[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

She is not sexy, at least not by modern terms, and at least the way that she's playing Cersei. I always pictured Cersei as fairly vain, very beautiful, but most importantly sexy - and willing to use that sex appeal. The show Cersei isn't sexy, she's charming. I like it better, but it's most assuredly different than the books.

That is still pretty subjective, and, as you point out, it is using "modern terms". The land of Westeros is not supposed to conform to "modern terms".

I always pictured Cersei as fairly vain, very beautiful, but most importantly sexy - and willing to use that sex appeal. The show Cersei isn't sexy, she's charming. I like it better, but it's most assuredly different than the books.

I don't think it is different from the books, at east not yet. She wasn't the seductress while she was in Winterfell. There are many examples where she used charm to try to disarm people (the scene where she makes Sansa write the letter to her family comes to mind as a good example).

I also think that she always seemed as more of an ice queen than a sultry seductress.

[smegma]

Never got that at all in the books, except when she's alone with certain persons. That's how I picture what's-her-face from Myr, but not Cersei. For my money she was always a total ice queen.

I've always felt exactly the same - I always got the Monica Bellucci oozing sex thing from Taena, and more of an ice queen except when she wants to be in a one on one setting from Cersei. She doesn't even enjoy sex most of the time, and usually only turns it up to serve her needs. Beautiful, but cold.

[Alexia]

I always visualized Cersei as an elegant, charming woman. She turns on the sexiness when she decides it can come in handy (Ned, Lancel, Kettleblacks) but in general, she gets her way using sweet charm. Tyrion even thinks about how lovely and charming she is at one point.

The problem with her portrayal in the books is that we see her through the eyes of people who hate her for the most part (Ned, Tyrion, etc...) and she does a few things (Lady, Robert) that makes it hard to visualize the charm thereafter. But FWIW, she nailed my visual Cersei through her conversations with Sansa in Ep1 and Catelyn in Ep2.

[Kalbear]

That is still pretty subjective, and, as you point out, it is using "modern terms". The land of Westeros is not supposed to conform to "modern terms".

I'm using modern terms to qualify what I'm talking about. Sexy back then might not have meant the same thing, but to us sexy means a certain value. And that's what I'm referring to - that ability to enter a room and make all the men and some of the ladies turn their heads, or steal glances here and there, or talk about her the same way folks talk about Jason Momoa in this thread or how they talk about Monica Bellucci in others.

Namely, "God damn, that's hot and I want to hit that, eh? Eh?"

It's hard to picture two guards randomly talking about Cersei and saying that they'd like her to suck their cock and have it make sense. That kind of bragging doesn't happen with the Cersei we've seen so far, I don't think, any more than it happens around people talking about, oh, Michelle Pfeiffer in her 40s. You don't see I Am Sam and go 'god damn, Michelle Pfeiffer's hot in that and I totally want to do her'.

But that's what people did in the books about Cersei. In the books, she's like Angelina Jolie to people. She's like Kim Kardashian. She's like Christina Hendricks. She's decidedly not like Natalie Portman.

[Cereal Forel]

I agree with everyone else. Aside from her hair not being curly, I think she has portrayed the role perfectly. She doesn't become the paranoid, maniacal trainwreck until Joffrey dies, and we don't see her turn up the sex appeal till they get back to King's Landing, and even then never in public.

[Xenophon]

Eh, I don't mind the less sexy Cersei. IMO, it fits with how they've reenvisioned her. Sexy fits with a villainous femme fetale, but the new more sympathetic Cersei needs to be tough to survive having a jerk like Robert as a husband. Also, if she's so sexy, Robert's indiscretions make less sense, and seem less like a threat to her. There's something particularly horrible about your spouse cheating on you with someone better looking. So I like that she's a bit less sexy and a lot more tough.

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

But that's what people did in the books about Cersei. In the books, she's like Angelina Jolie to people. She's like Kim Kardashian. She's like Christina Hendricks. She's decidedly not like Natalie Portman.

Who's to say the way she looks isn't the body style that would have Westerosians(?) talking like that?

FWIW I don't have that reaction for any of the celebrities you mentioned (don't know who Christina Hendricks is), because that body type does not really appeal to me.

Which just goes to show how subjective it really is. I'm not trying to say your viewpoint is invalid, just that it is subjective.

Edit: Oh, Christina Hendricks is that chick from Firefly. Same reaction to her as the others, meh.

[Kalbear]

Also, if she's so sexy, Robert's indiscretions make less sense, and seem less like a threat to her. There's something particularly horrible about your spouse cheating on you with someone better looking.

See, I thought Robert fucking around with random women had nothing to do with beauty. Robert was the kind of man who could find beauty in any woman. He just wanted the strange. Cersei could have been (and likely was) the most beautiful woman in the realm, but she was still only one woman.

As always Michael Komarck is my standard for imagery from the books, and this is more of what I pictured her as. Not necessarily the clothing, but the demeanor. That little smile like she knows something wicked, that look in her eyes.

I do agree that this Cersei - the survivor one, the sympathetic one, the one that truly wanted Robert to love her and was rejected for a dead woman, the Cersei who is using Jaime to get something that she completely lacks in her normal life but knows it's a horrible idea - she doesn't need to be that sexy. This is not the book Cersei, at least not wholly. I really like that portrayal, and I think I like it more than the Cersei in the book. I like the idea of a woman who is downright pissed off that she can't have the power of a man not because she's beautiful and gets talked down to, but simply because she's got the powerhunger but is denied by the world her place in it. It's great.

But it is different, and I can absolutely see the differences between book and show - and if someone were bothered by it, that's definitely the most glaring change to me between the two.

[Who's to say the way she looks isn't the body style that would have Westerosians(?) talking like that?

It has nothing to do with body style. I think Lena Headey could easily play the seductive Cersei if she had chosen to and if D&D decided that was the way to do it. She didn't. This Cersei isn't seductive like that. This Cersei goes for being the perfect host, the gracious queen, the one who follows the pleasantries and rules and makes you feel like you're the center of her universe. Which is more interesting as a character arc. Though I'll point out that it's going to be...a bit odd to get into AFFC and have Cersei worry that Margaery is prettier or that her looks might be going away or whatever.

[smegma]

Who's to say the way she looks isn't the body style that would have Westerosians(?) talking like that?

FWIW I don't have that reaction for any of the celebrities you mentioned (don't know who Christina Hendricks is), because that body type does not really appeal to me.

Which just goes to show how subjective it really is. I'm not trying to say your viewpoint is invalid, just that it is subjective.

Edit: Oh, Christina Hendricks is that chick from Firefly. Same reaction to her as the others, meh.

Haha, I know, right? I think Natalie Portman is by far the hottest and can pull off sexy quite well, if you ask me. All in the eye of the beholder :)

[Papa Manderly's Meat Pie]

It has nothing to do with body style. I think Lena Headey could easily play the seductive Cersei if she had chosen to and if D&D decided that was the way to do it. She didn't. This Cersei isn't seductive like that. This Cersei goes for being the perfect host, the gracious queen, the one who follows the pleasantries and rules and makes you feel like you're the center of her universe. Which is more interesting as a character arc. Though I'll point out that it's going to be...a bit odd to get into AFFC and have Cersei worry that Margaery is prettier or that her looks might be going away or whatever.

Ahhh... Your argument makes more sense to me now, though I think others were more disappointed in the looks than her personality, and that is more what I was referring to.

I still don't think Cersei acted that seductive in the books early on, but it is hard to say, since she doesn't command much text early on in the books.

[Cereal Forel]

As always Michael Komarck is my standard for imagery from the books, and this is more of what I pictured her as. Not necessarily the clothing, but the demeanor. That little smile like she knows something wicked, that look in her eyes.

Thank god she doesn't look like that.

[ZombieWife]

Sigh. Stupid board defending itself.

Lena Headey is beautiful. She is not sexy, at least not by modern terms, and at least the way that she's playing Cersei. I always pictured Cersei as fairly vain, very beautiful, but most importantly sexy - and willing to use that sex appeal. The show Cersei isn't sexy, she's charming. I like it better, but it's most assuredly different than the books.

When has she had the chance to be sexy?

Winterfell (for her) booooring (except for a nice shag in an old tower).

On the Kingsroad? Was she supposed to be sexy when she was sticking up for her son (after the Arya/Micah situation)?

Or was she supposed to be sexy when she went to give Catelyn her "condolences?"

While Robert was mock-boffing the serving wench during the feast at Winterfell?

Whipped out her bosom as she got out of the cart (after traveling a month)?

Who is to say she won't be sexy? I just don't see that there has been a reasonable window here. :)

[ser_nerdick]

When has she had the chance to be sexy?

Winterfell (for her) booooring (except for a nice shag in an old tower).

On the Kingsroad? Was she supposed to be sexy when she was sticking up for her son (after the Arya/Micah situation)?

Or was she supposed to be sexy when she went to give Catelyn her "condolences?"

While Robert was mock-boffing the serving wench during the feast at Winterfell?

Whipped out her bosom as she got out of the cart (after traveling a month)?

Who is to say she won't be sexy? I just don't see that there has been a reasonable window here. :)

There was plenty of opportunity. I demand Cersei cleavage! :wideeyed:

[ZombieWife]

I've always felt exactly the same - I always got the Monica Bellucci oozing sex thing from Taena, and more of an ice queen except when she wants to be in a one on one setting from Cersei. She doesn't even enjoy sex most of the time, and usually only turns it up to serve her needs. Beautiful, but cold.

My view of her as well (from the books). I don't see that she has much of a chance in book 1 here, unless we see her attempt to seduce Ned or some such (or another scene with Jaime).

Books 2, 3 and 4 had much more sexiness. I think Cersei's smarter than that (though she does get a little sloppy in AFFC). I don't see her playing some tarted up bimbo, showing off her nipples to every man she wants something from. She's a queen not a prostitute.

[ZombieWife]

There was plenty of opportunity. I demand Cersei cleavage! :wideeyed:

Trust me, I'd love to see Lena Headey's boobage. But, I don't want it done just so the show can be more like Spartacus or some Skinemax POS. I want there to be reason, cause, motive and such. THAT brings the heat imho, not just boobs for boobs-sake (though that is nice in its own way). Tyrion's whores? Not the least bit enticing or sexy to me. Dany riding Drogo? (totally clothed) far more sexy.

I am in the "wait and see" group here. I think Cersei will amp it up--if not in this season then definitely next.

I've never pictured Cersei as an Atia-esque (Rome) character. She was more classy than that, imho. Icy, definitely icy.

[Kalbear]

Who is to say she won't be sexy? I just don't see that there has been a reasonable window here.

You might be right. I just haven't gotten that vibe so far.

[wolverine]

She is coming off as much more intelligent so far on HBO than in the books, but maybe I am just remembering her later on.

Watching Sansa again makes me remember why I used to hate her. How stupid is she? I know she is only 13 or whatever age they made her, but man is she detestable right now.

On another note, the girl playing Arya is probably a little to cute for Horseface.

[smegma]

My view of her as well (from the books). I don't see that she has much of a chance in book 1 here, unless we see her attempt to seduce Ned or some such (or another scene with Jaime).

Books 2, 3 and 4 had much more sexiness. I think Cersei's smarter than that (though she does get a little sloppy in AFFC). I don't see her playing some tarted up bimbo, showing off her nipples to every man she wants something from. She's a queen not a prostitute.

Yeah there really hasn't been an opportunity, but even so I think they will portray it either as genuine (with Jaime, maybe) or as a means to an end (with Ned and/or Lancel). For Cersei, sex is a tool that you use when necessary, not an ever-present state.

[CryFenril]

How Cersei "should" look is a classic example of each reader creating a visual image in their head, based on a personal standard of beauty. So I doubt most of us here would agree as to what she "should" look like in order to be beautiful.

Having said that, I just caught her subtle subversion of Ned at the inn - when they are all before Robert arguing about the fight, Ned says Sansa is in bed asleep. Cersei says "No, she's not. Sansa, come here, darling." And behold - here's Sansa, at Cersei's request.

She's taking control of Sansa before Ned even knows what's going on. Very subtle, very sneaky, and oh so very Cersei. Uber-points for the scene.

This version of Cersei strikes me as very dangerous, no matter what we may all think she's supposed to look like on the outside!

:thumbsup:

And on a completely different note, the combination of Ned's face as he drives the dagger in, plus the horrible sound Lady makes, actually made me a little weepy this time around. I didn't cry before because there were three other people in the room watching - but this time, yeah, the waterworks cranked up. Perfect setup for Bran's awakening, as has been noted before.

[Kalbear]

For Cersei, sex is a tool that you use when necessary, not an ever-present state.

The issue here is that for Cersei, sex is the only tool she knows how to use. Which is why she likely comes off as sexy to so many (and why the guards remark on her as well) - that she pretty much resorts to either sex or terror. That's it.

I don't think the Cersei we're seeing is going to be that limited. I don't think we're going to see her using either quite so cavalierly. I think we're also going to see that the sex with Jaime was there just for sex for her enjoyment, and not to control him, and that she doesn't view sex as just a tool.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she viewed sex as something fairly horrible other than with her brother and refused to resort to it at all.