Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)

[thistlepong]

You're perfectly willing to be rigorous about this, so I encourage you to attend closely to Skarpi's second story. It seems irresponsible to assume what's going on there is the creation of angels. The scene certainly calls to mind external texts we have experience with, but we have no reason to bring them to bear.

Eleven names are mentioned. Amyr are mentioned. Angels are not mentioned. In fact, they are never, ever, mentioned in the texts except where subordinate to Tehlu.

Further, please cite where "watchers" are referred to. Cinder tells Haliax he's "as good as a watcher." However, we have no referent watcher in that statement.

[Gaston de Foix]

You're perfectly willing to be rigorous about this, so I encourage you to attend closely to Skarpi's second story. It seems irresponsible to assume what's going on there is the creation of angels. The scene certainly calls to mind external texts we have experience with, but we have no reason to bring them to bear.

Eleven names are mentioned. Amyr are mentioned. Angels are not mentioned. In fact, they are never, ever, mentioned in the texts except where subordinate to Tehlu.

Further, please cite where "watchers" are referred to. Cinder tells Haliax he's "as good as a watcher." However, we have no referent watcher in that statement.

". . . Selitos One-Eye stood forward and said, "Lord, if I do this thing will I be given the power to avenge the loss of the shining city? Can I confound the plots of Lanre and his Chandrian who killed the innocent and burned my beloved Myr Tariniel?" Aleph said, "No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth." Selitos bowed his head. "I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later." Some of the Ruach murmured agreement with Selitos and went to stand with him, for they remembered Myr Tariniel and were filled with rage and hurt at Lanre's betrayal. Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him. "I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good." Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too. They were afraid, and they did not wish to become involved in great matters. But Tehlu stood forward saying, "I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you." He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides. Others came forward. Tall Kirel, who had been burned but left living in the ash of Myr Tariniel. Deah, who had lost two husbands to the fighting,

and whose face and mouth and heart were hard and cold as stone. Enlas, who would not carry a sword or eat the flesh of animals, and who no man had ever known to speak hard words. Fair Geisa, who had a hundred suitors in Belen before the walls fell. The first woman to know the unasked-for touch of man. Lecelte, who laughed easily and often, even when there was woe thick about him. Imet, hardly more than a boy, who never sang and killed swiftly without tears. Ordal, the youngest of them all, who had never seen a thing die, stood bravely before Aleph, her golden hair bright with ribbon. And beside her came Andan, whose face was a mask with burning eyes, whose name meant anger. They came to Aleph, and he touched them. He touched their hands and

eyes and hearts. The last time he touched them there was pain, and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow. Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood. Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight.None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril. They mete out justice to the world, and Tehlu is the greatest of them all—"

Thistle I've reproduced the passage above. It seems crystal clear to me that it is the creation of angels that is occuring. I know you've read this passage, probably multiple times. So I'll tell you why I see it as the creation of angels.

Let's take it slow.

1. Andan and Ordal are names of angels (Source: WMF, conversation with Nina where Nina's paper from the book of the path has both names and this story).

2. They exist in another realm.

3. They can only punish or reward depending on what they see witness with their own eyes.

4. Only the most powerful can see them, and then with great difficulty and peril.

5. It would make sense if they can only punish or reward what they themselves witness, for them to call themselves watchers and for the Chandrian to be wary of them.

The description clearly matches western concepts of angels. wings to travel swiftly etc etc.

[jurble]

If we posit there are no demons, there is no reason for angels.

Tehlins are the only folk who refer to either; and in those cases they are Tehlu's angels.

Tehlins neither recognize nor mention Aleph, ever.

Kvothe mentions Aleph who either spun the world from nothing and gave everything a name or found the names all things alrewady possessed, depending on the version. And both Skarpi's stories feature Aleph. That's it, though.

Chronicler doesn't contradict him because he already agreed not to.

The Tehlin version and Skarpi's version are incommensurate. Skarpi's story is cut off when it definitively states that Aleph transformed Tehlu into /(whatever)/; not before.

Only in the Tehlin version are there demons, angels, and a god; and Tehlu is the god.

The Chandrian are not demons. The Chandrian are not afraid of angels. Neither exist.

Angels definitely exist. The Tehlins believe that Angels are religious figures, while the Skarpic (and thus Amyr-version) of the story is that the Angels are judges appointed by Aleph. But Tehlu definitely has wings. And Cinder was looking at the sky when that tracker was screaming "TEHLU OH TEHLU" over and over.

[CryHavoc]

Angels definitely exist. The Tehlins believe that Angels are religious figures, while the Skarpic (and thus Amyr-version) of the story is that the Angels are judges appointed by Aleph. But Tehlu definitely has wings. And Cinder was looking at the sky when that tracker was screaming "TEHLU OH TEHLU" over and over.

I agree that we've had angels confirmed from a non-Tehlin source, which is good enough for me. But I find it interesting that they don't wind up in the list of things the Haliax protects the Chandrian from. I doubt they could be the Sithe (though there is the anecdote of the winged creature overhead in Fae) because the Sithe kill anyone who go near the tree; that's proactive, and the angels are supposed to be reactive. Maybe they could be the singers, but I don't think we've seen anything that indicates that link. So either the Chandrian don't fear the angels (which they probably do, because Cinder looks concerned when Marten starts screaming about Tehlu), or Haliax doesn't protect them from them.

[Slick Mongoose]

I agree that we've had angels confirmed from a non-Tehlin source, which is good enough for me. But I find it interesting that they don't wind up in the list of things the Haliax protects the Chandrian from. I doubt they could be the Sithe (though there is the anecdote of the winged creature overhead in Fae) because the Sithe kill anyone who go near the tree; that's proactive, and the angels are supposed to be reactive. Maybe they could be the singers, but I don't think we've seen anything that indicates that link. So either the Chandrian don't fear the angels (which they probably do, because Cinder looks concerned when Marten starts screaming about Tehlu), or Haliax doesn't protect them from them.

I'm still under the impression that the angels are the "true" Amyr. :unsure:

[thistlepong]

I'm still under the impression that the angels are the "true" Amyr. :unsure:

Without claiming you're supporting my point, I want to assert that this is what I'm saying: that the Amyr are the angels in the Tehlin mythology. And that Tehlu is one of them.

[CryHavoc]

Without claiming you're supporting my point, I want to assert that this is what I'm saying: that the Amyr are the angels in the Tehlin mythology. And that Tehlu is one of them.

If not for Skarpi's story, I'd agree. I'm inclined to think of anything the Tehlin church says as the creation war re-written to make Tehlu sound awesome until proven otherwise. But Skarpi makes a distinction between them, and if there isn't one I don't know what his motivation would be.

[john]

Hang on,

Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold.

The star on the forehead thing, isn't that what happened to Kvothe in his "fight" with Felurian?

[Slick Mongoose]

"My power rode like a white star on my brow"

[thistlepong]

If not for Skarpi's story, I'd agree. I'm inclined to think of anything the Tehlin church says as the creation war re-written to make Tehlu sound awesome until proven otherwise. But Skarpi makes a distinction between them, and if there isn't one I don't know what his motivation would be.

He doesn't.

I know this is a major point of contention, perhaps the whole of the disagreement. And I know mine is a minority interpretation here.

Some of the Ruach murmured agreement with Selitos and went to stand with him, for they remembered Myr Tariniel and were filled with rage and hurt at Lanre's betrayal. Selitos went to Aleph and knelt before him. "I must refuse, for I cannot forget. But I will oppose him with these faithful Ruach beside me. I see their hearts are pure. We will be called the Amyr in memory of the ruined city. We will confound Lanre and any who follow him. Nothing will prevent us from attaining the greater good." Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too. They were afraid, and they did not wish to become involved in great matters. But Tehlu stood forward saying, "I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave this world behind that I might better serve it, serving you."

Nowhere in the narrative does it say any of these folk stood forward to accept Aleph's offer. Some hang back from Selitos, but Tehlu steps forward. Then I'm pretty sure he addresses Selitos. Then he kneels. Then more come forward.

They came to Aleph, and he touched them.

At the risk of getting all grammatical, if Selitos wasn't in the group, the story should say he touched some of them, or all of them but Selitos and his Amyr.

[jurble]

The story is straight forward:

Aleph comes to the survivors of Myr Tyriniel and offers to turn them into Angels if they accept to forgo all past grievances and judge the word in the real-time. Selitos comes forward to Aleph and is like "Nope, sorry, we're going to kill bad guys before they kill people, not after they kill people. And we're the Amyr, yo." And then everyone groups up together with Selitos. But then Tehlu is like "Screw them guys, I'll take your Aleph." And afterwards some other dudes come forward, and Aleph turns them and Tehlu into Angels.

But Amyr are not Angels. And Angels are not Amyr. The Amyr reject Aleph, while the Angels accepted his deal.

The philosophies of both groups are opposite:

Angels judge people for their crimes.

Amyr kill people before they commit crimes.

The Chandrian do not fear the Angels for the same reason a random murderer on the street doesn't fear the Angels - Angels probably only come in person when the need is massively great - on the scale of Holocaust level murder, and the Chandrian generally don't do that. Moreover, the Angels are not in Kvotheworld, they have some sort of other place, maybe a space-station like the Justice League. So it takes them a while to arrive on the scene - like Cinder had more than enough time to escape.

[Migey]

I just finished the book and enjoyed it.

As soon as i read this thread (well, some of it) i was stunned by the amount you guys seem to pick up on. I havn't picked up about 9/10ths of what you guys have.

While this book was better then the first one, one thing that still nagged me is the slightly too high suspension of disbelief required to read this. Its a good story. Both the young kvothe and the kote/kvothe one are enjoyable. But the story WE are being told is the kote/kvothe one. Kvothe himself is telling us the young kvothe story. And i find it slightly hard to swallow that he can remember exactly how he misplaced his left heel in the thirty-somethingth form of the ketan, and exactly how many mistakes tempi picked up on, etc.

Of course its stupid of me, and i know it is just me, but it keeps nagging at me >.<

[jurble]

Kvothe himself is telling us the young kvothe story. And i find it slightly hard to swallow that he can remember exactly how he misplaced his left heel in the thirty-somethingth form of the ketan, and exactly how many mistakes tempi picked up on, etc.

He makes it up. The story is mostly true, but Kvothe is telling a story here, and he needs to add flavor.

[thistlepong]

The story is straight forward:

Aleph comes to the survivors of Myr Tyriniel and offers to turn them into Angels if they accept to forgo all past grievances and judge the word in the real-time.

Really? Where did you read that?

It's not there.

Moreover, the Angels are not in Kvotheworld, they have some sort of other place, maybe a space-station like the Justice League. So it takes them a while to arrive on the scene - like Cinder had more than enough time to escape.

Really?

Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight. None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril.

[jurble]

Really? Where did you read that?

It's not there.

Aleph said,"No. All personal things must be set aside, and you must punish or reward only what you yourself witness from this day forth."

Pretty clear.

Selitos bowed his head. "I am sorry, but my heart says to me I must try to stop these things before they are done, not wait and punish later."

Even clearer. This is the fundamental difference between the Angels and Amyr.

[AverageGuy]

Who is the last person, who remembered the Lethani? We haven't been told yet.

The major figures from that time so far are Iax, Lyra, Lanre, Selitos, Aleph, and Tehlu. Maybe one of the last three?

Most of the Ruach hung back from Selitos, too.

Part of the problem is that we come in at the middle of the stoy. But the "too" seems significant to me. That means they were already hanging back from someone else. I'm reading it like this: Aleph offers to make the Ruach angels. They hesitate and hang back from Aleph. Selitos then says they should be more pro-active in opposing the Chandrian, some Ruach join him, they refuse Aleph's offer and form the Amyr. But most of the Ruach hang back from Selitos, "too." Finally Tehlu steps forward. I don't think he's stepping forward to join Selitos -- Selitos already has followers standing with him -- I think he's stepping forward to join Aleph. So I'm for the theory of angels and Amyr being different.

[nonman_erratic]

They came to Aleph, and he touched them. He touched their hands and

eyes and hearts. The last time he touched them there was pain, and wings tore from their backs that they might go where they wished. Wings of fire and shadow. Wings of iron and glass. Wings of stone and blood. Then Aleph spoke their long names and they were wreathed in a white fire. The fire danced along their wings and they became swift. The fire flickered in their eyes and they saw into the deepest hearts of men. The fire filled their mouths and they sang songs of power. Then the fire settled on their foreheads like silver stars and they became at once righteous and wise and terrible to behold. Then the fire consumed them and they were gone forever from mortal sight.None but the most powerful can see them, and only then with great difficulty and at great peril. They mete out justice to the world, and Tehlu is the greatest of them all—"

It was mentioned previously, but based on the above "and they sang songs of power," it is reasonable to speculate that the "Angels" as described may in fact be the "Singers" mentioned by Haliaz in TNOTW (Who protects you from the Amyr, the singers, the Sithe). I currently favour this speculation.

I agree that they are only described as "Angels" in Tehlin theological stories. I also agree that their description is meant to evoke visions of stereotypical angels in us, the readers.

But Amyr are not Angels. And Angels are not Amyr. The Amyr reject Aleph, while the Angels accepted his deal.

The philosophies of both groups are opposite:

Angels judge people for their crimes.

Amyr kill people before they commit crimes.

The philosophy described by Jurble certainly is my impression of the Amyr. I think it sums up the implied difference between the Amyr and so-called Angels very well.

This gets into "Minority Report" territory (where's Tom Cruise when you need him?)... It is clearly wrong to punish someone before a crime has been committed. ("Ahhh... but you were ABOUT to!!!") I drew a link between this and the description of the Amyr as "bloody-handed"... Someone who has blood on their hands has some implicit guilt of wrongdoing in some fashion. 2 wrongs do not equal a right, even though one wrong prevented another wrong, etc...

Amyr... A-myr... A-Myr... Myr-Tariniel... I just noticed that. Pre-emptive "justice" and a little bit of vengeance. The M.O. of the Order Amyr.

On an unrelated note, regarding the Cthaeh... Bast says it is interested in sowing discord.. We haven't learned whether it wants eternal discord, or discord ending in oblivion for everything.. If so, throwing a force for "good" (Kvothe) into the world to stir up some resistance to the Chandrian may be the Cthaeh's goal. It may not want one side to win, but rather maintain a neverending fight. Fights are always better with 2 strong opponents.

On another unrelated note, we don't actually see Kvothe's parents' bodies in TNOTW. So we only assume they are dead.

On an additional unrelated note, with some wild speculation, perhaps unlocking Iax from the stone door is the goal of the Amyr. Maybe they want to get rid of Haliax once and for all, but to do that they need Iax to undo whatever he may have speculatively done, in creating Haliax from Lanre in the first place.

[jurble]

I think he's stepping forward to join Aleph.

He is.

But Tehlu stood forward saying, "I hold justice foremost in my heart. I will leave the world behind that I might better serve it, serving you." He knelt before Aleph, his head bowed, his hands open at his sides.

But yeah, you're right, rereading it, it seems as though most Ruach (what is a Ruach?) didn't take a side with either Selitos or Aleph.

[Kosciuszko]

Does anybody know if there is significance behind the unusual capital letters in Denna's note to Kvothe?

At a guess it's Rothfuss showing Denna's educational background. In the setting shown it would not be uncommon for even a learned person to have seemingly randomly capitalized words. I see it all the time when I go back to the early 19th century or earlier.

[TeaSpoon]

At a guess it's Rothfuss showing Denna's educational background. In the setting shown it would not be uncommon for even a learned person to have seemingly randomly capitalized words. I see it all the time when I go back to the early 19th century or earlier.

In your time machine?

I'm sorry. I couldn't help myself.