Why Jaime deserves to die (Storm Of Swords Spoilers)

[A wilding]

But, as to the quest to return Sansa....Fine. Cat never specifically said Brienne was to rescue her daughters personally, that she was just meant to get Jaimie to KL so a trade could be made. But, seriously, it's pretty picky not to admit that, having gotten to KL with Jaimie, and finding neither daughter in custody, Brienne deciding to accept Jaimie's aid in finding Sansa and getting her home isn't a fairly reasonable and logical contiuation of her duty.

But the problem is that at the same time Brienne is supposedly running around trying to find Sansa, there is a Lannister price on Sansa's head. UnCatelyn is being asked to believe that Jaime has surreptitiously gone against his family, but has done so only to the extent of making the surely pointless gesture of secretly sending Brienne on a mission to find Sansa, nevertheless giving her a priceless sword and an authorisation that must have been a little tricky to obtain.

Given all UnCatelyn knows of Jaime, incredulity seems a reasonable response. I consider it unfair to call it a logic that just doesn't fly.

[Faint]

You can't take everything Jaime says literally. I'd only trust his POV from the perspective of what he actually thinks. For example, he tells Brienne that Sansa Stark is his last chance for honor, then proceeds to never give Sansa a second's thought from that point forward. What he does think about, and on a consistent basis, is Brienne herself, his sister's betrayals, and his duties as a member of the King's Guard. And from all available evidence, what he truly believes to be his last chance for honor is to uphold his oaths as Lord Commander of the white cloaks going forward; otherwise, he would be out there searching for Sansa himself. And that's fine really -- it might be a little much to all the sudden imagine that Jaime would turn into a saint.

[Nukelavee]

wilding - except, in context, that quote of mine isn't about being believable to Cat (that's a whole other tangent), it's about claiming that Brienne's attempt to find Sansa isn't simply a continuation of her "duty" to Cat.

Brienne was sent out, with Jaimie and the Frey, in order to get Sansa to safety. Brienne is STILL trying to complete the mission, even tho she's the last one and the original plan went into the latrine.

Your arguement is that Cat didn't send her on that quest - Mine is that it's the same objective.

So far as Cat believing it goes...that's Cat's issue. This version of her isn't interested in actually listening and thinking things through; she's made a quick impulse call, and that's it. She doesn't know the whole story, she isn't interested in finding it out, heck, she isn't even interested in interrogating Brienne to see what juicy secrets she might know.

Logic is overused as a justifier - One can build an incredibly sound logical arguemnt and reach a conclusion, but if it's based on a fualty foundation...so what? Wrong is wrong.

[inkasrain]

You can't take everything Jaime says literally. I'd only trust his POV from the perspective of what he actually thinks. For example, he tells Brienne that Sansa Stark is his last chance for honor, then proceeds to never give Sansa a second's thought from that point forward. What he does think about, and on a consistent basis, is Brienne herself, his sister's betrayals, and his duties as a member of the King's Guard. And from all available evidence, what he truly believes to be his last chance for honor is to uphold his oaths as Lord Commander of the white cloaks going forward; otherwise, he would be out there searching for Sansa himself. And that's fine really -- it might be a little much to all the sudden imagine that Jaime would turn into a saint.

Unless take an alternate view, that being that Jaime had taken what he believed to be the best course toward finding Sansa and moved on with the other responsibilities to which he was bound by honor.

(I know you're not going to agree, AC. I'm just putting this out there for the sake of diverse opinions.)

[Faint]

Unless take an alternate view, that being that Jaime had taken what he believed to be the best course toward finding Sansa and moved on with the other responsibilities to which he was bound by honor.

(I know you're not going to agree, AC. I'm just putting this out there for the sake of diverse opinions.)

Even assuming this was true, which I don't believe for a second, one would think that it would be reflective in his thoughts. If Brienne finding Sansa is truly his last chance for honor, something we are going to assume, for the sake of argument, is a large concern to him, then I'd imagine it would consume a great deal of his thinking on the matter -- but it doesn't. When he does think in the context of honor, and his self improvement, all his thoughts go to the oaths he swore to protect Tommen.

I also think there is something of a wealth of evidence demonstrating that sending Brienne to go find Sansa was done more for Brienne's benefit, on Jaime's end, than for Sansa Stark's. I continue to be amazed that you don't read Jaime's motivations this way. I don't know if you have a Kindle or not, or some similar device, but you'd find it pretty instructive if you searched for the term 'Sansa' in Jaime's chapters in AFfC and saw what came up.

Having said all that, I do wonder, if my prediction comes true and Brienne is cut down in front of Jaime while attempting to kill him, whether Jaime might not start regarding his oath to Catelyn quite differently.

[inkasrain]

Even assuming this was true, which I don't believe for a second, one would think that it would be reflective in his thoughts. If Brienne finding Sansa is truly his last chance for honor, something we are going to assume, for the sake of argument, is a large concern to him, then I'd imagine it would consume a great deal of his thinking on the matter -- but it doesn't. When he does think in the context of honor, and his self improvement, all his thoughts go to the oaths he swore to protect Tommen.

Disagree; I think it's perfectly in-character. Jaime is hardly the most contemplative of individuals, and as he can't do anything else about Sansa's whereabouts, what would be the point of worrying about it? Most people have had occasion to put something they can't control out of their minds, even important things-- and Jaime is not the sort of person to sit around fretting about an idea (as that's really all Sansa is to him) especially once he's taken all the action there is to be taken. You might not like that Jaime does this-- and by all means, disapprove away-- but it's hardly indicative of some deep internal dishonesty.

I also think there is something of a wealth of evidence demonstrating that sending Brienne to go find Sansa was done more for Brienne's benefit, on Jaime's end, than for Sansa Stark's. I continue to be amazed that you don't read Jaime's motivations this way. I don't know if you have a Kindle or not, or some similar device, but you'd find it pretty instructive if you searched for the term 'Sansa' in Jaime's chapters in AFfC and saw what came up.

I continue to be amazed that you're still amazed that people disagree with you.

In any event, I certainly concur that Brienne's psychological welfare was a big factor in Jaime's decision to send her, but this isn't an either-or scenario. Jaime's desire to help Brienne and his desire to find Sansa happened to dovetail perfectly. The situation might have been harder on my opinion of Jaime if the person he wanted to help was Steelshanks, or Qyburn, or Moonboy, but GRRM doesn't put Jaime in a position where his two goals are contradictory. As such, he is doing right, with every appearance of good intentions, and so I'm quite comfortable with Jaime's current perspectives on both Brienne and Sansa Stark.

[Faint]

Disagree; I think it's perfectly in-character. Jaime is hardly the most contemplative of individuals, and as he can't do anything else about Sansa's whereabouts, what would be the point of worrying about it?

Except, he spends nearly all of AFfC contemplating, not of Sansa of course, but of Brienne, Cersei, Tommen, Lancel, Kettleblack, himself, etc.

Most people have had occasion to put something they can't control out of their minds, even important things-- and Jaime is not the sort of person to sit around fretting about an idea (as that's really all Sansa is to him) especially once he's taken all the action there is to be taken. You might not like that Jaime does this-- and by all means, disapprove away-- but it's hardly indicative of some deep internal dishonesty.

I don't think there is any dishonesty going on. I'm sure he hopes that Brienne will succeed but my contention is different than that -- all I argue is that he doesn't really think of Sansa Stark as his last chance for honor. How could he? Presumably, if Brienne is successful, Jaime will never know about it. I guess if Sansa is never heard from again he can hope that she is alive and under Brienne's protection in one of the Free Cities or in Tarth, but it would be just as likely that they're both dead in a ditch somewhere.

If he is looking to regain his honor anywhere, it's with Tommen -- and his thoughts indicate this, even when his words don't.

[AvengingAryaFan]

I agree with inkasrain on the above.

I think AC has drawn an incorrect subsidiary conclusion: that finding Sansa is Jaime's last chance for honor. I think the point of the dream and all is that Jaime is awakening to the idea that he HAS a last chance for honor, and it involves - doing the honorable thing, in all matters. Not just w/r/t Sansa; that's just one of his responsibilities. In each area he has to satisfy his obligations and also maintain his honor.

Thus he attends to each issue as it comes up, but in each case he looks at it through a new lens, considering how he can deal with the issue and retain the possibility of recovering his honor.

AC's mistaken subsidiary conclusion leads to the further incorrect conclusion that Jaime must either obsess about Sansa or lack honor.

[Faint]

Um, no. I simply argue that when Jaime told Brienne that "Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor," he was being disingenuous about his real feelings. That in truth, Jaime considers his oath to Tommen his last chance for honor. And that we should never take Jaime at his words, it's far preferable to consider his actual thoughts than what he tells other characters.

[Faint]

Actually, I just went back and read the scene; this is such a ridiculous argument -- read it for yourselves:

"You say Sansa killed him. Why protect her?

Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei's cunt. And because he deserved to die. "I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor." Jaime smiled thinly. "Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?"

What does the scene read like to you?

In any case, I certainly don't get the impression that Jaime truly thinks Sansa Stark is his last chance for honor.

[inkasrain]

Except, he spends nearly all of AFfC contemplating, not of Sansa of course, but of Brienne, Cersei, Tommen, Lancel, Kettleblack, himself, etc.

So what? All the characters you mention are people Jaime knows and is involved with (usually in an antagonistic sense.) He has never met Sansa; she is an abstract for him, an idea, a duty. Once that duty is dispatched, as Jaime believes it is, there is no reason why he should keep a Post-It note with the words "Sansa Stark = My Honor" on his mirror.

I don't think there is any dishonesty going on. I'm sure he hopes that Brienne will succeed but my contention is different than that -- all I argue is that he doesn't really think of Sansa Stark as his last chance for honor. How could he? Presumably, if Brienne is successful, Jaime will never know about it. I guess if Sansa is never heard from again he can hope that she is alive and under Brienne's protection in one of the Free Cities or in Tarth, but it would be just as likely that they're both dead in a ditch somewhere.

If he is looking to regain his honor anywhere, it's with Tommen -- and his thoughts indicate this, even when his words don't.

It might be just as likely, but Brienne is pretty badass with a blade. Sansa's odds for safety are better with her than they are with Dontos.

And I really don't see why it's problematic that Jaime realizes that he has more than one way to redeem his honor. What's the absolute worst case here-- Jaime lied about Sansa being his singular opportunity for redemption, in order to make Brienne feel better and motivate her on her quest? The end result is exactly the same as if Jaime had been on his knees, begging Brienne to quest for him: someone dedicated to finding Sansa Stark and keeping her safe is on her way to do exactly that. His duty is dispatched honorably, and now Jaime can concentrate on other self-improvements, like his treatment of Tommen, and later his dealings with the shredded remains of the Tullys.

I think the point of the dream and all is that Jaime is awakening to the idea that he HAS a last chance for honor, and it involves - doing the honorable thing, in all matters. Not just w/r/t Sansa; that's just one of his responsibilities. In each area he has to satisfy his obligations and also maintain his honor.

Thus he attends to each issue as it comes up, but in each case he looks at it through a new lens, considering how he can deal with the issue and retain the possibility of recovering his honor.

:agree:

[Faint]

@inkasrain

I think you misread what Jaime said. He didn't say: "Sansa Stark is one of my last chances for honor." I've quoted the whole thing above.

[inkasrain]

@inkasrain

I think you misread what Jaime said. He didn't say: "Sansa Stark is one of my last chances for honor." I've quoted the whole thing above.

Yep, I read it. So he either lied for Brienne's sake or changed his mind soon afterward. Neither seems particularly nefarious or vexing to me.

[Faint]

Yep, I read it. So he either lied for Brienne's sake or changed his mind soon afterward. Neither seems particularly nefarious or vexing to me.

Lied is a little bit strong. He exaggerated the importantance of her mission to him. And no, I don't think it was nefarious since it was within the context of trying to make Brienne feel better.

Imagine Brienne's reaction had Jaime actually told her that Joffrey was nothing more to him than a squirt of his seed in his sister's cunt.

That said, I do think that Jaime hopes Brienne succeeds.

[Tyler Snow]

Jamie deserves to die because it took a hand being cut off for him to stop being a douche. While his attempts at redemption are admirably, I like the fact that (hopefully) they will ultimately be futile. He has killed, maimed, and schemed to continue to have an affair with his twin, he doesn't care about honor and was a coward about killing Aerys (wanted to sneak away but Ned found him in the act), and cares nothing for the children he has fathered. He is/was a man obsessed with nothing but his own happiness and reputation and the fact that he has neither and has not been able to get either back after his fateful actions a rather fitting punishment.

[CornCornSnow]

For me, GRRM is doing a great job of redeeming Jaime. He's done bad stuff, but at least he's faithful to his woman. I don't think he will make it to the end of the series, but I hope that he gets to die while restoring his honor—give them something nice to write about his death in the Kingsguard's book.

I do have one wish; I would like to see his pal Qyburn fit him with one of UnGregor's massive fists after the former Hound re-kills his brother. Then Jaime wouldn't need a sword, and could just punch his enemies to death, like Gregor did to Oberyn.

[Lady Blackfish]

I think any confidence in the idea that releasing Jaime as a POW excused him of crimes committed outside the scope of the war (such as tossing Bran out the window) is premature. No such convention is indicated in the text and was concocted, as far as I can remember, by (a) reader(s).

I think Jaime is condemnable for his action with Bran alone. Whether or not that's part of Stoneheart's motivation remains, IMO, ambiguous. The salt in the mouths of some of the hanged men does possibly suggest, though, that Stoneheart acknowledges actions outside of the Red Wedding (unless that happened without her orders, or perhaps before she took over leadership of the BWB). I also think that, Red Wedding involvement or no, they're enemies in war, and Jaime would've tossed Edmure's kid over the walls of Riverrun if he had to (he was just hoping that he didn't have to, but what would Stoneheart care about Jaime's hopes?).

Jaime has changed, but I think one interesting question his storyline raises is if one can ever fully come back from certain acts. If he tossed your innocent kid (or kid brother) out a window, with the intent to kill him, would you really care that he now takes his job seriously and hasn't repeated such a crime since? Would you want him to escape punishment entirely? Jaime is one of my absolute favorite characters, but if his redemption arc ends in failure, I don't think it would be inconsistent or unfair on the author's part.

[AvengingAryaFan]

Actually, I just went back and read the scene; this is such a ridiculous argument -- read it for yourselves:

...

What does the scene read like to you?

In any case, I certainly don't get the impression that Jaime truly thinks Sansa Stark is his last chance for honor.

Thanks for the quote. If they weren't so difficult to find, I'd use them more often. Maybe ebooks will help.

I'm sorry you think it's a ridiculous argument. I think it's amazing that the writing is so nuanced that there is material to argue this two or more ways.

Actually, maybe Jaime does think Sansa Stark is his "last chance for honor".

It's a remarkable bit of writing: IMO one typically can't know precisely what people are thinking from their words - or even from their (necessarily incomplete) thoughts. Martin paints Jaime as doing exactly the sort of thing people really do in response to questions like Brienne's: he considers various answers, rejects some (like the whole incest and uninvolved father issue) as unsuitable for the audience, and shades others according to his audience.

(I'm not even sure you disagree, but) I don't believe Jaime was misleading Brienne. Like a lot of men, Jaime can't just tell uncomfortable truths straight; "earnest" isn't his style. He can only be serious by mocking himself through exaggeration. Obviously "kingslayers should band together" is mockery of himself, yet (IMO) accurately reflects a lot of feelings, including that Joffrey truly deserved to die. And "Sansa is my last chance for honor" is mocking overstatement with a kernel of truth. I don't think one can arbitrarily choose to ignore even one oath and yet retain honor, so each new moral challenge can fairly be said to be "his last chance for honor". He doesn't have to say "one of my last chances" for it to be true.

An opposite interpretation is perfectly reasonable. Jaime's dreams aren't binding, and his thoughts as well as his words admit of contrary interpretations. Examples: he might have understood pretty well about the RW from what Roose said, rendering his "give my regards" into vicious irony rather than wry respect; his thought at the Blackfish parley ("I could tell him I had nothing to do with [the RW]") might have been nothing more than contemplation of a lie; and his trebuchet-delivery threat could have been entirely serious. Plus there's his ongoing deceit regarding the incest and Bran's defenestration.

Yet my take on "George's truth" for Jaime in the AFFC timeframe is what I see from his dreams, his appreciation of the fact that he has yet to make entries in the White Book, his saving of Brienne and Tyrion and his sending Brienne after Sansa. He even accepts that the more honorable action may not be clear (freeing Tyrion and telling Brienne not to return Sansa may both contradict his Kingsguard oaths). But pending authorial clarification (or further evolution of his character), I interpret all his ambiguous thoughts and words as reflecting a serious desire and effort to reclaim his honor in all matters.

[A wilding]

I also think there is something of a wealth of evidence demonstrating that sending Brienne to go find Sansa was done more for Brienne's benefit, on Jaime's end, than for Sansa Stark's. I continue to be amazed that you don't read Jaime's motivations this way. I don't know if you have a Kindle or not, or some similar device, but you'd find it pretty instructive if you searched for the term 'Sansa' in Jaime's chapters in AFfC and saw what came up.

Definitely, the clincher being that the chances of Brienne ever finding Sansa were very small.

Plus, if Brienne ever did find Sansa the chances of keeping her safe were also small. She may be an extremely good warrior, but how would that help her protect Sansa against say, a squad of Tarly's men under orders to take Sansa back to Cersei?

If Jaime really wanted to save Sansa, he could pull some of those levers of government that he is so close to.

[inkasrain]

Lied is a little bit strong. He exaggerated the importantance of her mission to him. And no, I don't think it was nefarious since it was within the context of trying to make Brienne feel better.

Imagine Brienne's reaction had Jaime actually told her that Joffrey was nothing more to him than a squirt of his seed in his sister's cunt.

That said, I do think that Jaime hopes Brienne succeeds.

Well then, I think we might actually agree. *checks for flying pigs*