Grack21 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I don't know if I;d call anything buy Moorcock "thought provoking", considering he's been writing the same story for almost .30 years now. Guy finds magic sword/s. Angst. Meets other people that are him. Kills something. Feels bad. Angst, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkynJay Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Sadly all I know about Moorcock is from a short story by Gaiman. I assumed the guy was dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 Glen Cook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigei Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I don't know if I;d call anything buy Moorcock "thought provoking", considering he's been writing the same story for almost .30 years now. Guy finds magic sword/s. Angst. Meets other people that are him. Kills something. Feels bad. Angst,Wow, really? Exactly how much Moorcock have you even read? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Wow, really? Exactly how much Moorcock have you even read? The first six Eternal Champion collections put out in the 90s. So a good 2000 pages or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterbound Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 The first six Eternal Champion collections put out in the 90s. So a good 2000 pages or so.Hmm.. makes me wonder if you've ever read the Cornelius books, or the Cornell spy novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 Hmm.. makes me wonder if you've ever read the Cornelius books, or the Cornell spy novels.Nope. Are they better?Edit: I guess I should ask if the prose is any different, cause it's his prose that turns me off the most. He's written so much I'm sure some of if it IS thought provoking, but after hearing him bash Tolkien so much and then reading Elric, well, it just kind of fell flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Adder Posted March 1, 2011 Share Posted March 1, 2011 for funThe Atrocity Archives - Charles StrossJohannes Cabal the Necromancer - Jonathon L Howard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigei Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Why would anyone read 2,000 pages of prose that is annoying? Saying Moorcock "always" writes the same thing makes it seem you have read or are familiar with his entire body of work which from your comment makes it clear you really haven't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Why would anyone read 2,000 pages of prose that is annoying? Saying Moorcock "always" writes the same thing makes it seem you have read or are familiar with his entire body of work which from your comment makes it clear you really haven't. I'm stubborn.And if he keeps writing the same thing over and over WHY would I continue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tas Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Kiniro,Do you mainly want fun, or mainly thought provoking? A lot of stuff can be thought-provoking, but not necessarily funny. I'd say for "fun" go mainly for Scott Lynch and Abercrombie, while perhaps R Scott Bakker and Mieville lean more towards thought-provoking. I was going to post a long response on thought provoking epic fantasy / fun epic fantasy, but you got to the point much quicker than I would have. I think some epic fantasy books/series have fun POVs, but lean towards the serious, though-provoking side. ASOIAF has a serious tone, but I would say Tyrion and Arya tend to be fun POVs because of their wit, sense of humor and attitude. I think Chronicles / Legends are both "fun" series with a less serious tone to them, but I am not sure they are that though-provoking or require much analysis. Some people have said The Long Price Quartet, a series which I have recommended several times to people, but if you are looking for a series that is "fun", I don't think this is it. The series takes a serious approach to the decisions people make in their life and the lasting consequences of those decisions. If you want philosphy and multiple layers on top of layers, go for Bakker. A warning though: the author assumes he is far more clever than you are. I have never read Bakker, is he usually more clever than his readers? I get the feeling by how you worded it that you do not think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manmiles Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 I'm stubborn.And if he keeps writing the same thing over and over WHY would I continue?Variations on a theme?I'm a big Moorcock fan and while I admit that there are a lot of his books which do share many similarities (some intentional and themetical, some not), they're never anything less than enjoyable. As he progressed, his writing did progress out of his more commercial, pulp-ish fare such as the original Elric short stories and his Hawkmoon books to the bizarre surrealism and post-apocalyptic weirdness of the Jerry Cornelius novels. Can you honestly compare the Elric stories to the 'Dancers at the End of Time' stuff? Or Hawkmoon to the 'Nomad of the Time-Stream', the novels that effectively created steampunk? Or even 'Behold the Man' to 'Anything else he's written?'His later books are definately a whole lot more evocative and in-depth (Glorianna the Unfullfill'd Queen or his Von Bek novels and especially the later Elric novels) and a good example of this is with the Del Rey series of Elric books that have been coming out the last few years (admittidly, this is what originally turned me off Elric when I was reading the 90s Gollancz reprints of the Eternal Champion stories which published the stories in chronological order instead of publicational order and so the much more detailed and richer stories where broken up by the more primative and pulpier fare) reading the original stories in their own merit did give me a much better appreciation for the character. And also, he admits that he wrote a lot of his early stuff for the money (so he could put it into publishing New Worlds, one of the defining magazines of the 'New Wave' period) and isn't it a lot better for an author who admits that openly and honestly than someone like Terry Goodking who tries to make us buy that he's writing philosophical novels about the human condition?Also... the guy wrote songs for Blue Oyster Cult. That's a free pass in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Variations on a theme?I'm a big Moorcock fan and while I admit that there are a lot of his books which do share many similarities (some intentional and themetical, some not), they're never anything less than enjoyable. As he progressed, his writing did progress out of his more commercial, pulp-ish fare such as the original Elric short stories and his Hawkmoon books to the bizarre surrealism and post-apocalyptic weirdness of the Jerry Cornelius novels. Can you honestly compare the Elric stories to the 'Dancers at the End of Time' stuff? Or Hawkmoon to the 'Nomad of the Time-Stream', the novels that effectively created steampunk? Or even 'Behold the Man' to 'Anything else he's written?'His later books are definately a whole lot more evocative and in-depth (Glorianna the Unfullfill'd Queen or his Von Bek novels and especially the later Elric novels) and a good example of this is with the Del Rey series of Elric books that have been coming out the last few years (admittidly, this is what originally turned me off Elric when I was reading the 90s Gollancz reprints of the Eternal Champion stories which published the stories in chronological order instead of publicational order and so the much more detailed and richer stories where broken up by the more primative and pulpier fare) reading the original stories in their own merit did give me a much better appreciation for the character. And also, he admits that he wrote a lot of his early stuff for the money (so he could put it into publishing New Worlds, one of the defining magazines of the 'New Wave' period) and isn't it a lot better for an author who admits that openly and honestly than someone like Terry Goodking who tries to make us buy that he's writing philosophical novels about the human condition?Also... the guy wrote songs for Blue Oyster Cult. That's a free pass in my book.It's quite possible the out of publication order of the Elric novels you mentioned may have turned me off to them in the first place. And I totally, forgot about nomad of the time streams. Yeah, those were cool. Maybe I Just got a bad sample of his work, I dunno. I'll put him on my authors to try out again after I get my giant pile of books down list.I have to disagree about NotTS creating steam punk. Pretty sure Wild Wild West and Peaek's Titus Alone came out before 1971. I know Moorock would like to believe he invented the English language and sliced bread, but it aint so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I have never read Bakker, is he usually more clever than his readers? I get the feeling by how you worded it that you do not think so.I wouldn't say that Bakker considers himself more clever than his readers. It's rather that he has a very dark view of human beings in general. He is convinced that everybody (himself included) deludes themselves and this is a major topic in all his books. This often makes him appear arrogant when he talks about other people being deluded.Prince of Nothing is also ridiculously over-the-top dark, with very few sympathetic characters, a holy war as the main plot, and tentacle rape demons from outer space (not kidding). It's definitely not for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jurble Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Bakker's definitely more educated than the bulk of his readers, and he's a pretty smart guy, so he's definitely more clever than me. But more clever than all his readers? I dunno. There's probably some readers more clever than him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebastian Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Fixed that for you.Really? I thought there were tentacles involved at the end of TWP. Maybe I'm wrong, I haven't reread that scene in a looong time. :stillsick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoony Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 People are recommending Bakker - but I am not sure if that is a good fit.It is probably closer stylistically to Gene Wolf than to Tolkein - and in my opinion it is a very dense sort of read.Not for everybody - but I am finding that I enjoy it.I would have to agree with the people who are recommending Wheel of Time.There are sci-fi elements to it and some very complex world building - but it also has a lot of the classic tropes seen in Tolkein.I would probably say that the writing style of Wheel of time is actually superior to Wolf or Tolkein. Robert Jordan was very good at seducing the reader into the story with language and descriptions that does not draw undue attention to itself. Making it somewhat more accessible.I have yet to read the Long Prince Quartet - But I will do so soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 People are recommending Bakker - but I am not sure if that is a good fit.It is probably closer stylistically to Gene Wolf than to Tolkein - and in my opinion it is a very dense sort of read.Not for everybody - but I am finding that I enjoy it.I would have to agree with the people who are recommending Wheel of Time.There are sci-fi elements to it and some very complex world building - but it also has a lot of the classic tropes seen in Tolkein.I would probably say that the writing style of Wheel of time is actually superior to Wolf or Tolkein. Robert Jordan was very good at seducing the reader into the story with language and descriptions that does not draw undue attention to itself. Making it somewhat more accessible.I have yet to read the Long Prince Quartet - But I will do so soon enough.No, you did not just say Jordan's writing is better then Wolfe. no. That did not happen, This is not happening. This is not happening. This is not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigei Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 I'm stubborn.And if he keeps writing the same thing over and over WHY would I continue?He doesn't write the same thing over and over. You haven't read his stuff that is different. Oh and manmiles? Stop arguing about Moorcock with someone who is obviously trolling. :P He just has a problem with Moorcock because of Tolkien, just like many other Tolkien fans in this forum.For the rest of the posters here, the Eternal Champion books are all about the same concept and character. Complaining they are all basically the same... duh!Psst... Tolkien always writes the same thing. It's always some evil ring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grack21 Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Uh, excuse me, but I'm A. Not trollingB. Not that big of a Tolkien fan.And if you think all Tolkien wrote about was a evil ring, you just haven't read his stuff that was different. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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