proper all the time? And is it just my imagination that the upper class is about as not hung up on this kind of thing as the middle class?

The entire conglomerate of protestant work-ethic-bourgeisie values?

That says you should strive hard, because being successfull is a sign that God loves you, but you can't ever actually enjoy your wealth?

This as opposed to the aristocratic value-complex (which is all about pageantry and impressing on others how fucking cool you are).

[Eponine]

The absolute worst weddings are lower-middle class Baptist.

[Eponine]

I know a guy that went to Eton, who is extremely upper class, who'd probably think that was hilarious. :dunno:

But would he do it within 10 minutes of the first time he met a new girlfriend's family and friends? And if people weren't charmed by it, would he have the social savvy to stop?

Or would he just sit on the coach for the next three days, open mouth belching into the air while everyone ignored him?