Wise Man's Fear II (SPOILERS)

[jurble]

6) I'm still confused about the Creation War. So Namers and Shapers are all like "this world isn't big enough for both of us". And Iax ends up creating Fae for the shapers to live there. And then he steals the moon (on a part-time basis). So the Namers are all "oh it's on like Donkey Kong now!" And they fight. And the 7 cities of Namers have the upper hand. But then Lanre gets all mad that Lyra dies. So he corrupts 6 of 7 people in the 7 cities. And they become the Chandrian. And (somehow) the Creation War ends in a stalemate with one Namer city left and the Shapers trapped in Fae with the Greystones. Is that basically right? Was Lanre pro-Shaper at the end or anti-everything? Are the Shapers the big-big bad or just misunderstood?

Iax creates the Fae to house the moon, which he stole. The Shapers, from what I recall, end up going away to all sorts of worlds they create for themselves. The Creation War seems to have involved more than just a few people, because Namers and Shapers don't exactly seem number in the millions. I'm guessing the Shapers created the Scrael and the Mael and all the scary things as weapons to beat the Namers with, but Shaping is some kind of Naming, because Selitos names Iax as one of his equals in Naming, so yeah.

The Creation War ends, I think, because the Shapers win. They get to create all their pocket worlds, and stop caring. The Scrael and the Mael get wrapped up by the Amyr and the Angels, and it's all hunky-dory.

Lanre isn't pro-shaper, he's anti-everything. He thinks everything dies eventually, so we might as well kill everything now.

[unJon]

Oh, I like Shaping = Changing Names. That fits very well and actually may explain the Kilving stuff too. The old sword was steel that was Shaped so that the name was change to something that lasts a super long time, etc.

ETA: @Jurble. I know the story says Jax made the houseto steal the moon. But I am not sure that's actually why Iax made Fae. The moon stealing is said to be the last straw and sparks the war. It is also the most (only?) visible change to the mortal world, so it could naturally be conflated as the reason for the creation of Fae. Ferulian's story made it sound like Iax created Fae and stars and such and then said "I want more, I'm going to steal the moon too." Didn't get the impression from her story that the moon was the raison d'etre. Though the Moon does seem to be special to the story in lots of different ways, so maybe the story is right. *dunno*

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Perhaps Folly is Caserua simply with its "Name" altered. Perhaps Kvothe discovered true shaping in his quest for naming and the Chandrian? Perhaps the "Name" changes are the source of his current difficulties?

[jurble]

Oh, I like Shaping = Changing Names. That fits very well and actually may explain the Kilving stuff too. The old sword was steel that was Shaped so that the name was change to something that lasts a super long time, etc.

ETA: @Jurble. I know the story says Jax made the houseto steal the moon. But I am not sure that's actually why Iax made Fae. The moon stealing is said to be the last straw and sparks the war. It is also the most (only?) visible change to the mortal world, so it could naturally be conflated as the reason for the creation of Fae. Ferulian's story made it sound like Iax created Fae and stars and such and then said "I want more, I'm going to steal the moon too." Didn't get the impression from her story that the moon was the raison d'etre. Though the Moon does seem to be special to the story in lots of different ways, so maybe the story is right. *dunno*

What I want to know is, what's so cool about the moon? Was it really a chick? I mean stealing the moon is understandable if it were a chick. Otherwise, it seems like he stole the moon just to decorate his crib.

And I bet Folly is Lanre's sword, just 'cuz. Or maybe the Angel he slew's sword.

But I'm pretty sure all the old-swords are silver not steel. Lanre had a silver sword, and all the old-swords appear to be a dull gray right? Like unburnished silver!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Auri comes out when the Moon is in the sky. It was visible on Kvothe's first visit in WMF.

[jurble]

Auri comes out when the Moon is in the sky. It was visible on Kvothe's first visit in WMF.

No moon = the way to the Fae is open. Moon = the way to the Fae is completely closed? So if Auri is some manner of Fae, or Fae-touched, what would that imply?

oh shit

AURI

IS

THE MOON.

DUN DUN DUN.

This is now what I firmly believe, and nothing will convince me otherwise.

Shit man, Rothfuss needs to read this forum, I bet he'd be like "Whoa."

[unJon]

@Jurble.

No moon means it's easy to travel from manworld to Fae. Moon means it is easy to travel from Fae to manworld. Think about the moon as pulling the "tides" between the two worlds in one direction or the other. So Auri showing up only during full moons would be additional evidence that she is Fae.

Love the crackpot theory though.

ETA: just to add fuel to the crackpottery. If Auri is the moon, it explains her skittishness around men. The last guy she went with totally stole her and locked a part of her away.

[nonman_erratic]

A couple of things...

First, on the etymology of Auri, there may be a bit of tribute to Tolkien... In the silmarillion when Hurin is fighting alone at the end of the Nirnaeth, he shouts, "Aure entuluva... Day shall come again." At the beginning of the Nirnaeth, Fingon shouts, "Utulien Aure.... The day has come."

Auri... Sunny... Aure... Day.

Next the gifts Auri gives Kvothe are what I think are a 'namer's tools'... In Cob's story he talks about Taborlin being imprisoned by the Chandrian and having lost his tools... Key, coin, and candle. Auri gave all 3 to Kvothe at one point.

I agree Auri is Fae. At one point in Tnotw Bast asks to hear more about what K found in the underthing... K says "Yes, I suppose you would want to hear more at that..." or something along those lines.

Anyone notice that Felurian is named 'Lady of Twilight' and Bast 'Prince of Twilight'... Certainly not firm evidence of their relation, but enough to speculate!

[kingkiller]

Last thread outgrew its Name... please continue.

A question: Felurian is basically a badass with magic, though her control is totally instinctual. Bast seems fully competent to handle himself, though I don't think he uses any actual magic. If the Fae and its denizens are so magical, then why does Bast need to be apprenticed to a "manling?"

one reason i can think of is that Bast seems to have a weak spot for a whole lot of human vices... eating, drinking, and most notably women. maybe he cant partake in such delights living as a fae prince. i doubt it is that simple, though.

[nonman_erratic]

One more thing on 'magic'

At one point Denna asks K, Sim, and Wil if they know any magic where you sort of write things down, and whatever you write becomes true...

Could this be a hint at the difference between naming and shaping? Naming involves the spoken word whereas shaping involves the written, perhaps altering a name and then recording it?

Maybe some of the things locked away in various boxes, chests, etc are reshaped names in written format. I could only speculate that destroying a shaped written name might undo the shaping?

[cypselus]

This is a great couple of threads. They've really enhanced my appreciation of the books.

I haven't seen this one come up. Were Kvothe's multiple references to Denna's white teeth an indication that she is a sweet eater?

[kingkiller]

This is a great couple of threads. They've really enhanced my appreciation of the books.

I haven't seen this one come up. Were Kvothe's multiple references to Denna's white teeth an indication that she is a sweet eater?

i didnt notice that. it would be unfortunate if she got hooked after what happened to her outside of trebon. i honestly don't think she is though. kvothe is probably just admiring her features. she's too independent to let herself get hooked to something like that, although it is troubling what she lets her patron do to her. normally she chews a man up and spits him out.

not only is this Master Ash an unsavory character, but he has to have some sort of power over Denna that she allows herself to be treated that way. maybe she's wanted for a crime somewhere else (very likely) and Ash knows who she is. she is good enough at getting money off of other guys, i doubt she needs Ash's money that much. she was doing okay on her own. i am dying to know his identity and why Denna lets him beat her.

[thistlepong]

I haven't seen any evidence that Auri's presence or absence is associated with any particular phase of the moon. All I know for certain is that it's out in the scenes where she bestows key, coin, and candle.

So far the only mention of a kingdom I've run across is in Kvothe's thoughts when Devi is bargaining for his entrance to the archives: he thinks of Auri in her "tiny kingdom." That could be "The truth about Princess Ariel."

As for her being them moon, that key she gives him would be loaded with innuendo. Wildly speculative.

I'm pretty sure white teeth in descriptions is meant to signify wealth, good grooming, or youth in most instances. I had ticks by them, but it's a long list: Cinder, Sleat, Denna, Marten, Vashet, Celean, Sovoy, Lentaren... in addition to the highwayman that kills Shep and the girl in Tarbean. It'd be unwise to completely discount something pointed out so clearly, though. Her actions can be read suggestive of a resin habit.

1. Taborlin the Great had a sword made of copper, Skyaldrin. In one of the stories shared by Marten in WMF, Taborlin the Great had a particular enemy, a sorceror king. His name is Stercus or Cyphus. While the spelling is different in the story and the rhyme I am reasonably certain it's the same person.

Anyway, he's one of the Chandrian in the names provided in the Ademic rhyme and he is the one in thrall of iron. I assume this means that iron rusts when he is around (which is certainly a feature of the Chandrian) but it may mean he has some special power over iron. Either way this explains the copper sword Taborlin possessed.

Fantastic! In Marten's story the Sorcerer-King is call Scyphus. In Shehyn's story Cyphus bears the blue flame. In Old Cob's version of Marten's story Taborlin's captor goes unnamed but blue flames and the Chandrian are mentioned. So, wrong Chandrian, but great catch.

I (can I say we?) still have no idea why copper is effective against the Fae and the Chandrian, but evidence mounts that it is. In addition to the above and Felurian's mention of copper knives, Nina's drawing the Amyr from the Trebon Pot portrays him with a copper sheild.

I'm pretty sure that if Denna lets "Master Ash" beat her, it's 'cause he's teaching her. Kvothe even has this realization late in the book, comparing it to his own willingness to be whipped. I know a lot folks aren't on board with the Yllish braiding/writing magic notion, but at the very least he taveled the known world with her and assisted in the composition of "The Seven Sorrows," a song Kvothe notes most everyone has heard.

[Suttree]

I know there has been speculation about Kvothe's mother being a part of Lackless family. Aside from the back story being perfect for Meluan's sister we have in TNotW when his Mom is chiding him about the Lackless song he was singing. "I imagine you could make it up to both Lady Lackless and myself if you found some sweet nettle for the pot tonight". Could make sense for Kvothe being in the Lackless family to be connected to the stone door mystery.

Overall loved the entire story, he has grown immensely as an author over the last couple years. The time spent polishing his work was well worth it and if he continues to get better this will be truly one of the greatest trilogies in recent memory.

[TeaSpoon]

A very simple explanation of Denna's bruises is that she's learning martial arts. Sparring would cause bruises.

I don't think that's what's happening, but I'm throwing it out there.

[Slick Mongoose]

A very simple explanation of Denna's bruises is that she's learning martial arts. Sparring would cause bruises.

I don't think that's what's happening, but I'm throwing it out there.

That's a really good idea, I don't think it contradicts anything the Cthaeh said, and it works for the "Ash is an Amyr" people (but I still don't think that theory explains Denna's song very well).

[Slick Mongoose]

WrathOfMe, I think it'd be a good idea to put a link to the previous thread in the opening post, given how popular this thread is with new people.

[Gaston de Foix]

I haven't seen any evidence that Auri's presence or absence is associated with any particular phase of the moon. All I know for certain is that it's out in the scenes where she bestows key, coin, and candle.

So far the only mention of a kingdom I've run across is in Kvothe's thoughts when Devi is bargaining for his entrance to the archives: he thinks of Auri in her "tiny kingdom." That could be "The truth about Princess Ariel."

As for her being them moon, that key she gives him would be loaded with innuendo. Wildly speculative.

I'm pretty sure white teeth in descriptions is meant to signify wealth, good grooming, or youth in most instances. I had ticks by them, but it's a long list: Cinder, Sleat, Denna, Marten, Vashet, Celean, Sovoy, Lentaren... in addition to the highwayman that kills Shep and the girl in Tarbean. It'd be unwise to completely discount something pointed out so clearly, though. Her actions can be read suggestive of a resin habit.

Fantastic! In Marten's story the Sorcerer-King is call Scyphus. In Shehyn's story Cyphus bears the blue flame. In Old Cob's version of Marten's story Taborlin's captor goes unnamed but blue flames and the Chandrian are mentioned. So, wrong Chandrian, but great catch.

I (can I say we?) still have no idea why copper is effective against the Fae and the Chandrian, but evidence mounts that it is. In addition to the above and Felurian's mention of copper knives, Nina's drawing the Amyr from the Trebon Pot portrays him with a copper sheild.

I'm pretty sure that if Denna lets "Master Ash" beat her, it's 'cause he's teaching her. Kvothe even has this realization late in the book, comparing it to his own willingness to be whipped. I know a lot folks aren't on board with the Yllish braiding/writing magic notion, but at the very least he taveled the known world with her and assisted in the composition of "The Seven Sorrows," a song Kvothe notes most everyone has heard.

I can't claim that much credit, I searched my kindle app for Cyphus and found the story related by Marten instead and was like whoa... it doesn't fully explain the copper sword, but Stercus has some manner of power over iron presumably? Iron's name is well known so it might just be that all the Chandrian are namers.

One recent catch I made in a re-read. It's a very sneaky thing but either Elodin is following Kvothe or he knows Kvothe's name. Most likely the latter.

How do I come to that conclusion? ok- I would love to give it to you all detailed with page numbers, but I'm too lazy. Seo you get it off the top of my head. Anyone who wishes to cite page numbers/additional examples is welcome to do so.

1. Elodin knows when Kvothe is leaving the university and is waiting for him along the way.

2. At the Eolian, Manet gives Kvothe a primer for admissions related to cards. Elodin asks Kvothe the exact same question at his admissions that Manet told Kvothe at the Eolian. At first I thought it was just that he was present at the Eolian and not visible but there's a bunch of small stuff like that (see above and below).

3. Elodin knows a suspicious amount about Kvothe, including his need for knew lute strings, his ability to put his "stage face on" etc.

4. When Kvothe returns from chasing the wind, Elodin is the only one not surprised.

5. in NOTW, When Ambrose breaks Kvothe's lute, Elodin reaches Kilvin's office unbidden and unsummoned.

My theory is that Elodin knows Kvothe's name, and therefore has the power to locate him. Either that, or he is keeping extraordinarily close tabs on Kvothe some other way. If so, I wonder why?

Oh I just thought of this- is it possible he made a dowsing compass of Kvothe?

[Slick Mongoose]

1, 3 and 5 are, I think, explainable by Kvothe being famous and news about him travelling fast.

4 is explainable by Elodin not showing his surprise, we don't know he wasn't.

2 is interesting. I remember wondering about it at the time.

[AverageGuy]

2. At the Eolian, Manet gives Kvothe a primer for admissions related to cards. Elodin asks Kvothe the exact same question at his admissions that Manet told Kvothe at the Eolian. At first I thought it was just that he was present at the Eolian and not visible but there's a bunch of small stuff like that (see above and below).

I'm pretty sure Elodin can grasp at least a piece of Kvothe's name. When he looks at Kvothe on the stair outside Hemme's room right before that, I got the impression he was looking into Kvothe the way Kvothe looked into Felurian. However, this particular case doesn't seem like one where Naming comes into play. I'd guess Elodin was either at the Eolian or he talked to Manet.