Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)

[SkiesOfAzel]

KVOTHE SHAPED DUMBLEDORE AMIRITE

What part of "gray, not gay" didn't you understand ??? I was actually talking about Denna, but if you ignore the beard you came quite close with your guess.

[The faceless others]

Why was one of Kvothe's sword called Poet killer? Did he kill Ambros Jockis in the end after he became king, erning Kvothe the name kingkiller?

[CryHavoc]

Why was one of Kvothe's sword called Poet killer? Did he kill Ambros Jockis in the end after he became king, erning Kvothe the name kingkiller?

There's also the Poet-King, whoever he is, that mercenary girl kept referring to. And also at the same time the sword is being referred to as Poet Killer, it's also called something that sounds like a simple adulteration of Caesura. (Kaysera, maybe?)

Anyway, my question is who/what is really behind the door. I originally thought it was Iax, but it has to be way worse than him. Whatever it is, it's bad. Like, not just Chandrian bad, but bad bad. Felurian is afraid to name the strongest shaper who is "behind stone doors", and she's not afraid of Iax's name. And since Haliax is out already.... I don't know who it is, but it can't be good; it's holding back the "flood" after all.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the "ring that's not for wearing" is the ring Lackless gave to Kvothe or the ring key she used to open the big box the little box was in? Or something else?

[Gaston de Foix]

This is what I've got. I'm certain the names fit the description of these four:

Cyphus bears the blue flame.

- Obvious

Ferule chill and dark of eye.

- Was there one with white hair and black eyes?

- "In the background there was a bare tree, and he was standing on [water]."

- "There were drifts of snow around him too."

- That seems to describe winter. Maybe he causes winter to appear early.

Alaxel bears the shadows hame.

- "There was a second man, or rather the shape of a man in a great hooded robe. Inside the cowl of the robe was nothing but blackness. Over his head were three moons, a full moon, a half moon, and one that was just a crescent. Next to him were two candles. One was yellow with a bright orange flame. The other candle sat underneath his outstretched hand: it was grey with a black flame, and the space around it was smudged and darkened."

- Shadow is obvious.

- Maybe he only appears when there's a moon. Maybe during moonless nights, he's trapped in Faerie. Or he's afraid to get trapped in Faerie and remains indoors.

Pale Alenta brings the blight

- "a man next to a dead tree"

- Alenta causes plants to die

These three I'm not so certain about.

Usnea lives in nothing but decay.

- And there was a woman…. She blushed. With some of her clothes off.

- The clothes decayed off her body, maybe.

I feel like the Chandrian should have a super-creepy castle to with all these signs.

Cinder, whom we see more of than the others, does noticeably cause the temperature to chill. Kvothe notices in WMF when attacking the camp that it suddenly got very cold. Also, do you think Cinder can walk on water?

Like you, I wonder what the changing moon means for Haliax. Iax is the person you would associate with the changing moon, Haliax neither sleeps nor rests. Maybe he is trying to fully trap the moon in Fae?

Scyphus is described as a magician. Whereas Dalcenti is NOT a namer, since he doesn't speak.

Btw, I noticed in WMF Kvothe vows that he will not speak of what he sees in relation to the Lackless box, but is narrating his story to Chronicler anyhow. Maybe that's another broken vow that's costing him?

[CryHavoc]

I feel like the Chandrian should have a super-creepy castle to with all these signs.

Cinder, whom we see more of than the others, does noticeably cause the temperature to chill. Kvothe notices in WMF when attacking the camp that it suddenly got very cold. Also, do you think Cinder can walk on water?

Like you, I wonder what the changing moon means for Haliax. Iax is the person you would associate with the changing moon, Haliax neither sleeps nor rests. Maybe he is trying to fully trap the moon in Fae?

Scyphus is described as a magician. Whereas Dalcenti is NOT a namer, since he doesn't speak.

Btw, I noticed in WMF Kvothe vows that he will not speak of what he sees in relation to the Lackless box, but is narrating his story to Chronicler anyhow. Maybe that's another broken vow that's costing him?

Maybe with everything that's happened (I think it's pretty clear the Lackless puzzles have been solved, to some disastrous end) secrecy isn't important anymore?

Also, maybe Cinder can walk on water because he freezes it?

[Gaston de Foix]

There's also the Poet-King, whoever he is, that mercenary girl kept referring to. And also at the same time the sword is being referred to as Poet Killer, it's also called something that sounds like a simple adulteration of Caesura. (Kaysera, maybe?)

Anyway, my question is who/what is really behind the door. I originally thought it was Iax, but it has to be way worse than him. Whatever it is, it's bad. Like, not just Chandrian bad, but bad bad. Felurian is afraid to name the strongest shaper who is "behind stone doors", and she's not afraid of Iax's name. And since Haliax is out already.... I don't know who it is, but it can't be good; it's holding back the "flood" after all.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the "ring that's not for wearing" is the ring Lackless gave to Kvothe or the ring key she used to open the big box the little box was in? Or something else?

I'm a little confused as well with the idea that Iax is the Big Bad. Not because stealing the moon isn't wrong, but because it's a heavy step from I will steal the moon because I can, to I will unleash demons on the world and kill the majority of the world's population just because some people were all like, you stole the moon, you bad boy. So far we have three villians, neither of whom particularly seem like they fit the bill of being able to or wanting to destroy the whole of the world. Ctaeh, trapped in a tree. Haliax, randomly kills people who discover things about him, otherwise, five thousand years and his attempts to end the world haven't gone anywhere much. Iax, beyond doors of stone plus why would a human decide to destroy the world?.

My own best guess is as follows.

In the beginning there was Aleph who knew the names of all things, or who shaped all things and gave them names.

Golden Age of Naming

There were the Knowers, those who learn the names of all things and used the power sparingly, i.e. they created a path through the sea so they could cross, and then let the sea fall back again.

Then came the Shapers, who saw the deep names of things and changed them to suit there purposes. They invented technology and could shape basic forces/elements to their purposes. Chael shapes iron to be free from rust/stronger/sharper and creates Caesura. uberKilvin forces a flame to burn forever by trapping fire in a void where it cannot escape/somehow forcing the process of burning to cycle back into itself thereby continuously refeeding the flame. The Knowers are masters of the elements but the shapers can create devices that don't let fire or wind penetrate (see for instance Elodin's room in the Rookery and what Kilvin shows Kvothe).

Iax comes along and creates Fae. Fae has no moon, so people from other worlds can cross over and Fae is populated by the skin dancers and other undesirables.

He sees the moon and wants it in Fae. Not because he is in love with the moon, but because the moon would prevent people from crossing over from different worlds/realms/ etc into Fae. He wants that protection for the world he has made. He tries to pull the moon into Fae by locking its name in a box. Alternatively, Iax tries to shape the moon to be in two places at once or tries to create a new moon/split the moon in half. Either way the waning/waxing of the mooon begins.

The moon protected the world from creatures from other worlds crossing over, but when the moon was stolen, the demons came. Encanis and his ilk were an entirely different species who treat humans as cattle and want to conquer the world. The Creation War starts. Many shapers retreat to Fae including Felurian. The waxing and waning of the moon brings death by natural causes into the world. Those who have left before the theft of the moon continue to be immortal. The Namers stay to fight. Lanre and Lyra turn the tide of the war and Ergen endures.

Lanre dies and returns. The war is won. Tehlu plays a role in that victory. The enemy is put beyond the doors of stone. Iax is locked away as well. The keys are kept by the Loecleos, the doorkeepers who are told to keep the keys in case of nuclear accident or whatever.

Lyra dies. Lanre goes searching for the secret of immortality hoping to bring Lyra back. Instead he becomes immortal himself and can no longer die. His immortality is functionally different from those who have become of the Fae. They do not age. He cannot die. He speaks to the Ctaeth who either tells him that the race of demons can help him, or he is told Iax can help him. Either Iax, out of malice, betrays Haliax, or the demons do. Haliax decides to destroy the world.

Ergen, save for one city, falls. The remnant of that city, the Ruach, come before Aleph and he divides them into two groups, one to bring justice in the world and protect it, and the other to avenge Myr Tariniel and become the Amyr and act for the greater good. The angels guard the gateways into the world and prevent demons or other races from entering.

Silver Age of Naming

The University is created by the Namers to preserve their lore, possibly even by Teccam.

Taborlin the Great has his confrontation with the Chandrian but escapes.

Naming dwindles as knowledge is lost. Caluptena burns. The Aturan Empire falls. The Loeclos inheritance is lost.

Current Age begins

[Gaston de Foix]

Maybe with everything that's happened (I think it's pretty clear the Lackless puzzles have been solved, to some disastrous end) secrecy isn't important anymore?

Also, maybe Cinder can walk on water because he freezes it?

CryHavoc, the only poets we have seen are Sim and Geoffrey (Denna's friend, very minor character). I can't fathom why Kvothe would kill them. It's clear Ambrose isn't much of a poet. Besides if Kvothe killed the King (who we all presume to be Ambrose) with Caesura, the sword would be called Kingkiller wouldn't it? WHen you kill a poet-king you expect people to remember the kingliness of the man, not his bad poetry.

[Zizoz]

Do we have any indication that there are such things as demons? Encanis as described in Trapis' story certainly seems to be based on Haliax; there are other similarities as well between Trapis' and Skarpi's stories, for instance the seven cities and one surviving, IIRC.

[AverageGuy]

You are right, maybe we overdid it with Manet.

I'm not overdoing it. I'm just going by what's in the book. Pg. 937 (Ch. 143 for you e-book people):

"Old Manet is a workhorse," he said politely.

QED, bitches.

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on whether the "ring that's not for wearing" is the ring Lackless gave to Kvothe or the ring key she used to open the big box the little box was in? Or something else?

I figure everything in the rhyme is something you have to get past to open the door. So the ring not for wearing is either her key or the lock the key goes in. I doubt it's the wooden ring she sends Kvothe because a ring with her name carved into it just doesn't seem like a millenia-old heirloom, and besides, she would never send a family heirloom off to one of the Ruh anyway.

[CryHavoc]

Do we have any indication that there are such things as demons? Encanis as described in Trapis' story certainly seems to be based on Haliax; there are other similarities as well between Trapis' and Skarpi's stories, for instance the seven cities and one surviving, IIRC.

I think the only serious talk we get of demons is from Trapis and the Book of the Path. I think Ben mentions them when he's pointing out to Kvothe's parents that some people fear fae and some shamblemen and some demons, but everyone fears the Chandrian. Since the fae are real in that little conversation, and the shamblemen presumably not, it's hard to tell if demons actually exist, but I don't think we've ever seen proof. Presumably all the supernatural creatures we've seen fall into the categories of fae and chandrian so far, with the exception of the scrael, which I don't think are demons. Even the skin dancer thing is presumably fae of a sort, from the Mael. There may be something "worse" out there that we don't know about, and there may be creatures from a "pocket" dimension other than fae, but I don't think we've ever seen demons of the usual hellfire sort.

Grinachu:

I don't really know why it would be called Poet Killer. The only person I can think of who you'd actually name as a poet is the Poet King. Like you said, poet isn't what comes to mind when you think of Ambrose, and short of Kvothe going totally freaking nuts I don't see him killing Sim.

[Gaston de Foix]

I think the only serious talk we get of demons is from Trapis and the Book of the Path. I think Ben mentions them when he's pointing out to Kvothe's parents that some people fear fae and some shamblemen and some demons, but everyone fears the Chandrian. Since the fae are real in that little conversation, and the shamblemen presumably not, it's hard to tell if demons actually exist, but I don't think we've ever seen proof. Presumably all the supernatural creatures we've seen fall into the categories of fae and chandrian so far, with the exception of the scrael, which I don't think are demons. Even the skin dancer thing is presumably fae of a sort, from the Mael. There may be something "worse" out there that we don't know about, and there may be creatures from a "pocket" dimension other than fae, but I don't think we've ever seen demons of the usual hellfire sort.

Grinachu:

I don't really know why it would be called Poet Killer. The only person I can think of who you'd actually name as a poet is the Poet King. Like you said, poet isn't what comes to mind when you think of Ambrose, and short of Kvothe going totally freaking nuts I don't see him killing Sim.

To support you on the question of demons, CryHavoc we also have Bast's statement at the end of NOTW, that there are no such things as demons, only his kind, the Fae.

You also have the fact that the Ctaeth which is one of the oddest creatures around, can't stand iron and is so presumably Fae.

In my support, well you have the well-entrenched Tehlin theology, which is obviously not conclusive proof. But still that we are being told of demons is significant. We also have the story narrated by Skarpi that Lanre defeated a beast with scales of black iron whose breath smothered men. That is what I was thinking of when I named demons who fed on men.

As I see it, there are three narrative problems.

1. Where do the Fae come from?

2. Where do the persistent stories of other creatures come from?

3. Who was the adversary in the Creation War?

It's fine to say the Shapers were the adversary, but why? Why would the Namers and the Shapers enlist all of the rest of humanity in the struggle? The carnage can only be explained by a Big Bad. In a way whether they were a particular kind of Fae doesn't change their demonic characteristics.

[TeaSpoon]

To support you on the question of demons, CryHavoc we also have Bast's statement at the end of NOTW, that there are no such things as demons, only his kind, the Fae.

You also have the fact that the Ctaeth which is one of the oddest creatures around, can't stand iron and is so presumably Fae.

In my support, well you have the well-entrenched Tehlin theology, which is obviously not conclusive proof. But still that we are being told of demons is significant. We also have the story narrated by Skarpi that Lanre defeated a beast with scales of black iron whose breath smothered men. That is what I was thinking of when I named demons who fed on men.

As I see it, there are three narrative problems.

1. Where do the Fae come from?

2. Where do the persistent stories of other creatures come from?

3. Who was the adversary in the Creation War?

It's fine to say the Shapers were the adversary, but why? Why would the Namers and the Shapers enlist all of the rest of humanity in the struggle? The carnage can only be explained by a Big Bad. In a way whether they were a particular kind of Fae doesn't change their demonic characteristics.

There's no question what the creation war was about. Namers vs. Shapers. We have Felurians as a first hand witness.

"I heard a story once," I said. "About a man who stole the moon."

Felurian’s expression went solemn. She unlaced her fingers from mine and looked down at the stone in her hand. “that was the end of it all.” She sighed. “until he stole the moon there was some hope for peace.”

[unimportant Stuff]

Felurian looked up at the slender moon for a moment, then said. "long before the cities of man. before men. before fae. there were those who walked with their eyes open. they knew all the deep names of things." She paused and looked at me. "do you know what this means?"

"When you know the name of a thing you have mastery over it," I said.

"no," she said, startling me with the weight of rebuke in her voice. "mastery was not given. they had the deep knowing of things. not mastery. to swim is not mastery over the water. to eat an apple is not mastery of the apple." She gave me a sharp look. "do you understand?"

I didn’t. But I nodded anyway, not wanting to upset her or sidetrack the story.

"these old name-knowers moved smoothly through the world. they knew the fox and they knew the hare, and they knew the space between the two."

She drew a deep breath and let it out in a sigh. "then came those who saw a thing and thought of changing it. they thought in terms of mastery.

"they were shapers. proud dreamers." She made a conciliatory gesture. "and it was not all bad at first. there were wonders." Her face lit with memory and her fingers gripped my arm excitedly. "once, sitting on the walls of murella, I ate fruit from a silver tree. it shone, and in the dark you could mark the mouth and eyes of all those who had tasted it!"

[Murella was not in the Fae. Felurian is very old.]

Mollified, she continued, "the fruit was but the first of it. the early toddlings of a child. they grew bolder, braver, wild. the old knowers said 'stop,' but the shapers refused. they quarreled and fought and forbade the shapers. they argued against mastery of this sort." Her eyes brightened. "but oh," she sighed, "the things they made!"

[Comedic Misunderstanding]

She laughed at my tone. "no. the faen realm." she waved widely. "wrought according to their will. the greatest of them sewed it from whole cloth. a place where they could do as they desired. and at the end of all their work, each shaper wrought a star to fill their new and empty sky."

Felurian smiled at me. "then there were two worlds. two skies. two sets of stars." She held up the smooth stone. "but still one moon. and it all round and cozy in the mortal sky."

Her smile faded. "but one shaper was greater than the rest. for him the making of a star was not enough. he stretched his will across the world and pulled her from her home."

Lifting the smooth stone to the sky, Felurian carefully closed one eye. She tilted her head as if trying to fit the curve of the stone into the empty arms of the crescent moon above us. "that was the breaking point. the old knowers realized no talk would ever stop the shapers." Her hand dropped back into the water. "he stole the moon and with it came the war."

So, the namers wanted the shapers to stop fucking with the natural order and the laws of physics. The shapers refused. Then the fighting started.

[Slick Mongoose]

The Cthaeth isn't anyone! It's an evil sooth-saying tree! If anything, it's the Joker. Kvothe is Batman, the Chandrian are the gangster that killed Batman's parents. Elodin is Alfred. Denna is Catwoman.

Tehlu is Ra's al Ghul.

[Gaston de Foix]

There's no question what the creation war was about. Namers vs. Shapers. We have Felurians as a first hand witness.

So, the namers wanted the shapers to stop fucking with the natural order and the laws of physics. The shapers refused. Then the fighting started.

well the passage doesn't say outright it was Namers v Shapers. The Namers decided they had enough. The moon was stolen. War came. That's all you can take from the passage. But I agree it is the logical conclusion that the war was the Namers v Shapers.

Just to put this argument through its paces, the Shapers created the demonic entity in Skarpi's story which Lanre killed? The people who made fruits with memories imprinted in them decided to unleash armageddon on the world and kill off most of the living population?

Maybe they did. But there has to be more to explain the entire turning away from humanity on the part of the Shapers. And how Felurian can be Fae and older than Fae.

In a way, if Chael made Caesura and then turned away from violence entirely, that would explain him casting it away. The other alternative is of course there is some flaw in Caesura.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

grinachu,

CryHavoc, the only poets we have seen are Sim and Geoffrey (Denna's friend, very minor character). I can't fathom why Kvothe would kill them. It's clear Ambrose isn't much of a poet. Besides if Kvothe killed the King (who we all presume to be Ambrose) with Caesura, the sword would be called Kingkiller wouldn't it? WHen you kill a poet-king you expect people to remember the kingliness of the man, not his bad poetry.

I don't know that we can say with certainty Ambrose isn't much of a poet. Kvothe, and his Dad, don't like poetry to begin with so anything poetry from Kvothe's perspective is going to be seen negatively regardless of it's quality. Also, Ambrose's work may improve with time. You cannot forget that Kvothe isn't an entirely reliable narrator.

[TeaSpoon]

In the beginning there was Aleph who knew the names of all things, or who shaped all things and gave them names.

I doubt Aleph actually made the world. I think it's more likely he's an important historical figure. Maybe the emperor of Ergen or a powerful shaper.

Golden Age of Naming

There were the Knowers, those who learn the names of all things and used the power sparingly, i.e. they created a path through the sea so they could cross, and then let the sea fall back again.

I'd caution you presenting examples as canon. I get what you're saying. The namers made no permanent changes, but the book made no mention of a Moses stunt.

Then came the Shapers, who saw the deep names of things and changed them to suit there purposes. They invented technology and could shape basic forces/elements to their purposes. Chael shapes iron to be free from rust/stronger/sharper and creates Caesura. uberKilvin forces a flame to burn forever by trapping fire in a void where it cannot escape/somehow forcing the process of burning to cycle back into itself thereby continuously refeeding the flame. The Knowers are masters of the elements but the shapers can create devices that don't let fire or wind penetrate (see for instance Elodin's room in the Rookery and what Kilvin shows Kvothe).

I'm not certain they invented technology. Like Felurian says, to swim is not to have mastery over water. To build a waterwheel to grind flour is not mastery over water or stone or grain. Therefore, technology isn't mastery, just using the laws of physics to make life easier.

Similarly, I don't think naming is mastery either, though there is some degree of control. The wind is free and insubstantial and complex. Throwing an asshole poet to the ground isn't against its nature, even though the wind wouldn't have done it if Kvothe hadn't told it to. Making a whirlwind that stays in one place and doesn't ever stop spinning, regardless of time and atmospheric conditions, that would be considered shaping.

Also, I'm not certain that's the theory behind the ever-burning lamp, and neither are you.

Iax comes along and creates Fae. Fae has no moon, so people from other worlds can cross over and Fae is populated by the skin dancers and other undesirables.

This is wild conjecture. There's no evidence, or even hint, that Iax was trying to keep undesirables out of Faerie by stealing the moon. And while I don't think the pre-Faerie people were quite human (in the sense that humans aren't immortal), I also don't think the Fae existed in their present form, which is to say as Skin Dancers, Dennerlings, Trows, etc.

I think they were shaped to be foot soldiers in the creation war. This, of course, is conjecture.

Also, Fae was created by many, many, many shapers. One for every single star in the Fae realm. Iax was the first and the strongest. See the fragment I posted above.

He sees the moon and wants it in Fae. Not because he is in love with the moon, but because the moon would prevent people from crossing over from different worlds/realms/ etc into Fae. He wants that protection for the world he has made. He tries to pull the moon into Fae by locking its name in a box. Alternatively, Iax tries to shape the moon to be in two places at once or tries to create a new moon/split the moon in half. Either way the waning/waxing of the mooon begins.

See above. And I don't think it was a literal box (the concept of which came from the Hespe's moon story), just like how the folding house wasn't really a house but the Fae realms.

The moon protected the world from creatures from other worlds crossing over, but when the moon was stolen, the demons came. Encanis and his ilk were an entirely different species who treat humans as cattle and want to conquer the world. The Creation War starts. Many shapers retreat to Fae including Felurian. The waxing and waning of the moon brings death by natural causes into the world. Those who have left before the theft of the moon continue to be immortal. The Namers stay to fight. Lanre and Lyra turn the tide of the war and Ergen endures.

Yeah, I don't think the lack of moon gave rise to demons, which I'm not even sure existed. Encanis is only mentioned by the Tehlin priests and by no one else. Not Skarpi or Felurian or Elodin or Auri or anyone not involved in the church. Not to mention that the weakness to iron suggests Fae. And Encanis wasn't involved in the Creation War.

The story about Tehlu beating Encanis happened, if it happened at all, after the creation war, when Tehlu was already an Angel.

And there's no hint, none at all, that the moon has anything to do with mortality. The moon stays the same amount of time in Faerie as it does in the mortal world, which would suggest that the Fae have the same life span as humans, if your theory was correct.

Lanre dies and returns. The war is won. Tehlu plays a role in that victory. The enemy is put beyond the doors of stone. Iax is locked away as well. The keys are kept by the Loecleos, the doorkeepers who are told to keep the keys in case of nuclear accident or whatever.

Tehlu wasn't even mentioned in Skarpi's first story, (which isn't to say that he played no role, but his absence is telling.) He was only present in the aftermath. The enemy present at Drosson Tor was put beyond the doors of stone and I think enemies present at other battles were similarly locked away, either in this same prison or different ones.

I agree with theory that the Loeclos are guards of some sort, though it's still only a theory.

Lyra dies. Lanre goes searching for the secret of immortality hoping to bring Lyra back. Instead he becomes immortal himself and can no longer die. His immortality is functionally different from those who have become of the Fae. They do not age. He cannot die. He speaks to the Ctaeth who either tells him that the race of demons can help him, or he is told Iax can help him. Either Iax, out of malice, betrays Haliax, or the demons do. Haliax decides to destroy the world.

Nope, this happened during the creation war. Skarpi was very clear about that. And there's no suggestion that the Ctaeth pointed him to demons, whom we don't even know really exist, or Iax. Even though the latter is a pretty good theory. And we don't know that, if Haliax actually went to Iax, whether Iax betrayed Haliax.

It's more likely that Haliax wants to destroy the world because he's in great pain that he cannot escape from by sleeping, forgetting, going insane, or even dying. It's like if Kvothe could not escape the memory of finding his family dead and has to relive it every moment of every day FOREVER, unable to sleep or forget or go insane.

Ergen, save for one city, falls. The remnant of that city, the Ruach, come before Aleph and he divides them into two groups, one to bring justice in the world and protect it, and the other to avenge Myr Tariniel and become the Amyr and act for the greater good. The angels guard the gateways into the world and prevent demons or other races from entering.

Aleph didn't create the Amyr. He just watched while Selitos took it upon himself to hunt chandrians and to prevent injustice. The angels to bring justice, but I'm not certain they also guard the gateways to Fae (or whatever gateways you're talking about, because I'm still not sure demons exist).

Silver Age of Naming

The University is created by the Namers to preserve their lore, possibly even by Teccam.

Taborlin the Great has his confrontation with the Chandrian but escapes.

Naming dwindles as knowledge is lost. Caluptena burns. The Aturan Empire falls. The Loeclos inheritance is lost.

Other than Teccam being mentioned all the fucking time, we have no clue who founded the University. And the current University was founded on the ashes (or ruins) of an even older University.

[TeaSpoon]

well the passage doesn't say outright it was Namers v Shapers. The Namers decided they had enough. The moon was stolen. War came. That's all you can take from the passage. But I agree it is the logical conclusion that the war was the Namers v Shapers.

Just to put this argument through its paces, the Shapers created the demonic entity in Skarpi's story which Lanre killed? The people who made fruits with memories imprinted in them decided to unleash armageddon on the world and kill off most of the living population?

Maybe they did. But there has to be more to explain the entire turning away from humanity on the part of the Shapers. And how Felurian can be Fae and older than Fae.

In a way, if Chael made Caesura and then turned away from violence entirely, that would explain him casting it away. The other alternative is of course there is some flaw in Caesura.

By that logic, humanity is incapable of war and the atrocities of war. Germany couldn't have gassed millions of jews because I'm certain, absolutely certain that there were good people in Germany between 1939 and 1945. I mean, look at the craftsmanship of their cars!

Okay, bad example. The shapers were probably nothing like nazis.

Stuff happens during war. Whatever the cause, if you spend a few years watching your friends and families die, you become capable of horrible things. The creation war went on for generations. Imagine being born knowing you'd fight and die in war, because your parents did the same, and your parents' parents, and so on for a dozen generations. Imagine never having known peace.

We know from history that humanity has done some terrible, terrible things. And we didn't have control over elemental forces and the ability to change the nature of reality.

[jaerken]

grinachu,

I don't know that we can say with certainty Ambrose isn't much of a poet. Kvothe, and his Dad, don't like poetry to begin with so anything poetry from Kvothe's perspective is going to be seen negatively regardless of it's quality. Also, Ambrose's work may improve with time. You cannot forget that Kvothe isn't an entirely reliable narrator.

Don't discount Ambrose as a poet, just about every non-Kvothe character has talked about his poetry at one point in the two books. It's not about quality, it's about station and power. What are Ambrose's characteristics? Jackass, cruel, arrogant, poet, scriv, etc. If he became a king he could hardly be the Jackass King, so even though he's not any good, I think he = the poet king.

But all this is just hiding one fundamental truth: Manet, son of Chael, is the crazy Russian that Christopher and Paulie lost in the Pine Barrens during Season 3.

[unJon]

Ambrose can't be the Poet King. The Poet King already exists and Kvothe's Adem teacher lady worked for him. I suppose Ambrose could become some second poet king, but that seems unnecessary. We already know of a Poet King.

[AverageGuy]

Ambrose can't be the Poet King. The Poet King already exists and Kvothe's Adem teacher lady worked for him. I suppose Ambrose could become some second poet king, but that seems unnecessary. We already know of a Poet King.

I'm trying to remember. We know they call the sword the poet slayer, and we know Kvothe kills a king. Do we know the poet and the king are the same person?