Boarders Writing a Novel - Thread V

[kuenjato]

I'm on vacation right now, so I'm tooling away the random flights/busrides/etc. finishing up some short stories that have been hanging around forever. I guess this spring/early summer has been cleanup, as I edited my first novel and slashed another 6000 words from it, bringing it from the 'original completed draft circa 2000' of 187k to a much better (if still somewhat bloated) 169k. It sure can be a painful exercise, reading and editing old stuff, but the eventual payoff (seeing how far you've come; random bits that still impress) is definately worth the eye rolling, the cringing, the cursing.

As for this summer-- I plan on completing two short novels that are currently 40%/35% done, finishing a compilation of short stories/novellas based in my 'prime' fantasy world (the 'vacation' work is this), research-prepping a sci-fi novel to be written next year (or the year after), beginning a book of travel-reflections (much of it is already written in blog form; I plan on extracting and adding and getting it all in one piece) and... getting back into the third book of my five-volume dark fantasy series.

That's for this summer, all while beginning my master's program. There's going to be a lot of 5AM mornings this season, I think...

[Starkess]

Wow, sounds like there are some really good WIPs amongst us. :)

I am completely lost when it comes to my writing. Since the demise of my marriage, I've written barely 3,000 words, and they all sucked. This over a period of 3.5 months. I was hoping that now that things are settled and I'm feeling good about life again, I'd be more productive...but it's like I can't manage to produce anything. It's frustrating as hell. Thinking about scrapping my current WIP, but none of the other ideas I have all well-formed enough to really produce a novel from. Also the idea of writing my fourth full-length, unpublished manuscript is kind of depressing.

So I guess what I really ought to do is knuckle down on the editing I'm trying to do of my last manuscript so I can really start querying it...but I feel like I'm fighting through quicksand to even sit down at my computer with it open.

So it goes. My writing does tend to go through cycles like this.

I'll add my voice here! I'm writing a novel. It does not as yet have a title. It is sci-fi flavoured lit and concerns an imperious woman who may or may not be 900 years old, with an amazing capacity for seduction / coercion.

She has no single name. She is the contradictory embodiment of historically wronged women wreaking vengeance upon mankind and generally tearing herself up in a perpetual cycle of lust and ruinous pain. (Joys!) It is mainly set in Chapelizod, Ireland where she is exorcising one of her 'personalities' and becoming paranoid that this is her last ordained project.

There is no structure, just the headlong pull of the central character's willpower until it is challenged.

This sounds really fascinating (I love the "who may or may not be 900 yeas old"!), but I will say that I think trying to go without structure is usually a recipe for disaster.

[Athelstane]

I just got a random itch and ended up turning it, in the space of about 4 hours, into a 2636-word story that is a sort of disconnected opening to my second planned novel (which is in early germ-stage).

It involved going way, way out of my comfort zone. Way out. Like so far out I don't even want to say what it includes, just because any presumption that I could deign to attempt to write such perspectives is sheer arrogance.

I guess I'll return to it in a few days and figure out if it's any good.

Belle, you're definitely looking at a ... niche market. The word 'market' might not even apply, because that implies some quantity of people who are interested in purchasing such a thing. But it sounds like a really fun project. And hey, if it's good enough, the market makes itself. Hell, I'm interested just from your enthusiasm.

Athelstane, the main thing that sticks out (other than 'US allegory: danger!') is that you've given me some detailed descriptions of the settings of Arrios and Gonawand, but nothing about Kassiun. Given the early stage you say your story is in, I'd be surprised if there's anything about Kassiun that you actually find interesting as a setting - it's just a place not Arrios and not Gonawand where you can put your plot. If it were interesting you'd have mentioned something about it. So have you considered instead tweaking your plot so that your story can be set in one of the places you've developed for it?

Arrios isnt gonna be a direct U.S. mirror image. Im thinking more greek themed, except that all of the people of the world have converged on it. I hope to evoke both the good and the bad of such a situation (which surely will invoke images of american socio-political issues, but I guess that is sort of the point). So many fantasy novels are so much based on the romantic idea of feudal europe, why not create a world where that feudal system isn't so prevalent (at least in one area of the world)?

As for Kassiun, it's obviously going to be loosely based on the Holy Roman Empire, but I definitely need to make it unique. I'm thinking that the Kassiun Theocracy actually uses scientific advances that their own scientists have discovered (and kept secret) to strengthen their "holy" power. Sort of the opposite of the Holy Roman Empire. Instead of shunning science, Kassiun is secretly on the forefront of it, and does not share its secrets with the rest of the world. To the common folk, their holy leaders seem supernatural because of this. Of course, that just a brainstorm, so it could all change. As for a geographical context, Im still working on that. Like I said, I've only been working on this for a few weeks.

I also have a map drawn out with pretty much all of the lands laid out, including a massive swampish land where "water-dragons" (read: alligators) grow up to 30 feet long, and an indian/earthly people dwell. Another island (which lays between Arrios and the populated world, and was discovered before Arrios) is a wasteland due to a similar war between the world powers (which is why they agreed to a peaceful negotiation this time around).

The Theocracy sits between a shrinking number of monarchy kingdoms to its west, and a huge mysterious nation to its east who are notoriously private and fiercely believe in isolationism.

I got a few of the plot points fleshed out, but still working on the details.

[Ebenstone]

Alright, my story is still in the infancy stages, but I have the gist of it in my head. It goes something like this:

Arrios, an island nation founded three hundred years ago by the great compromise, is unlike anything before it. When the island was discovered, a great war broke out between all of the nations of the world. After twenty years of fighting, the great nations agreed to form Arrios as a new nation where all other nations have an equal stake in it.

[This was all inspired by the formation of the U.S., so that basically Arrios is the fantasy version of the U.S., where all of the people of the world are converging because it brings "freedom" and "hope"]

Meanwhile, Gonawand is a jungle island on the other side of the world, and is the only place that Bhaccus grows. Bhaccus is used as a drug that when eaten makes the user incredibly strong for a few hours. On the other hand, Bhaccus has been shown to shorten the life-span of its users. Chronic users have been known to die as early as five years after first ingesting it. As such, most nations have outlawed it, but it is still a hot black market item.

Whew. Now to the actual synopsis:

Darion, a councilman of Arrios, is sent on a mission to investigate the theocratic empire of Kassiun, who despite their own outlawing of Bhaccus, are pushing for it to be legalized on Arrios. On the way, Darion will uncover a plot that involves multiple powers vying for control of both old lands and new nations.

Thoughts?

Focus on the characters. I know the world is important, but let that get revealed in the narrative. When you are doing a synopsis, focus on the characters and the plot. Especially the characters!

Nora-

Hang in there. Someone once said that there can be no rainbows without some rain! Let the writing come. I've found that sometimes tumultuous times aren't the best times to write in the moment, but often when everything settles down, the mind is more creative than it ever is.

Belle-

Your book sounds awesome. Graphic novels are very hot right now.

As for me, I'm making huge strides in writing the last week or so. "Sisters of Khoda," a YA fantasy based on the novel that I shared on the OLD BWB Writer's Group years and years ago! I solved the big issues and I'm moving right along. I am setting a loose June 30th deadline to finish the first draft and start work on something new (I've got a MG SF I'm thinking about and there is that pesky monkey book I'm thinking about.

[Bronn is God]

Time to write! I abandoned my old WIP because the writing felt so childish. It seemed to be a concept done over and over and over again and I myself couldnt see how it was in anyway interesting. So thats about 15,000 words down the drain and time to start with my next WIP, but where to begin?

My first attempt involved writing, and adding notes to a separate document. Everything seemed to be made up on the spot even though I had spent (seemingly) so much time going over and over it in my mind. This time I want to try and tackle this a little differently. Firstly, I need to revise my major plots (3 out of 4 I am completely happy with), then flesh out the characters before I put them on the page. Finally, comes the writing - undoubtedly the hardest part, especially since my inspiration levels are so low these days, but I shall pull through (hopefully).

The story itself is inspired by the horrors and atrocities committed in the Rashidun Caliphate and also the Rwandan Genocide. My personal goal (and what I believe will make the story stand out) is to make the participating sides no better than each other. That said, I run the risk of being having no likeable characters which then becomes a publishing nightmare (Imagine the Starks in GoT being replaced by good old Lannisters - so its Lannister vs Lannister).

Any advice on how you go about tackling the beast?

[Zoë Sumra]

Firstly, if you write within characters' POVs, you're unlikely to come out with none of them being likeable, if only because they'll all think they're right. Don't sweat that part. Secondly, find a method of plot outlining that suits you - experiment with paper and pen, computer, post-its, whatever, till it works - and work up a loose but complete structure, not so loose it doesn't stick together or so strict you can't tweak while writing. Once you get started, providing you let the characters carry you along it should be OK...

[emberling]

What do you mean by 'flesh out the characters before you put them on the page'? What does this mean? That is, what do you plan to actually do that fleshes out a character without actually writing the character? Because I can't think of a way to do that, and if you have some clever plan or note-taking strategy that does that, it might be useful for me to have in my toolbox.

Or we just have different definitions of 'fleshing out,' perhaps.

Lannister vs. Lannister sounds great! It's not like we don't have interesting and sympathetic Lannister characters. One of which is occasionally called one of the best characters in all of fiction. You just need to make sure to get across whatever perspective it is that makes these people do what they do. Everyone is the hero of their own story; everyone is sympathetic seen through the right lens.

Now, if your goal isn't to make the sides 'no better than each other' but instead tar them both black, then you have a problem.

Re: my comment earlier on Belle's project marketability - somehow I saw 'Montana' and read 'West Virginia' (???) which changes things significantly.

[Bronn is God]

What do you mean by 'flesh out the characters before you put them on the page'? What does this mean? That is, what do you plan to actually do that fleshes out a character without actually writing the character? Because I can't think of a way to do that, and if you have some clever plan or note-taking strategy that does that, it might be useful for me to have in my toolbox.

In my previous works, I found that my characters were pretty paper thin - I liked to think of it as the "Erikson treatment", whereby the characters are only living to drive a plot. Despite what I put in during the writing process, they still came off as 1 dimensional characters with random tidbits thrown in here and there.

My plan now is to develop the characters before I put them on the page. I know their place within the story, but what about their pasts, their desires, their likes and dislikes. This approach is different to what I have previously done, and hopefully it flows better.

Cheers.

[Zoë Sumra]

In my previous works, I found that my characters were pretty paper thin - I liked to think of it as the "Erikson treatment", whereby the characters are only living to drive a plot. Despite what I put in during the writing process, they still came off as 1 dimensional characters with random tidbits thrown in here and there.

My plan now is to develop the characters before I put them on the page. I know their place within the story, but what about their pasts, their desires, their likes and dislikes. This approach is different to what I have previously done, and hopefully it flows better.

I tend to solve this issue by creating most of my characters a couple of years before I start writing about them...

[Screaming Turkey Reborn]

I'm thinking about writing a novel about a guy who gets transformed into a toilet. Would anyone read this?

[The Undead Martyr]

I've been mulling over a fantasy novel for a few years now, but I'm having a lot of trouble coalescing all of the ideas I have into anything coherent. The problem is that I spend too much time on the world (and people within it) and not enough time on the overall plot. Most of what I actually have written is haphazard notes on timelines, locations, and vague plotlines, but I have a few specific scenes that I've already written. Basically, whenever I have any free time I lose myself in thought, and I sometimes get carried away with dialogue stuff.

Oh, and I have a major problem with names. I've made up three names so far, two for a race/kingdom and one for a character. The rest is just Jack, He, she and whatever name I happen to like from a book I read.

This is a scene detailing a "chat" between a noble prisoner (think Jaime pre-dungeon) and a ninja type, the idea being that the cpator doesn't want repurcussions from the guy's family. At least, that's what I came up with after writing it. I improvise a lot. :idea:

“You are very brave or very foolish to accept a drink from me.” He smiled slightly. “There are worse ways to die than at table with a beautiful girl.” “Of course. I can think of nineteen right now.”

He leaned back in his chair. “How many of these charming possibilities include my host?” She tilted her head slightly. “He is not your responsibility.” Her tone did not match the words.

He smiled. “Well, I certainly wouldn't want him to dirty his hands on my account. He has enough on his plate already to consider without my head-”

Her arms flashed out in a blur, and before he could react there was a knife between his fingers. Her right hand crushed his wrist in a death grip as she leaned forward, tilting the knife with her left. “The only thing that his lordship would find more appealing than carving you up and feeding you to the dogs,” a bright bud of flame blossomed where he felt the cold kiss of steel. “would be to lock you in a damp cell and force you to survive on shit and scraps of your own skin.” The dagger was uprooted from the table and vanished into her sleeve, and her hand released his wrist. It took him a moment to gather his thoughts. “So, you are here for his lordship's pleasure?” “I am not here for entertainment.”

Her callous apathy was starting to unnerve him. “Then why are you here?” She tilted her head towards him. “My client has many difficulties. I was employed to resolve those difficulties.”

"Starting with you.”

World Stuff:

The world (no name yet) is basically a FF-XII elven empire that degenerated into a Dragon age type setting. The elves had two schisms/civil wars that resulted in three subspecies.

First was the Drow (working name) who allegedly dabbled in blood magic. They were slaughtered almost to a man, with the survivors fleeing into the Dwarven tunnels belowground. Unfortunately, the elves were... overzealous... in pursuing the heretics, and waltzed through dwarven territories at will.

Anyway, the increasingly authoritarian elven regime (Istralia is the name) transformed the republic into a full-on kingdom, which didn't go over well with the population. there was a civil war, the republicans lost and spent the next 5000 years or so wandering the seas for a new homeland. Eventually the Aeronia terraformed undersea volcanoes into their new home.

Fast forward a few thousand years. The Istralians have enslaved nearby humans and are waging a war with the Dwarves. The Aeronians land, incite slave revolts, and steamroll through elven/human lands before starting a brutal conflict with the dwarves, leading to the eventual fragmentation of the dwarven empire. The drow reappear wreak havoc, and the empire collapses. The Drow and Dwarves are nearly extinct and fighting over the last scraps of their old territories belowground, and Istralia has reasserted itself as an independent (third party) state, leaving the humans to pick up the pieces on the surface.

There's a lot more, but not very coherent, as I said.

[The Undead Martyr]

Venice analogues fit quite nicely in fantasy.

THE SEAGATE OF ARUNA

Located within a silty strait between two seas, Aruna has a long history of maritime commerce. The Aeronians arrived in Bakhania to meet a thriving mercantile community, and centuries of peace and prosperity under the Imperial banner allowed the city to blossom into one of the premier trade hubs of the known world, garnering power and prestige among friends and foes alike.

The Seagate is the embodiment of this prestige.

Opening into the Imperial Sea, the Floodgate offered a natural position for ferry crossings; two modest cities were established at either end to defend the entrance to the lagoon and facilitate trade between the two shores. The sheer quantity of trade goods between north and south soon overtaxed the lagoon's ability to support transit; crossings became difficult and expensive, with many traders reluctantly choosing to bypass the route altogether. Aruna long dreamed of building a bridge to ease passage and bolster profits, but the artificial islands created to support the massve structure proved difficult to maintain, and the project was abandoned, for a time.

Aruna has never fallen to any enemy force; the city itself came under siege only twice in the past thousand years, and for good reason. Nearly invulnerable, the Aruni navy and the lagoon itself make a direct assault all but suicidal, and a blockade necessarily requires two large fleets at either end of the lagoon, separated from each other by fifty thousand miles of coastline and thirty miles of hostile waters. Only the empire could afford to field such extensive forces in a lengthy engagement, but even the empire was reluctant to devote nearly half of their full naval capacity to a single siege... or so it was believed.

Imperial armies marched south and siezed the northern crossing barely a week before two fleets arrived at either end of the lagoon. The western fleet landed troops at the southern crossing and besieged the settlement, completely severing Aruna's supply lines and bringing the city to its knees with three weeks of starvation and ending only after the southern defenders broke through the imperial lines. Aruna recognized how close it had come to defeat; the bridge project was renewed, this time doubling as a defensive structure.

Five centuries later, the other city states of Bakhania approached Aruna with a proposal: the cities had pooled their resources to restore the rail system used by the Aeronians, and wished Aruna to join the project. Aruna initially refused, seeing no profit in such an arrangement, but two years later the cities approached Aruna with a new offer. Even with the combined resources of Bakhania, the renovations would require imperial support. The empire had maintained the rail system within its borders, and agreed to back the cities on the condition that their network link directly with the Bakhanian system; the Floodgate was the only suitable location for such a connection.

Incorporated into the rail network, the Seagate was completed a century later with support from the empire that had fought so bitterly to sieze control of the lagoon, fighting a pitched battle with Aruni soldiers just outside the cities that the Seagate linked together. Every day, trains from the heart of the empire cross the bridge over waters that Imperial fleets warred in and through cities besieged by imperial armies; an irony immortalized in the words inscribed above the Sealord's chair, words that a thousand generations of Aruni have lived and died by:

Gold Knows No Nationalities.

[The Undead Martyr]

I'm thinking about writing a novel about a guy who gets transformed into a toilet. Would anyone read this?

Somthing like that will either be an epic classic or a complete flop, but if you have the conviction to suggest it then you probably have put enough thought into it to make it work.

[ZombieWife]

Hello all. I'm jumping in on this thread. I'm about 17k into a fantasy novel, multiple POV.

I wondering a few things.

1. How many of you have written or attempted the multiple/recycling POV? (a'la GRRM).

2. How have you handled it? I'm finding that the further I get in, the more hairy it's getting, especially in regard to maintaining time integrity, making sure that my characters are all on the same timeline here.

I've considered sticking with one character and writing that character from start to finish (the chapters he/she will be the main POV character). But, I'm not sure that will work. It will help me maintain the voice. Once I immerse myself in a voice, I enjoy being there.

Also, I'm waffling on one character and whether or not to include him as a main POV character. I find that the chapters I've written of him are kind of falling flat. It could be I haven't found the voice yet, or it could be that his POV will simply be dead weight and I should cull him and either leave that material out or include it in another character's POV.

Anyway, would love any thoughts/comments.

P.S. This isn't a thread that has been created to debate multiple POV writing. I have my reasons for choosing this (3rd person / recycling POVs). I've been browsing other boards (specifically on writing) and people seem to think I'm looking to read a tyrade about why that kind of writing is bad and why I should abandon it. So, would love to skip that kind of nonsense if at all possible. :)

[Starkess]

Finally started plotting out a new novel.

I SHOULD be editing my last one in order to start submitting...but at least I'm doing something, however small it feels.

[emberling]

I had two PoVs in my NaNoWriMo draft, and I found that things were unfocused and uninteresting. I cut one of them entirely - not just as a PoV, but as a storyline and as a character - and found that the remaining, more interesting story/character got more vivid to a striking degree as I spent all my time on her.

So from that experience, and assuming that this is your first novel, I'd recommend trying the 'stick with one character and write him from start to finish' plan, because it removes the distraction of worrying about structure, and lets you worry about all the other things you surely need to learn as a beginning writer. Yes, you're worried it won't work, that you won't be able to tell the full story from only this person's eyes...but I'm not saying that you have to. I'm just suggesting writing his PoV first. Then go back and write more PoVs - fill the holes, fill in the events that weren't visible that need to be, rewrite some scenes from a different PoV if it's more appropriate.

That may not be the best way to write ASoIaF, with its eight-plus wildly divergent plots, but George had been a successful, award-winning author for 20 years when he wrote AGoT. A first novel, I think, cannot be so ambitious. But for the more usual setup, with one main plot-thread and occasional detours/splits, writing the main section first should be fine.

An interesting bit of advice I read about what to do when you do have wildly divergent threads, though, is that when they're too far apart to actually interact with them, you can still have them twine together through similarity in theme, metaphor, or event. Luke Skywalker enters a cave that isn't as it seems - he has to fight his own subconscious within. Meanwhile, the Millennium Falcon enters a cave that isn't as it seems - it's a giant worm that tries to eat them. ASoIaF is full of these; pay attention to the episode splits in the HBO series, because they pretty much nailed the thematic mirrors in each one.

[Ebenstone]

Got a crushing rejection today. Absolutely destroyed me. Used expressions like "tough choice" and "you are really on to something."

I don't know what to do next.

Seriously. I'm that bummed. I really thought this was going to be my agent.

Oh well. Where's the whiskey?

[ZombieWife]

DP

[ZombieWife]

I had two PoVs in my NaNoWriMo draft, and I found that things were unfocused and uninteresting. I cut one of them entirely - not just as a PoV, but as a storyline and as a character - and found that the remaining, more interesting story/character got more vivid to a striking degree as I spent all my time on her.

So from that experience, and assuming that this is your first novel, I'd recommend trying the 'stick with one character and write him from start to finish' plan, because it removes the distraction of worrying about structure, and lets you worry about all the other things you surely need to learn as a beginning writer. Yes, you're worried it won't work, that you won't be able to tell the full story from only this person's eyes...but I'm not saying that you have to. I'm just suggesting writing his PoV first. Then go back and write more PoVs - fill the holes, fill in the events that weren't visible that need to be, rewrite some scenes from a different PoV if it's more appropriate.

That may not be the best way to write ASoIaF, with its eight-plus wildly divergent plots, but George had been a successful, award-winning author for 20 years when he wrote AGoT. A first novel, I think, cannot be so ambitious. But for the more usual setup, with one main plot-thread and occasional detours/splits, writing the main section first should be fine.

An interesting bit of advice I read about what to do when you do have wildly divergent threads, though, is that when they're too far apart to actually interact with them, you can still have them twine together through similarity in theme, metaphor, or event. Luke Skywalker enters a cave that isn't as it seems - he has to fight his own subconscious within. Meanwhile, the Millennium Falcon enters a cave that isn't as it seems - it's a giant worm that tries to eat them. ASoIaF is full of these; pay attention to the episode splits in the HBO series, because they pretty much nailed the thematic mirrors in each one.

Not my first novel, no, but I'd really really prefer not to start a huge defense as to why I am choosing this form to tell my story in. =) For the most part, it's going well in terms of voice and story. I am considering dropping one of the seven POV characters, but will probably stick with it for another chapter or two and see if I can unlock the voice. If I can't, it will be time to move on. No issue killing my "baby" so to say on this one.

I'm just interested in possible methods of execution of the multi-POV style and how writers might have organized the POVs (pre-writing/post-writing) and what may or may not have worked for them.

As of now, I'm writing chapter by chapter, moving in and out of POVs as the story dictates. But, I'm also wondering about choosing a character and sticking with that voice for a few sections (and doing that with all of them), and possibly splitting/arranging them later.

Would love any advice from folks on the basic organization of their stories. I've outlined in the past (for previous novels) and that works. This, on the other hand, is trickier.

[ZombieWife]

Got a crushing rejection today. Absolutely destroyed me. Used expressions like "tough choice" and "you are really on to something."

I don't know what to do next.

Seriously. I'm that bummed. I really thought this was going to be my agent.

Oh well. Where's the whiskey?

why would that crush you? Some of the best rejections I received in the past were "reject plusses." It means you're close. Would you rather get, "this sucks, stop writing" type rejections? :)

I still have a hand-written note from the Missouri Review (the "then" editor). It was about a half-page note letting me know how tough the decision was, how close it was, to keep submitting. I think I was more excited about that reject than I was about a lot of the acceptances. Hard to explain. But, don't give up. :) Have your drink and get to revising!

Carrie, by Stephen King rejected 30 times

Dune (23)

Harry Potter (9)

That's just to name a few.