Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)

[Garlan the Gallant]

Please correct me if I am wrong. There are:

a) Old Knowers who may also be Listeners (Hesba's story - old man)

B) Shapers

c) Namers

d) Seers? (referenced by puppet or is it papet?)

e) Singers

There are also:

I. The Chandrian

II. The Amyr

III. The Angels

IV. The Sithe

V. The Ctathe (who might also be Fae)

VI. The Fae

VII. The Ruach

(I'm probably spelling these all wrong. For that, I apologize.)

There are Four Doors.

One) At the University

Two) Lackless Estate

Three) ?

Four) ?

There are the following historical figures:

1) Lanre/Alaxel/Haliax (Chandrian)

2) Iax (Shaper)

3) Cinder (Chandrian)

4) Lyra (I think thats misspelled)

5) Selitos (that is definitely spelled wrong)

6) Aleph

7) Teh'lu

8) Taborlin the Great

9) Duke of Gibea

10) Chael

11) The Moon

12) The people named during Skarpi's stories that leave from the different cities

13) The rest of the Chandrian by names

14) Teccam

Are those about right?

Here are my questions:

1. Who or what does the Old Tinker represent in terms of Hesba's Iax story?

2. What are Singers? How is Singing different from Naming and Shaping?

3. Is Puppet a seer? Amyr (would explain why he knows so much about what is in the library and what is not)?

4. What are the Ruach?

5. Was Chael a Shaper? Did Kvothe Change his swords Name? To Folly?

6. Is Aleph an Old Knower? A Shaper? More?

7. Can opening the stone doors bring back Aleph and Teh'lu and Co who disappeared from the mortal realm?

8. Can opening the stone doors bring Iax back?

9. Who else is behind the stone doors? If there are four does that mean four people or four groups of people or all four have to be opened to unleash whatever needs unleashing?

10. Has Kvothe Changed his Name? If so, has he done it willingly? Because of the Oath? Did someone do it to him? Chandrian? Iax? Haliax? Denna? Bredan?

11. Is Skarpi more than a man? Is he Amyr? Is he an Old Knower?

12. Was the lightning that struck the camp sent from an Angel? Was it an Angel? Did the praying bring it or did Kvothe?

13. Which version of the creation story is the most truthful?

14. Who was Taborlin the Great really? Was he around during the Creation War?

15. Is modern naming truly naming? Is it Shaping?

16. Why makes Bast describe the Sithe as not being truly "good."

17. Is Bast Kvothe's son? Is he only 150 years old because time moves more slowly in Fae? When did Bast meet Kvothe? Why does Bast want Kote to be like his old self?

18. Who is King during the present?

19. Did Kvothe kill a poet?

20. Did Kvothe lock away his old name similar to how Iax locked away the name of the Moon?

21. Who is Auri truly? Is she a princess? Princess Ariel?

22. Why did the Amyr disappear or at least go underground?

23. Why does Kvothe no longer play any music? Is it because his left hand was injured? Did his inability to play music change his Name?

24. Is Elodin more than a great Namer of his age?

25. Where did Kvothe leave to at the end of the WMF? Shep's wake?

26. Was Lyra a Shaper or a Namer?

27. What is inside the Lockless box?

28. Is Kvothe simply pretending to not be able to perform magic? Is he just acting the part of Kote? Is that what he meant after the brawl with the two soldiers?

29. Why did Kvothe kill the King? Why would Kvothe not drink to the new king? How did Kvothe start the current war? Who is fighting the current war?

30. is Denna still alive? Did she betray Kvothe? Did she change his Name? Is she learning Yildish in order so that she can open the Lackless box?

31. Who is Bredan really? Is he Amyr? Chandrian? That specific Chandrain in the thrall of iron?

32. What were the posts in the ground at Cinder's base camp? What was Cinder doing there?

33. What are the importance of the Grey Stones? Are they similar to the Stone Doors?

34. Why is Kvothe unable to unlock his thrice-locked chest?

35. Did the Chandrian really kill Kvothe's troop? Did it just appear that way? Why did nothing come when they fled? Why did they leave Kvothe alive?

[jaerken]

One answer that I haven't seen mentioned here that I thought of was this: the Church did it. Just like they censored Skarpi, I'm sure they've been pruning the book collections and whatever else.

best ideas in this thread:

- not tally a lot less

- the box containing a name (probably the moon, it's the only thing that will set things right between the worlds and presumably stop the larger chaos going on in the world. Would explain why Kvothe is so anxious to open it)

- anything Manet related

worst ideas in this thread:

- the box contains the scrael

- bast has been orchestrating the entire story from beginning to end

- denna is an amyr or chandrian

- anything to do with "good left hand" conspiracies or Kvothe changing his name

- anything anti-Manet

It comes down to this: either you appreciate that storytelling is primarily designed for entertainment rather than information or you don't. I'm talking about Kvothe's story, the stories within his story, and the fables and folklore throughout. Kvothe says many times that he embellished all his stories when he heard them being told in taverns and even added a few more lies. Why would this be any different? Lest we forget, Kvothe was an entertainer first and all else second. And it's obvious by both the sales and the discussion here that we were all entertained.

[jurble]

If I ever go to a Con and see Rothfuss, I will certainly ask something along the lines of

"If Manet is Aleph, how can he also be Elodin?" or something absurd like that.

[Ski the Swift]

Question: Does anyone have an idea what happened to Ben? After he left the Ruh.

[AverageGuy]

Question: Does anyone have an idea what happened to Ben? After he left the Ruh.

He married the widow of a brewer and became the new brewer. It's only been four or five years, he's probably still there.

[Kosciuszko]

Ben is Manet.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Kos,

Since Manet is Aleph and Aleph created the world and everyone who lives in the world carries Aleph's spark does that mean, at the end of the day, that everyone, in the KKC, is actually Manet?

[AverageGuy]

Kos,

Since Manet is Aleph and Aleph created the world and everyone who lives in the world carries Aleph's spark does that mean, at the end of the day, that everyone, in the KKC, is actually Manet?

This seems logical. Also, outside the KKC, Rothfuss is Manet.

[Kosciuszko]

Manet lives within us all. Pray to him so that you too might know his glory.

[Gaston de Foix]

Please correct me if I am wrong. There are:

a) Old Knowers who may also be Listeners (Hesba's story - old man)

B) Shapers

c) Namers

d) Seers? (referenced by puppet or is it papet?)

e) Singers

There are also:

I. The Chandrian

II. The Amyr

III. The Angels

IV. The Sithe

V. The Ctathe (who might also be Fae)

VI. The Fae

VII. The Ruach

(I'm probably spelling these all wrong. For that, I apologize.)

There are Four Doors.

One) At the University

Two) Lackless Estate

Three) ?

Four) ?

There are the following historical figures:

1) Lanre/Alaxel/Haliax (Chandrian)

2) Iax (Shaper)

3) Cinder (Chandrian)

4) Lyra (I think thats misspelled)

5) Selitos (that is definitely spelled wrong)

6) Aleph

7) Teh'lu

8) Taborlin the Great

9) Duke of Gibea

10) Chael

11) The Moon

12) The people named during Skarpi's stories that leave from the different cities

13) The rest of the Chandrian by names

14) Teccam

Are those about right?

Here are my questions:

1. Who or what does the Old Tinker represent in terms of Hesba's Iax story?

2. What are Singers? How is Singing different from Naming and Shaping?

3. Is Puppet a seer? Amyr (would explain why he knows so much about what is in the library and what is not)?

4. What are the Ruach?

5. Was Chael a Shaper? Did Kvothe Change his swords Name? To Folly?

6. Is Aleph an Old Knower? A Shaper? More?

7. Can opening the stone doors bring back Aleph and Teh'lu and Co who disappeared from the mortal realm?

8. Can opening the stone doors bring Iax back?

9. Who else is behind the stone doors? If there are four does that mean four people or four groups of people or all four have to be opened to unleash whatever needs unleashing?

10. Has Kvothe Changed his Name? If so, has he done it willingly? Because of the Oath? Did someone do it to him? Chandrian? Iax? Haliax? Denna? Bredan?

11. Is Skarpi more than a man? Is he Amyr? Is he an Old Knower?

12. Was the lightning that struck the camp sent from an Angel? Was it an Angel? Did the praying bring it or did Kvothe?

13. Which version of the creation story is the most truthful?

14. Who was Taborlin the Great really? Was he around during the Creation War?

15. Is modern naming truly naming? Is it Shaping?

16. Why makes Bast describe the Sithe as not being truly "good."

17. Is Bast Kvothe's son? Is he only 150 years old because time moves more slowly in Fae? When did Bast meet Kvothe? Why does Bast want Kote to be like his old self?

18. Who is King during the present?

19. Did Kvothe kill a poet?

20. Did Kvothe lock away his old name similar to how Iax locked away the name of the Moon?

21. Who is Auri truly? Is she a princess? Princess Ariel?

22. Why did the Amyr disappear or at least go underground?

23. Why does Kvothe no longer play any music? Is it because his left hand was injured? Did his inability to play music change his Name?

24. Is Elodin more than a great Namer of his age?

25. Where did Kvothe leave to at the end of the WMF? Shep's wake?

26. Was Lyra a Shaper or a Namer?

27. What is inside the Lockless box?

28. Is Kvothe simply pretending to not be able to perform magic? Is he just acting the part of Kote? Is that what he meant after the brawl with the two soldiers?

29. Why did Kvothe kill the King? Why would Kvothe not drink to the new king? How did Kvothe start the current war? Who is fighting the current war?

30. is Denna still alive? Did she betray Kvothe? Did she change his Name? Is she learning Yildish in order so that she can open the Lackless box?

31. Who is Bredan really? Is he Amyr? Chandrian? That specific Chandrain in the thrall of iron?

32. What were the posts in the ground at Cinder's base camp? What was Cinder doing there?

33. What are the importance of the Grey Stones? Are they similar to the Stone Doors?

34. Why is Kvothe unable to unlock his thrice-locked chest?

35. Did the Chandrian really kill Kvothe's troop? Did it just appear that way? Why did nothing come when they fled? Why did they leave Kvothe alive?

I can never resist numbered lists...

1. I think he simply provides a convenient way to explain the acquisition of these items by Kvothe

2. Not enough information. Possibly the people of Tahlenwald?

3. Puppet is what he seems. A person with a savant knowledge of the library and an El'ir who is cracked.

4. Perhaps the original people of Fae?

5. Yes. No Kvothe didn't change the sword's name, this is a different sword entirely.

6. More.

7/8/9. As far as I know there are only two stone doors. One in the university and the other on the Lackless lands. Otherwise, RAFO :0)

11. Skarpi is probably just a knowledgeable old man. Knowers/SHapers/Amyr tend not to allow themselves to be punched in the

kidney.

12. My sense was the lightning was natural, but Kvothe made effective use of it.

13. My version :0).

14. I don't think Taborlin was around during the creation war.

15. Modern naming isn't shaping by any means. It isn't even naming like there used to be, because people only know a handful of names.

16. RAFO? A people who slaughter innocents who talk unwittingly to the Ctaeth, might not be good. I think the point is Kvothe says they have good intentions, and Bast is describing them as more on a mission regardless of theenc cost than being fair or just or anything like that.

17. No Bast isn't Kvothe's son, it would spoil the story completely if he was. Time moves quicker in Fae, and slower in the outside world, hence Bast's age. He wants his master to be as he was before because he is devoted to him. As to how Kvothe met him, well the answer is probably either when Kvothe went visitng Fae or Bast was visiting the world of men.

18. King in Vint? No idea, but it seems there is something going on both politically and in regards to Fae creatures being able to escape.

19. Probably, from his reaction in WMF.

20. I don't think so.

21. I don't think so.

22. For the Greater Good.

23. Kvothe defines himself through a piece of music. So yes, I imagine it changes him profoundly. I buy the injury to the left hand or at least incapacitation to it.

24. More than? I think it's enough that's he most powerful namer of his age out there isn't it?

25. Kvothe was practising the Ketan at the end of WMF>

26. Namer. We are told that.

27. RAFO

28. No he isn't acting, at least according to me.

The rest of the list will have to wait till later. Have sent a letter to Manet, he will precog the future and provide me a copy of the Doors of Stone so that I might better answer your questions...

[jaerken]

My theory of the Chandrian's purpose: The Chandrian exist to eradicate all knowledge of their names. Not to end the whole world, or at least if they want to, then they can't until they are nameless.

I'd also be willing to bet that Haliax is kept alive, unable to sleep, unable to have a body, etc until his name is gone. This explains the superstitions of those who know the names (walk 3000 miles, etc) and the Chandrian killing anytime they can locate someone who names them or has knowledge of them.

"He cast the stone at Lanre's feet and said, "By the power of my own blood I bind you. By your own name let you be accursed." Selitos spoke the long name that lay in Lanre's heart and at the sound of it the sun grew dark and wind tore stones from the mountainside. Then Selitos spoke, "This is my doom upon you. May your face be always held in shadow, black as the toppled towers of my beloved Myr Tariniel. This is my doom upon you. Your own name will be turned against you, that you shall have no peace. This is my doom upon you and all who follow you. May it last until the world ends and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky."

There's more but I'm limited for time right now. Also, Cinder is 100% Ferule. Not sure if this has been said already, but when Haliax is disciplining him for taunting Kvothe, he says "Ferula" to bind Cinder. Close enough.

Also, Lanre 100% changed his name. From the same story:

"Out of love for Lyra, Lanre had sought knowledge where knowledge is better left alone, and gained it at a terrible price. Without her, Lanre's life was nothing but a burden, and the power he had taken up lay like a knife in his mind. To escape despair and agony, Lanre had killed himself. But just as Lyra's love had drawn him back from past the final door...this time Lanre's power forced him to return from sweet obvlivion. "I can kill you," Selitos said, ..."For an hour or a day, but you would return pulled like iron...Your name burns with the power in you. I can no more extinguish it than I could throw a stone and strike down the moon."

Lanre's shoulders bowed. "I had hoped but I knew the truth. I am no longer the Lanre you knew. Mine is a new and terrible name. I am Haliax and no door can bar my passing. All is lost to me.... There is no escape. I have only the hope of oblivion after everything is gone and the Aleu fall nameless from the sky."

More to come...

[Thaykora]

Here is a little nugget for you. While wasting time on Wikipedia last night, I found myself reading about mars and moon rovers. That's when I saw it. India had an early space mission that was named Chandrayaan-1. It was too similar to be a coincidence so I looked up what it meant.

In Sanskrit Chandrayaan means 'moon craft' or 'moon device'. For India, it was their first unmanned lunar probe.

I'll leave the speculation to you.

[jurble]

It's possible. Reshi is also Sanskrit.

[unJon]

Hmmm... assume chandrian name is not because there are 7 but because in the old language it meant something about the moon. Maybe there are not seven Chandrian. There is some textual evidence for this. In one of the Skarpi stories it says "Lanre and his Chandrian." If that's true, and the Chandrian were the followers of Lanre, but not Lanre himself, there are only six of them. Me likey, great Sanskrit catch.

Different topic: why do we think the singers that the Chandrian are afraid of are capital S, Singers? It isn't capitalized in the text. If Singers meant Angels or some other group, I would think it would be capitalized. I think Haliax just meant it in the ordinary sense of people like Kvothe's parents singing "entirey the wrong kinds of songs" about the Chandrian.

[Zizoz]

I like the Sanskrit connection as well. Note also that Deoch's name is noted to mean "drink" -- "deoch" means "drink" in Irish. So Rothfuss is definitely using real languages, either instead of or in addition to making up his own.

Is there any chance, by the way, that someone recognizes any of the other languages in the book?

[thistlepong]

Is there any chance, by the way, that someone recognizes any of the other languages in the book?

Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Latin, Greek... He's a liberal bricoleur, particularly with regard to names.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

A thought on Bredon and his Silver Ring. What if he gave Kvothe a Silver ring because he knows they are of equal rank even if Kvothe does not?

[Gaston de Foix]

Here is a little nugget for you. While wasting time on Wikipedia last night, I found myself reading about mars and moon rovers. That's when I saw it. India had an early space mission that was named Chandrayaan-1. It was too similar to be a coincidence so I looked up what it meant.

In Sanskrit Chandrayaan means 'moon craft' or 'moon device'. For India, it was their first unmanned lunar probe.

I'll leave the speculation to you.

I feel embarassed not to have spotted this. Reshi is similar to Rishi which means sage or alternatively teacher. I did spot that, but figured nothing much turned on it.

The Chandrian connection works doubly well. Haliax is shown with a candle in which there is a full moon, half moon and just a sliver of a moon. Perhaps he is somehow trying to remove the moon from the mortal sky? Finish what Iax started?

The passage quoted is notable for its absence of referral to the moon. If Aleu=stars, maybe once the moon is gone they will fall from the sky automatically?

It's worth noting the name of the moon is Ludis in Hespe's story, not Chandra or anything like that. Also there are no other Indo-Sanskritic referneces in the book. So worth taking all this with a pinch of salt..

[Thaykora]

I don't think the way to look at this is to assume Chandra means moon, or Chandrian means moon-craft, in the world of Kvothe. Just like we are told, Chand has to do with the number seven in his world. However, while writing the book PR took care to make sure the names he picked had a meaning that reflected the true nature and purpose of the character in our world too.

I think the best thing to take away from this is that we have a clue to the purpose of the Chandrian. They have something to do with the moon, whether that is capturing it, moving it, or whatever. I'm going to look back and re read some areas and see if I can glean what their purpose with the moon is.

[Stego]

A few thoughts:

-Auri is definitely the princess. I've known this since she was introduced.

-The person who figured out who Kvothe's mom was is a genius. Props.

-The shipwreck story will make a great short story in Legends III. Hell, so would the Trial.

-Rothfuss tried to build up Kvothe's friends, but while he did better than in NotW, he still failed.

-The Felurian part I could have done without. No need for a sexy Tom Bombadil.

-The maiden hand talk samurais... I mean the Long Price gesture and posture speak meets Shogun... I mean, well, you know what I mean. This could have been told in much the same manner as ths Shipwreck - I.E. not at all.

-When Kvothe returned to Tarbean, I REALLY wanted him to run into those bitches on the waterfront that broke his Dad's lute.

All of this aside, the first two thirds of the book was sublime, and all together it was a great novel. I enjoyed it immensely.

I really wish I understood what the deal with Kvothe being such a wuss these days is, though. That bothered me. Training like he had does not go away in a couple of years.

RTA: Also, Kvothe is going to be kicked out of the University for letting Devi into the library by the secret way. Pretty obvious.