[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[CryFenril]

If you were a chicken in a dark alley, Arya would smack you over the head and tie you to her belt, then offer to trade you in for a bowl o' brown.

[Greylander]

Am I the only person who thinks the casting of Ilyn Payne was good. Sure, it would be great if he were taller, but next to the Clegane bros everyone is going to look short. I think the actor playing Payne definitely gets across the crazed, seperateness of the character. Perhaps his eyes aren't as dead as they could be, but for new viewers he's going to be perfectly psycho and inhuman.

Or maybe I'm just an HBO apologist. *shrugs*

I agree. I think Ilyn Payne was excellent. He may not be exactly as described in the books, but can we expect every minor character to be identical? I imagine Ilyn is likely to have a role ahead that blends in other minor characters.

His silent stare and overall demeanor did have a scary quality as it would be seen by a child... but I think his face expressed so much sadness and pain (payne?) that the producers may be intending to play up the fact that he is one of the Mad King's victims, so while he is the "scary executioner", he may also have a sympathetic part to play ahead -- I could easily see him having a role helping Arya or Sansa escape and/or ending up in the BwoB.

The way he looked at Sansa, I almost think he wished he could warn her what a douche Joff is.

Watch his face in all his scenes. I think the casting was damned genius, and I'll bet he'll be a more interesting character in the show than in the books.

[Greylander]

I do think it was strange that they left in the "he scares me too" line. I don't think that dude would really "scare" Sandor;

I think in the show, and probably in the book, "he scares me too" is meant in jest -- partly because the Hound knows that he is the truly scary looking one. The Hound's only real fear is fire.

[VikingLegion]

GRRM has said he regrets certain decisions, and he is involved enough in the production of this that I'm sure some of the changes were made with his blessing or even on his suggestion. :dunno:

It may help you to read the whole thread, though, and see that not everyone can be neatly split into two parties of TV apologists and TV haters. That's so 10 pages ago. ;) In fact, the reason I made polls for this week and last week was to debunk the rumor that everyone who's nitpicking has a negative view of the show overall, because both episodes, so far, have gotten around an 8/10, which I think is pretty good. (And, may I add, it's not a bimodal distribution of haters and kool-aid drinkers, either. Seriously, you seem to like coming into threads and making sweeping generalizations about posters here. Last time, the board was full of puritans. Maybe you can try and ascribe a little more nuance to us next time? 'Cause it's definitely in people's posts.)

Interesting to hear he's publically admitted to regretting some decisions. Thank you, I was not aware of that. And that was really what I was trying to stress - whether the modifications we've seen were HBO's call or (partially) GRRM's. I'm not sure if we'll ever know exactly which changes can be ascribed to GRRM and which ones to D&D, but at least knowing he's involved means things can't get changed to the point where it can massively effect the source material (I'm looking at you Legend of the Seeker).

The thought of GRRM using what he's learned in the last 15 years to actually improve upon this masterpiece has me quite excited, though I can certainly understand how any change can make some nervous. Some people get pretty heavily emotionally invested in stuff like this, and tend to take on a feeling of ownership.

[Kalbear]

Interesting to hear he's publically admitted to regretting some decisions. Thank you, I was not aware of that. And that was really what I was trying to stress - whether the modifications we've seen were HBO's call or (partially) GRRM's. I'm not sure if we'll ever know exactly which changes can be ascribed to GRRM and which ones to D&D, but at least knowing he's involved means things can't get changed to the point where it can massively effect the source material (I'm looking at you Legend of the Seeker).

Well, one big one that was completely fine with GRRM was aging up everyone. He regrets setting the ages of the kids as what he did because it really screwed up his system for AFFC and ADWD.

[johnnysd]

Something occurred to me about the series today. They are really hitting on the lineage of Jon really hard and it is a central mystery of the series so far. (Yes, I realize it is in the book too, but I think it is more front and center in the show)

I doubt though that they will take the mystery into season 5 or 6 whenever it is definitively revealed in the books. So I am thinking that there is a good chance that the series actually reveals who Jon's parents are in this season, probably as something the viewers will know but that the characters in the show still do not. It makes sense from a payoff standpoint for the series as well as providing a lit of depth and connection with his character develops throughout the show.

Think of how poignant his relationship will seem with Maester Aemon if we know for sure who Jon is. Or how people will view Dany, or thr added tragedy of him taking the vows not knowing who he really is.

I really think that the show will "spolierize" Jon Snows lineage this season on the show

[oneeye]

I don't think so, Ned promised they would talk about it and we all know how that worked out.

[Kalbear]

Jon's true parentage could be 'spoiled' earlier in the show...but who would do it? Ned's gonna die, Howland Reed isn't even cast yet, and we barely know anything about the backstory to even allow us to spoil anything.

I think Jon's parentage might be revealed eventually, but I think it's also going to be one of the longstanding mysteries of the show - something that gets built on as things progress but otherwise is not worked on heavily.

For us, I wouldn't expect to find out anything substantial until Dance, at least - and I don't think Jon would find out the truth until the next book. I'd be shocked if we find out anything more than that in the show.

Put it another way: there would be a revolt if Jon's parentage was revealed on the show before it was in the books. A huge, huge revolt. Since ADWD comes out on 7/12, that means that no matter what, if it were revealed this season it would be before the book.

[GileanTheGrey]

Put it another way: there would be a revolt if Jon's parentage was revealed on the show before it was in the books. A huge, huge revolt. Since ADWD comes out on 7/12, that means that no matter what, if it were revealed this season it would be before the book.

I'll be sharpening my pitchfork and putting pitch on my torches to join this particular rebellion should there be any indication this were to happen. :box: :angry2:

[TerraPrime]

I really think that the show will "spolierize" Jon Snows lineage this season on the show

This is about as likely as the show spoiling what the motives of the Others are. Jon's identity is inextricably tied to the story about the Others. The big confrontation with the Others is going to be one of the final climaxes in the series. So no, not gonna happen.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

There, finally got around to watching it in slo-mo, backwards, forwards, and looking for all the tiny details that please a tiny mind like mine. Plus, it gives me an excuse to talk about this some more.

• Poor Australian shepherd got a face full of Tyrion's posterior, post-drinking: http://i.imgur.com/qcf71.jpg
  
• The Hound used to be Massive Headwound Harry on SNL: http://i.imgur.com/bxbXQ.jpg
  
• Ghost, hanging out in his one appearance this episode: http://i.imgur.com/R4M1c.jpg
  
• Summer just wants to hug people! http://i.imgur.com/Lt0Gd.png
  
• And Nymeria's a boy. A blurry boy due to the motion, but definitely a boy: http://i.imgur.com/pq6Gq.jpg
  

When I realized I was staring at Lady's crotch to see if that dog was also male, and was humming to myself "Dude looks like a Lady", I knew it was time to wrap things up.

[Jon of the Wall]

I agree that this scene did not really pack the emotional punch for me that I felt it should have. Reading about how she had to throw rocks at Nymeria always made me teary eyed, but the scene just seemed rushed and almost comical to me. But, I think that had to do with time. They just had so much to fit into this episode.

Mmmmmm Joan.

[Given]

Absolutely loving the show so far, almost every character has been portrayed perfectly. My favorite scene so far in terms of awesomeness-factor goes is definitely Summer saving Bran and Catelyn, and I know a lot of non-readers are loving the direwolves. So I guess my main gripe so far would be that we haven't seen much of Ghost. I think maybe twice - when they find the wolves and in the zoomed out shot in episode 2 when Tyrion and Jon are camping out on the way to the Wall you see Ghost curled up. Think we're going to see more of Ghost in the coming weeks? Didn't see any of him in the preview for next week. I sure hope so.

[The Anti-Targ]

I have not kept up with the entire thread, so apologies if I regurgitate something that's already been discussed.

I really dislike Cat's "I want you to leave" to Jon. Can anyone tell me if it's like this in the books? I've read AGOT twice, but it's been a few years. It just seems to off. I know that Cat resents Jon's presence for obvious reasons, but his love of Bran and Arya is plain for all to see. How could she not appreciate him some more? Was it this way in the book? I know I remember that she had some resentment, but I just don't remember that it was that strong as that scene implied.

Also, I have a man-crush on Robb Stark. I know that this little item was essential to the quality of the discussion on this board, so you're welcome. :P

Well given in the conversation from the book she says it should have been Jon that fell out of a window I think the "I want you to leave" line is quite mild.

[LugaJetboyGirl]

• The Hound used to be Massive Headwound Harry on SNL: http://i.imgur.com/bxbXQ.jpg

LOL. Good eye.

[Gertrude]

I've been reading the TWoP thread linked earlier, lots of fun. I am happy to see that lots of people think that Jon is Lyanna's son, but most think it is Robert's that he never knew about, or the late King's. They got Targ, but not the right one (assuming R+L=J, of course). I saw at least one person saying that perhaps Lyanna ran away with the prince willingly, and more than a few thought Ned and Cersei, just as someone mentioned earlier in this thread. Very interesting to read. And it brings the funny too.

I mean, winter tends to be a harsh season in primitive times, but I'm guessing the entire "Winter is coming" portends something more than "so you'd better take a sweater."

Although that would be pretty excellent. Ned Stark travelling south to spread the gospel of practical knitwear.

and ...

Oh, and thanks for the thousand of closeups of hot dragon eggs. Hagrid recommends a pot over a fire though.

[Jon of the Wall]

Other than Ilyn Payne, who else is poorly cast and why? I'll admit they might not all "look" exactly like I imagined, but they ACT spot on the personalities. (and the looks are close enough to not matter when the personality shows through)

Not everything is about looks. In fact, most of it is about presence. Ser Ilyn had none. He looks like that little fellow Benny Hill used to pat on the head all the time. He is a joke FFS.

I guess only Arya, Tyrion and Eddard are spot on when it comes to presence. I know that is not ALL due to casting but much of it is.

Then of course you have the Ds totally changing people’s characters, presumably their entire arc and possibly their fate.

Catelyn was once a pragmatic, noble character. Now she is a spiteful, nagging, hand-wringing bitch. She knew that eventually Robert would resent Ned for not taking the position of Hand and subsequently become his enemy and therefore regrettably talked him in to going to King's Landing. That particular scene foreshadowed her strategic military prowess later on. How are we to later believe that this pitiful shrew of a woman is capable of doing what she does?

Cersei is not supposed to be a sympathetic character. Most folks here seem glad they humanized her but that is NOT HER. That is a massive change. Jamie can be humanized but not Cersei..

Costumes, hair color and size can be dismissed as practical changes but changing someone’s entire character? Seems to me there is more going on here than meets the eye.

I hope this is not a case of “Hollywood Strikes Again”.

[The Dude]

I have not kept up with the entire thread, so apologies if I regurgitate something that's already been discussed.

I really dislike Cat's "I want you to leave" to Jon. Can anyone tell me if it's like this in the books? I've read AGOT twice, but it's been a few years. It just seems to off. I know that Cat resents Jon's presence for obvious reasons, but his love of Bran and Arya is plain for all to see. How could she not appreciate him some more? Was it this way in the book? I know I remember that she had some resentment, but I just don't remember that it was that strong as that scene implied.

What she said in the book was much worse, iirc: "It should have been you"

There has been a lot of discussion over the change - I prefer the milder "I want you to leave" for basically the reasons you mentioned.

[Ahri Adaran]

Catelyn was once a pragmatic, noble character. Now she is a spiteful, nagging, hand-wringing bitch.

*blinks*

Did you see the same TV show that I did? As far as I could tell, they've softened Catelyn and tries to make her more sympathetic than the book version. What specifically is your opinion based on?

[smegma]

As far as changes to the character's personality goes, I think this is a deliberate move on D & D's part. I believe that we will see Catelyn, Cersei, and others exhibit a lot of character growth over the course of the show. We know we have at least three seasons of Cat, four plus with Cersei, etc, and if these characters didn't change much to the viewer it would be less interesting because there's no evolution of what we see. It's different in a book, but on tv if the character stays the same from season one episode one to season three episode ten, viewers will get bored. Maybe not bored, but will be less compelled than if they witness it themselves over time. So I imagine we will see Cat exhibit her nobility and strength, her political acumen, etc - it just isn't immediately presented to the viewer. Drogo's more caring side will be shown a few episodes into the series, rather than immediately on the night of their wedding. HBO is well renowned for their character arcs, and it will be something that we will see expressed over time, rather than all up front.

Could I be wrong about this? Sure. Maybe they just keep the characters a great deal more one-note than what readers would expect, and instead focus on the plot twists only. But I would not be surprised if we get to see glimpses of the other sides of these characters.

So tired, so if this is rambling, I apologize.