[BOOK SPOILERS] Ep. 102 Discussion Part the Second

[shibby]

I"m not sure if it's been discussed already, but I think that Ser Ilyn is a total miscast. A short, old, funny-looking bald dude is supposed to be the Kings Justice? That expression he had on his face when Sansa ran into him was comical, not brooding evil liked I'd imagined in the book. The dude is supposed to be walking Death. What the hell is up with that?

[Nichole]

Watching Sansa again makes me remember why I used to hate her. How stupid is she? I know she is only 13 or whatever age they made her, but man is she detestable right now.

I'm really curious to see how she does when her role gets more difficult. So far Sophie Turner has done stupid 13 year old girl well, but Sansa's role will change and will be a challenge for a young actor.

[Kalbear]

It's been remarked upon. Over and over again.

And yes, it's pretty sad. I keep expecting someone to come up to him and say "

?" and have him mutter under his breath 'great...googly moogly'.

I just want to give that old grandpa a big hug.

[Cereal Forel]

On another note, the girl playing Arya is probably a little to cute for Horseface.

Arya is supposed to be beautiful, she's supposed to take after Lyanna whom everything considered beautiful. I always thought Sansa called her Horseface, and we know how good Sansa is at judging beauty :rolls eyes:

Edit: and Kaylee was way hotter than Zoe.

[Kat]

I never saw sex as the only tool Book Cersei was able to use well. She had to have a certain degree of skill in the charm, manners and acting department, or else she never would have been able to put Sansa under her spell, or get Ned to believe her. Maybe she's not as skilled at playing the game as some others, but she definitely has more than just her sex appeal. The difference is that she's one of the only players who we ever see use sex appeal, because she's one of the only ones who can. I mean, who's going to fall for sex appeal if it's Tywin, Littlefinger, Varys, the Queen of Thorns, etc.? I guess we see Renly sort of doing it, or sex and charm were one of the ways he got the Tyrells on his side (possibly unintentionally), but for the first few books, is there anyone else?

[smegma]

The issue here is that for Cersei, sex is the only tool she knows how to use. Which is why she likely comes off as sexy to so many (and why the guards remark on her as well) - that she pretty much resorts to either sex or terror. That's it.

I don't think the Cersei we're seeing is going to be that limited. I don't think we're going to see her using either quite so cavalierly. I think we're also going to see that the sex with Jaime was there just for sex for her enjoyment, and not to control him, and that she doesn't view sex as just a tool.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if she viewed sex as something fairly horrible other than with her brother and refused to resort to it at all.

Well as I said, Jaime may be the only genuine sexual gratification and/or appearance that she can muster. So he is the exception, but even then, she eventually turns cold on him as well.

Edit: But it's not her only tool, I think that's a gross mischaracterization. She has charm and some wit and some smarts, maybe not as much as others, but it's there.

Also, yeah Arya was not UGLY, she was often described as a beautiful girl that resembled Lyanna. She is called horseface, but there's plenty of other people that disagree. I think Maisie Williams is absolutely perfect and adorable (and did anyone notice she had a little bit of a lisp in the Needle scene? My heart melted when I heard that).

[Cereal Forel]

I figured Renly got the Tyrells on his side by banging Loras

[Tywin's bastard]

Having said that, I just caught her subtle subversion of Ned at the inn - when they are all before Robert arguing about the fight, Ned says Sansa is in bed asleep. Cersei says "No, she's not. Sansa, come here, darling." And behold - here's Sansa, at Cersei's request.

She's taking control of Sansa before Ned even knows what's going on. Very subtle, very sneaky, and oh so very Cersei. Uber-points for the scene.

I noticed that scheme of Cersei's as well and I too liked it. It plays further on that Sansa is being influenced by the Lannisters and that Cersei knows how to get her way.

As for Ilyn Payne I think he looks pretty close to how I imagined him, other than that he's shorter.

[RedWeddingCake]

I"m not sure if it's been discussed already, but I think that Ser Ilyn is a total miscast. A short, old, funny-looking bald dude is supposed to be the Kings Justice? That expression he had on his face when Sansa ran into him was comical, not brooding evil liked I'd imagined in the book. The dude is supposed to be walking Death. What the hell is up with that?

I could not agree more and thought more people would bring this up. The guy is completely wrong for the part.

[Lannister? Barely knew 'er]

I don't get it.

The second image is of Philadelphia Eagles quarterback and colossal douchebag Michael Vick, who spent some 23 months in prison for running a dogfighting ring. If you want all the details: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_Newz_Kennels_dog_fighting_investigation

That being said, I cracked the HELL up at that.

[Kalbear]

Arya is supposed to be beautiful, she's supposed to take after Lyanna whom everything considered beautiful. I always thought Sansa called her Horseface, and we know how good Sansa is at judging beauty :rolls eyes:

Arya's supposed to be beautiful...eventually. Right now (in the books) she has the unfortunate long nose and long face of the starks (hence the horseface bit) and combines that with the lack of grace and charm that Sansa has.

I never figured she was beautiful now. She looks like Lyanna, but that's not the best thing early on. She's a tomboy, and like a lot of tomboys she probably doesn't look all that great right now.

Maisie doesn't look facially like I pictured Arya looking - again, long nose, long face. I don't care, because she's fucking nailing the part.

[Geriant]

For the most part, I think they did a great job with casting. Even the ones I don't think 'look' right are doing a great job with the characters. When I first saw who was cast for some parts, I was disappointed. Specifically, Cersei, Jon Snow and Catelyn Stark.

When I first heard of the books being adapted to show on HBO, I more or less pictured Lena Headey as Catelyn Stark. To me, she looked the part, beautiful but not instantly OMG she is hot sort of thing. With the roles she has played, she seemed a perfect fit. I was needless to say disappointed to see she was going to be Cersei. I am liking her acting for the role, but she just doesn't seem to fit the role of incredibly beautiful queen who sees her looks as one of her main weapons to use (not that they are her only weapon mind you). I also think Michelle Fairley is doing a great job with Catelyn as she is written for the tv series, I just think Lena Headey would be a better choice. I can't really say who might make a better Cersei than Lena, but I've always pictured her as Michelle Pfieffer-esque from when she played Catwoman or Isabeau in Ladyhawke when reading the books. I've seen some mention Rebecca De Morney, who could fit the look as well from her Hand that Rocks the Cradle days, but not sure she has the acting chops to pull off Cersei.

For Jon Snow, Kit Harington has done a great job with his portrayal of the character but again the way he looks is almost completely wrong for me. I'm beginning to think it is the hair more than anything.. being curly and black, I keep thinking he looks more like Robert's bastard than a Stark bastard (Ned or Lyanna depending on which theory you believe)when I see him on the screen. Also, the scruffy beard he, Robb and Theon have just seem.. wrong. I really have no clue who else could have done the role, but Kit just doesn't look the part.

All that being said, I have been watching the series so far trying not to judge the look and just take the characters as they are presented - but it is hard sometimes. They have all done excellent jobs with the characters (the main ones anyhow), and I have to say Arya and Bran are spot on in just about every way. Dinklage's Tyrion is awesome even though he may not look the part, but I never expected them to capture Tyrion's 'look' without heavy makeup. Sean Bean is Eddard Stark in every way, shape and form.. plus I love the scars they have given him. When I see them, I wonder if they are from Ser Arthur Dayne and the battle at the Tower of Joy.

[Ser Kevan Raley]

IIRC Joff's handsomeness was generally commented on through Sansa's POV, which was colored by her own personal romanticism regarding nobility, chivalry, gallantry etc. She gave Joff the benefit of the doubt in all these areas (at least during the first 90% of AGOT) simply because of his social station. Ergo, he was handsome to Sansa BECAUSE he was her prince.

Even so, I think he's supposed to look handsome to everyone, not just Sansa. He's the product of the gorgeous Lannister twins. And Jack Gleeson has a weird looking face.

But, like I said before, Gleeson does a very good job at playing the little bastard.

[oneeye]

I wonder how someone who hasn't read the books twice and discussed on these forums here for homework, could make sense of some of the characters like Ilyn Payne and Theon, even the Hound, who all will be important later. They need name tags or something for the less advanced viewers to appreciate them more :P

[alguien]

I've always thought that the "wild times" were really just Robert's drunken recollections/projections onto Ned of what Robert actually did himself. Robert starts telling Ned about Ned's woman with the huge tits, and it turns out to be Robert's. I'm thinking that's the way it generally happened. If it's a buddy movie, Ned's the straight guy. Robert gets drunk and whores, Ned probably has some beer and talks to someone, and Robert remembers it as the both of them drinking and whoring their way across Westeros. Then Ned's pulling Robert out of a bunch of gutters.

That also would be consistent with other people thinking of Jon as being the one stain on Ned's otherwise unblemished "honor".

Though the way Sean Bean played Ned during that meal, it made him seem like he was a bit more... human than the Ned Stark we get in the show. He was willing to joke around and reminisce. Catelyn views Robert (and rightly so, tbh) as the wild friend you'd rather your husband didn't hang out with.

Which in some ways, the way Bean's depicting him makes sense to me. I always thought it was a bit odd that Robert "Bluto" Baratheon was friends with Ned "Stick in the Mud" Stark. The show seems to do much better at depicting why they're friends.

[Bronn Stone]

Arya is supposed to be beautiful, she's supposed to take after Lyanna whom everything considered beautiful. I always thought Sansa called her Horseface, and we know how good Sansa is at judging beauty :rolls eyes:

Actually, she's not beautiful. She specifically mentions that nobody calls her beautiful when she is compared to Lyanna at the same age. She'll grow into her looks (as Lyanna did), but hasn't gotten them yet. I'd say physical beauty is one of the things that Sansa IS quite qualified to evaluate.

[Xenophon]

I wonder how someone who hasn't read the books twice and discussed on these forums here for homework, could make sense of some of the characters like Ilyn Payne and Theon, even the Hound, who all will be important later. They need name tags or something for the less advanced viewers to appreciate them more :P

Meh, I only read the books once, and I'm having no problems with the characters--or at least no problems that I'm aware of ;). It's really no worse than The Wire or Deadwood. Most of the minor characters are fairly visually distinctive, which helps. Theon/Robb/Jon was hard at first, but now that Jon's gone, it's easier.

[BlackStoneCA]

I've heard alot on these forums the last few days I've been looking them voer about how much the Dire Wolves were a disappointment, not enough importance was given to them, no one that hasn't read the books are going to understand.

http://forums.televisionwithoutpity.com/index.php?showtopic=3204374&st=45

This is the unspoiled thread on TV without Pity. Reading through that, especially on page 4, seems to me newcomers to the show grasp the importance of the dire wolves just fine, especially at this point in the story. I know when I read the series for the first time, it wasn't till much later in the book the dire wolf importance sank in.

[aeu]

I wonder how someone who hasn't read the books twice and discussed on these forums here for homework, could make sense of some of the characters like Ilyn Payne and Theon, even the Hound, who all will be important later. They need name tags or something for the less advanced viewers to appreciate them more :P

Why should the viewers appreciate them on the first watch? Admittedly, it has been awhile since I last read the series, but I don't think they are important in AGOT (or in Ser Ilyn's case, in any book so far, though that may potentially change.)

Was Hound a fan favorite or Theon more than a background character before AFFC came out?

[Josquius]

So, apparently this was the weakest episode of the first 6 according to the reviewers...maybe so, maybe so. Not much happened did it? Surprisingly not even much in the way of graphic sex with Dani- was that a pilot only thing and they toned it down later? Suits me just fine but a strange change.

Cersei talking about her first son dying- was this in the books? I can't remember her ever having had Robert's kid. Been ages since I read the first book but only recently I read the fourth and I'm sure I remember her saying she made sure to drink moon tea, have him come on her stomach, etc... every time he tried it with her so she wouldn't have his kid.

It really does seem all a bit vague. I really hope people who haven't read the books are following it. I'm probally not giving them enough credit here. I mean...Mad Men and the like don't spell every little thing out. But still.

The episode overall was a bit disjointed and jumpy. I'm really just waiting for the end of the series when the war starts up I guess!

Theon I hate. Still no explanation of who the hell he is.

The maester looks freaky and his chain is bad.

I'm coming around to the Hound though, he does look better in this episode than the first.