[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[El-ahrairah]

I quite liked this one, but I did want to see the Three-Eyed Crow. I know Bran's dream would be impossible to film, but I really hope they will work one in in a later episode. And I wish they hadn't nixed the redundant yet charming expression "woman wife" when Dany chattered with her handmaids. It is known.

[flyingwind66]

I think the dirt and grit is good enough. If you think it's bad, watch Camelot. The women actually wear make-up.

makeup and cosmetics are not modern inventions... pearl powder, lip-stains, rouge, kohl for eyeliner and eyeshadow were all things available to women during the middle ages in different parts of the world albeit with different ingredients than their modern counterparts of foundation and lipstick etc.

[Xenophon]

Maybe these were discussed earlier and I missed it; if so, sorry for the repetition.

Why does Catelyn decide to go warn Ned herself? I get that she isn't willing to send Robb or Theon or the Maester, but why not send the fat guy who's there with them. I mean, she trusts him enough to tell him what she thinks, why not send him?

Also, does Robert not have his own guards on this trip? He seems to always be surrounded by Lannister men. Is this from the book, or have we just not seen the Baratheon troops yet?

[Josquius]

Can't remember much mention of baratheon household troops in the books no.

I think its to show how little he cares and how much the lannisters have wormed their way in.

[Centrist Simon Steele]

makeup and cosmetics are not modern inventions... pearl powder, lip-stains, rouge, kohl for eyeliner and eyeshadow were all things available to women during the middle ages in different parts of the world albeit with different ingredients than their modern counterparts of foundation and lipstick etc.

And a sidenote--Khal Drogo seems to be wearing tons of eye shadow. So...yeah

[TrueMetis]

And a sidenote--Khal Drogo seems to be wearing tons of eye shadow. So...yeah

Well I guess that puts the idea that they are savages to bed. :P

[Wolandit]

Hi all! Forum newbie/books veteran here,

just watched this second episode, I think the show is generally very good, but there are a few things which could have been done better, and others that I think were changed for the wrong reasons, while others I can't even understand why they were changed...

Definitely missed Bran's dream with the crow, damn it could have been done in CGI with a blue screen for him fallin...

Didn't Ned kill Lady with Ice? We see he's using a long knife...

Is Bran supposed to wake up the exact moment Lady is killed?

What's up with CSI:Catelyn? I feel it was completey unnecessary. The viewers know it was Cersei and Jaime, and the attemped murder was more than enough to send Catelyn to King's Landing...

I did not miss the "it should have been you" line.

Thumbs up for Tyrion and Arya's trial.

Hated the Cersei speech about her dead son. It seems to me it was put there to avoid the issue of representing a woman so willing to do an abortion, as it is in the books. It would have been bad for some powerful lobbies. Anyway they could have made her miscarry.

Maybe they're trying to give depth to the character, but I would have insisted on her love for Jaime instead. Anyway, she's a bit flat, even in the books, and I'm a huge Martin fan...

I think the Danaerys sex scenes were not good: the first has more nudity, but she is shown suffering; in the second one, which is supposed to be more erotic and pleasurable for her, is much less graphic. It should have been the exact opposite.

Dothraki in general are a bit of a disappointment: I imagined them as much more "asiatic" in their facial traits, much more like mongols and less like turks.

Hi all

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

So, the in-laws were in town this weekend and I didn't get around to watching until now -- but I did slog through all 35+ pages of these threads. That's dedication, yo. Dedication, or an unhealthy addiction for any ASOIAF discussion. I'll try not to repeat too many of the previous comments.

Things I liked:

• More Hound. The camera still hasn't lingered on his burn, which I can't decide is because they don't want to display a shoddy makeup job or because they want to hold it until the exposition of how the Hound became burned. Of course, all of that pales beside his complete lack of reaction to Tyrion bitchslapping Joffrey. "I'm the bodyguard of the prince, sure, but the queen's brother is beating him. Whichever side I take is going to result in just more trouble. I'll just stand here and try not to show how much I'm enjoying this."
  
• Doreah. I'm concerned that her scene deviated from the books quite a bit. I'm going to have to watch it several times over just to be sure. You know, for comparison purposes.
  
• Drogo's finely-sculpted posterior. Hey, I'm as straight as they come, but I can still recognize some ass-beauty when I see it.
  
• Direwolves! Although we're still missing Ghost (as discussed extensively), Grey Wind, and Shaggydog. Their time will come, I'm sure of it.
  
• Tyrion waking up from his bender in the dog pen, Ned using his knife rather than Ice to kill Lady, Tyrion's quip about "You know how much I love my family," Summer mauling the intruder then getting the snack the trainer tucked by Bran's neck...
  

Things I'm waffling about:

• The pacing of the episode as a whole. I felt it was weaker than the first episode, and I feel somewhat relieved that a number of reviewers agree with me -- it means that it only gets better from here. Oh, characters developed and plots developed, yeah, no question. Robert surpassed expectations both in the picnic lunch and the ad hoc throne room. Ned, again, was the perfect Ned, bound by honor and lost in the viper's nest of the court. Arya, Sansa and Joffrey nailed their scenes precisely. Dany? Well, she nailed a young slave girl, stared dreamily at her eggs, and rode the wild Dothraki pony. I realize she didn't do much more than that in the book, so I'm not up in arms about it, but it did stand out for me.
  

Things I didn't like:

• Jaime and Jon's unnecessary (to me) scene. I get it, Jaime's a dick, Jon's got stars in his eyes about the Night's Watch, but the former was made clear in Ep 1 and the latter was made clear with Tyrion's snarking about snarks. The only thing this scene gave me was an abiding sense of loss for Firefly. Why'd they have to give him that pseudo-duster?
  
• Still no mention of Theon, other than "he's the non-Stark kid who hangs out with the Starks, is eager to use his sword, and alternately smarts off to Robb or pledges his sword to him." He's got the House Greyjoy sigil in the opening sequence, but we haven't been told who the Greyjoys are. Hopefully we get that information before he gets into the meat of his role later in the season, otherwise we'll be adding just "...and he fights alongside Robb" to his full description.
  
• Five more days until episode 3.
  

Upon preview: please, Khal Drogo wears guyliner, none of that sissy Westerosi eye shadow.

[ZombieWife]

The issue here is that for Cersei, sex is the only tool she knows how to use. Which is why she likely comes off as sexy to so many (and why the guards remark on her as well) - that she pretty much resorts to either sex or terror. That's it.

I don't think the Cersei we're seeing is going to be that limited. I don't think we're going to see her using either quite so cavalierly. I think we're also going to see that the sex with Jaime was there just for sex for her enjoyment, and not to control him, and that she doesn't view sex as just a tool.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she viewed sex as something fairly horrible other than with her brother and refused to resort to it at all.

See, I disagree. I don't think sex is her only tool, not by far. :)

[ZombieWife]

Even so, I think he's supposed to look handsome to everyone, not just Sansa. He's the product of the gorgeous Lannister twins. And Jack Gleeson has a weird looking face.

But, like I said before, Gleeson does a very good job at playing the little bastard.

I find Jack Gleeson to be very attractive. He has very pretty eyes. When he was looking at Sansa during the Winterfell feast, he was a little hottie! :)

[The Anti-Targ]

Has this been discussed already?

Because of the Cat CSI sleuthing Tyrion is under a direct cloud of suspicion for the assassination attempt (he was off hunting for the fall from the tower). So how will they handle Tyrion's return to Winterfell? It's only a minor issue I suppose but does this mean Tyrion won't design Bran's Hodder saddle? Having Tyrion serve Bran so directly helps to highlight Tyrion's inherent qualities as a character, and also accentuates the injustice of his eventual capture by Cat, and the sense of vindication when Bronn successfully defends him.

Tyrion was on pretty friendly terms with the Starks in Winterfell when he travelled back through, but now his reception will be decidedly cool, if not openly hostile.

We do see a momentary glimpse of Ghost in the distance shot of the campfire scene where Jon and Tyrion have their little chat. I didn't notice that until my second viewing.

[Josquius]

I disliked ice not being used on Lady. Sort of defeats the point of Ned doing it if he is to butcher her anyway.

And yeah...Ghost has been oddly abscent. No sign of him on Jon's journey.

[Kaitscralt]

Tyrion was on pretty friendly terms with the Starks in Winterfell when he travelled back through, but now his reception will be decidedly cool, if not openly hostile.

He was? Robb was a total douche to him the entire time, and the direwolves nearly ripped him into a million pieces.

I disliked ice not being used on Lady. Sort of defeats the point of Ned doing it if he is to butcher her anyway.

A dagger is more personal, and adds a depth of emotionality to the show because Ned gets to crouch with Lady and hold her while he does it.

And yeah...Ghost has been oddly abscent. No sign of him on Jon's journey.

One sign of him. :)

[Kalbear]

Yeah, Tyrion's return to Winterfell has him almost attacked by the wolves and Robb openly questioning him; it's only when I believe either Cat or Luwin step in that they apologize and the dogs calm down.

Which...is interesting, come to think of it. I guess that this is the kid's reaction to a Lannister more than the wolves being intuitive, because Tyrion was genuinely innocent at the time. It's used sort of as foreshadowing, but it ends up being a red herring.

[Balefont]

it's only when I believe either Cat or Luwin step in that they apologize and the dogs calm down.

I think Cat's gone to KL by then, dear. :)

[Kalbear]

Fine, fine. You're right. I think Tyrion chastises them and the master calms 'em down. I've forgotten exactly how it goes. It'd film well though - Tyrion taking shit from them, the wolves getting pissed off, him shouting them down, and then the saddle being dropped off. Though...hmm.

We haven't learned yet that Bran's a cripple, have we? That hasn't been mentioned once. Whereas that was mentioned before Tyrion went to the wall, no?

[Balefont]

Fine, fine. You're right. I think Tyrion chastises them and the master calms 'em down. I've forgotten exactly how it goes. It'd film well though - Tyrion taking shit from them, the wolves getting pissed off, him shouting them down, and then the saddle being dropped off. Though...hmm.

We haven't learned yet that Bran's a cripple, have we? That hasn't been mentioned once. Whereas that was mentioned before Tyrion went to the wall, no?

No. I think Tyrion finds out after Jon gets a letter from Winterfell. "He's awake!"

[CryFenril]

Things I didn't like:

[*] Jaime and Jon's unnecessary (to me) scene. I get it, Jaime's a dick, Jon's got stars in his eyes about the Night's Watch, but the former was made clear in Ep 1 and the latter was made clear with Tyrion's snarking about snarks. The only thing this scene gave me was an abiding sense of loss for Firefly. Why'd they have to give him that pseudo-duster?

Lol, earlier I commented on the same thing. Hope this doesn't speak for the longevity of the series... is it too late to hear Bran say "I am a leaf on the wind"?

:leaving:

[Mya Stone]

I've heard alot on these forums the last few days I've been looking them voer about how much the Dire Wolves were a disappointment, not enough importance was given to them, no one that hasn't read the books are going to understand.

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3204374&st=45

This is the unspoiled thread on TV without Pity. Reading through that, especially on page 4, seems to me newcomers to the show grasp the importance of the dire wolves just fine, especially at this point in the story. I know when I read the series for the first time, it wasn't till much later in the book the dire wolf importance sank in.

Thank you for linking this. I'm reading it and giggling. One person suggested Cersei was Jon's mom. Could you imagine Ned and Cersei?! :lol:

But really, I'm loving reading their insights. It's refreshing.

[Greylander]

Things I didn't like:

• Jaime and Jon's unnecessary (to me) scene. I get it, Jaime's a dick, Jon's got stars in his eyes about the Night's Watch, but the former was made clear in Ep 1 and the latter was made clear with Tyrion's snarking about snarks. The only thing this scene gave me was an abiding sense of loss for Firefly. Why'd they have to give him that pseudo-duster.

That scene was much more important than you give credit, especially for non-readers:

• explains to the audience what the official/historical purpose of The Wall and Night's Watch
• tells the audience what the common attitude is towards The Wall: it no longer really serves a purpose, and the Night's Watch -- it's members are far from "elite"
• gives the heads up that serving in the Night's Watch is a life-long vow

Yes these fact may also be divulged elsewhere, but important points need to be repeated in different ways at different times so the viewer picks up on them.

As to character development, it is much more complex than "Jaime is a dick"... we know from later books that Jaime deeply resents his own vow and regards joining the Kingsguard as the defining mistake of his life. Here he see's Jon about to make a similar mistake at about the same age. In his arrogant and sarcastic manner, Jaime is trying to give Jon some good advice... but he cannot be nice about it, as he loathes the world that so unfairly misjudges him. When he says "...it's only for life" you just know he is referring to his own vow as much as to Jon's.

Having given the scene some additional thought, I think Jon should have gotten in a "Kingslayer" jab to even the score for Jaime's "bastard" remarks -- but then again insults are not his style.