Wisconsin Union Busting Bill/Protests

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Pretty much says it all. I like how the only two options to balance the budget here are "fire people" or "cut pay". Certainly, no other way at all.

Of course, the obvious alternative is to raise taxes. But this governor campaigned expressly against that, arguing that high tax rates will chase capital, businesses, and therefore jobs into other, more business-friendly states. The net effect would be fewer jobs. Regardless of the merits of that argument, it appealed to a pretty solid majority of voters in the state, who elected him and an overwhelming Republican legislature to cut spending and not raise taxes.

So again, it's back to the wishes of a majority of voters.

[Merentha]

Of course, the obvious alternative is to raise taxes.

Or not lower them. Maybe that too.

edit: And, couldn't you argue that these protests are the democratic populace realising that perhaps they were wrong and actually didn't want taxes cut across the board? Because right now, WI and AZ are pretty much competing for the right to be poster child for the "why lowering taxes can be really bad" movement.

[Tinydigit]

Who said they should sit down and shut up, or that their right to speak and feel outraged must end? I certainly didn't. I expressly stated that I have no problem with them peaceably assembling outside the Capitol and protesting. That's their right. What I don't like is physical intimidation.

Well then, can you explain to me the logic behind the sign that said "if Egypt can have democracy, why can't Wisconsin?" Because that's the specific sign to which I was referring when I made that comment. Wisconsin does have democracy. There was an election. So the only explanation I can figure for that sign is that that person just believes that Wisconsin isn't a democracy unless policies reflect their personal opinions, regardless of whether those are the opinions of the majority of voters. That's not democracy. And that pretty much goes for all the Egypt-related signs and comments people are making. To equate their losing out in the democratic process to the people of Egypt who lived in a dictatorship is just ignorant, and shameful.

That doesn't mean they have to stop bitching, but claiming that Wisconsin isn't a democracy is just asinine.

Amen. This is almost as bad as those fucknuts that claim that universal healthcare and/or limiting the availability of assault weapons will instantly transform the United States into a Socialist/Marxist/Fascist dystopia.

[S John]

And again, how are teacher's salaries causing Wisconsin to drift towards insolvency? Is it that insane starting salary of $25,222 or the average 10-year salary of $46,390? Tell me, what is it exactly about those evil Wisconsin teachers that is causing the state to sink towards bankruptcy?

I don't really have a strong opinion in this debate one way or another. But I think its fair to point out that public school teachers in the US don't work for 3 months during the summer + a couple weeks off in the spring + a couple weeks off around the holidays.

I don't think they're overpaid or anything by any means... but I do think that a 50k salary after 10 years, in an area with a low cost of living (Wisconsin), plus pension and benefits, when you don't work for ~20 - 30% of the year is pretty fair.

[Commodore]

All in all, it's just getting weird.

Wait till the Tea Party shows up at the capitol tomorrow. Should make for some interesting TV if/when they interact with protesters.

The Hermanator will be there.

[DrownedCrow]

I don't really have a strong opinion in this debate one way or another. But I think its fair to point out that public school teachers in the US don't work for 3 months during the summer + a couple weeks off in the spring + a couple weeks off around the holidays.

I don't think they're overpaid or anything by any means... but I do think that a 50k salary after 10 years, in an area with a low cost of living (Wisconsin), plus pension and benefits, when you don't work for ~20 - 30% of the year is pretty fair.

This is a good point. The attraction of the teaching profession is less about the salary than the enormous amount of vacation, the total job security, and, often, the ability to retire at an early age with a defined benefit pension. That's not something you'll find often in the private sector.

[The Iceman of the North]

I don't really have a strong opinion in this debate one way or another. But I think its fair to point out that public school teachers in the US don't work for 3 months during the summer + a couple weeks off in the spring + a couple weeks off around the holidays.

You really have no idea about the work pattern of a teacher, do you?

[Swordfish]

Ultimately, I believe the outcome of the Wisconsin impasse will rest on the actions of two groups: the police and fire unions. Every issue that faces teachers and other government workers also affects them - they are entitled to expensive pensions at even younger ages, they earn high wages, they have expensive health care (and VERY expensive Workman's Comp). But they get a pass for one and only one reason. A lot of them vote Republican. The blatant partisanship of the whole exercise stinks to high hell.

Do you have any links for these wage claims?

A brief google search turns up this:

Average police officer salary: 42,000

Average teacher salary: 46,390(which seems like a very good salary for someone working three quarters of a year, with excellent pension benefits)

But I have no idea if those links are reliable.

The governor is claiming that of the several hundred police and fire unions in the state, only four of them supported him.

Is there some reason to believe that isn't true?

[S John]

You really have no idea about the work pattern of a teacher, do you?

Look, I'm not saying its an easy job, but if you've been teaching 12th grade English for 10 years your lesson plans aren't going to switch up that much.

[Alexia]

My aunt and one of my cousins both work as teachers and they DO NOT get 30% of each year off. They both teach summer school - and my cousin teaches special education meaning that she busts her ass in an extremely challenging and demanding job.

Also, a large number of my husband's family works as administrative staff in the school system and they work year-round too.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Or not lower them. Maybe that too.

From what I've read, they lowered them by something around $170M over two years, which isn't even 5 percent of the expected deficit. And the cuts were specifically for businesses to hopefully bring jobs to the state. Now, if you don't believe that state tax rates are factored into decisions businesses make about expansion/relocation, then I can see why you might think that's a bad move.

edit: And, couldn't you argue that these protests are the democratic populace realising that perhaps they were wrong and actually didn't want taxes cut across the board?

You can argue anything. But there just isn't any logical support for that idea.

First, it wasn't like the Governor hid his intentions. He was pretty blunt about them, and there's no evidence that people believe that they were "fooled" or anything.

Second, taxes weren't cut across the board, so it is impossible for voters to have "realized" they didn't want something that didn't happen.

Third, the protests appear overwhelmingly to consist of government workers themselves, whom I sincerely doubt supported the governor during the campaign when he was advocating these cuts publicly. The representated unions supported his opponent. And they lost.

But sure, it is possible you are correct. And as I've said repeatedly, these folks are absolutely free to assemble peaceably and make their voices heard. Still doesn't change the fact that these legislators and the Governor are duly elected.

[Merentha]

Using completely irrelevant anecdotal evidence, both of my parent are teachers in NoVA. They spend about two or three hours at home grading or planning lessons in addition to their working hours and take a two week vacation at most over the summer. This is because they do not, even after working 10 years in the NoVA system, make enough money, so they tutor or work at summer schools full time during the summer. My father is 56 and does not think he will be able to retire for quite some time.

Yes, DC area, high cost of living, etc, but saying that they get all this free time is completely disingenuous. Again, anecdotal, I know.

[Swordfish]

Pretty much says it all. I like how the only two options to balance the budget here are "fire people" or "cut pay". Certainly, no other way at all.

edit: And, really, since when do corporations ever give out bonuses or raises when their taxes are lowered? Besides to their executives, I mean.

Corporations give out bonuses and increases in pay based on overall profits all the time actually.

[S John]

I mean, I can go anecdote for anecdote on this one. My mother has worked in the school system for 15 years as a year-round employee and my aunt is a teacher. My mom loves the summers because she doesn't have to see a teacher again until August. My aunt, a 2nd grade teacher, relaxed the summers away. I realize that there is much more to teaching than classroom time, but they still get more time off than almost any other profession. That's all I'm pointing out here.

[TerraPrime]

And what has happened to private sector employees in Wisconsin during that same period? While you're talking about hiring freezes and pay cuts, a whole lot of folks employed in the private sector actually lost their jobs entirely. Would you feel better if Wisconsin had simply fired enough government workers to balance the budget rather than cutting pay and freezing hiring?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/43111002.html

The original point by Kouran was that public employees had not done anything to share the pain of economic recession. I pointed out that this is not true. Public employees have indeed shared the hardship.

Second, I actually am ok with furloughs and pay freezes as a measure to help balance budgets. In fact, I just voted in my own union to support acceptance to bargain over furlough rather than force the administrators here to start firing people. I will not be affected, due to my employment status, but many of my co-workers would be out of job if we don't allow for the possibility of furlough. So, I voted in solidarity with my co-workers, knowing that I have empowered the possibility of a pay-cut. So you're barking up the wrong tree here if you think I want furloughs and pay freezes to end.

Third, we've had this conversation before over public versus private employment. There is a trade-off between the two worlds. Private sectors are more volatile, but they also get better compensation when times are good. Employment in public sector is less susceptible to job volatility, but we also don't get as much raises or bonuses when times are good. People who choose one sector over the other make the corresponding decision about volatility versus stability. It is, therefore, not fair to say that since private sector employment is high we ought to cut the pay of public sector to make up for it. You can't choose a higher-risk-for-higher-reward model of work and then clamor to have to the cost of that risk paid for by others.

Re: DrownedCrow

I hope I don't need to explain to you how that sentence doesn't make sense. Take a while to think about it and try again. No rush.

I know it doesn't make sense. It is, after all, your argument. I just wasn't sure if you know that your own argument makes no sense or not. I guess now I have the answer.

And if you want to assign blame for the fact that teaching doesn't attract much talent you should probably look to the unions.

You're the one making hay out of that GRE statistics. I'm not that heart-broken that the teaching profession is not drawing college graduates that score in the top 80% of GRE scores. Why? Because being able to teach well is only marginally related to raw intelligence or academic capacity. It has more to do with classroom management skills, and GRE does not test for that. For K-12 teaching, the expertise in the subject matter needs not be more than a college "B" level grade for that subject. Effective teaching is so, so much more, than just having expertise in the subject. Competency, yes. Expertise as in research-level? No.

After all, they have rigidly enforced a system where rewarding performance is forbidden and pay is entirely based on seniority.

This is factually incorrect. Pay scale is also adjusted based on advancement in qualification, such as obtaining a Master's degree in relevant areas.

[Merentha]

Corporations give out bonuses and increases in pay based on overall profits all the time actually.

Indeed. I possibly spoke too hyperbolically there. Surely, though, with all the extra money the corporations have thanks to lowered taxes, the average wage in Wisconsin has gone up recently? Or fallen less slowly?

[Jaxom 1974]

NY Times Editorial on Wisconsin

[Datepalm]

Corporations give out bonuses and increases in pay based on overall profits all the time actually.

Sure they do. To their CEO's.

[The Iceman of the North]

Average teacher salary: 46,390(which seems like a very good salary for someone working three quarters of a year, with excellent pension benefits)

Wow, this is considered a very good salary? This is maybe 25% less than the starting salary for a teacher in Norway, and we have relative low teacher salaries compared with our neighbours.

[Swordfish]

Indeed. I spoke too hyperbolically there. Surely, though, with all the extra money the corporations have thanks to lowered taxes, the average wage in Wisconsin has gone up recently? Or fallen less slowly?

You assume a direct correlation here that simply does not exist.

There are a lot more than two data points involved in any discussion about what happens to additional revenue received by a corporation.

Sure they do. To their CEO's.

Some of them go to CEO's. Certainly.

And some go to employees.

Nevertheless, the point remains that it happens all the time.

Wow, this is considered a very good salary? This is maybe 25% less than the starting salary for a teacher in Norway, and we have relative low teacher salaries compared with our neighbours.

I believe it's close to the national average salary for people who work full time year round. but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. A quick google search was kind of unsatisfying.

And the pension benefit is a HUGE bonus to the overall compensation package.