Fantasy Game Changers

[emberling]

Pratchett is hardly in a genre by himself; even if you claim that the secondary-world fantasy makes it a different genre than Douglas Adams and Christopher Moore, there's still Robert Asprin and Piers Anthony. It's just that those two suck horribly. (They still sold a lot of books, and gave me plenty of entertainment when I was 7 or so.)

I thought the gay in Pern was more like: Green dragons are female and have male riders. When dragons mate their riders also mate in the resulting frenzy. But it's okay even if you think GAY IS YUCK because they had no choice. And they try to pretend it didn't happen afterward.

I'm not sure if I've read it since I really understood what gay was, though, so maybe I just missed it.

(And if you're talking about something that happened in books other than Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The White Dragon, the Harper Hall trilogy, and maybe All the Weyrs of Pern, that's kind of like talking about Highlander II, or any prequel to Dune: a hypothetical exercise in discussion of a book or movie that doesn't actually exist.)

[Seli]

Are these considered 'military SF'? When you hear the term 'military SF' do you think of the outliers (that are undeniably SF set in the military) like Ender's Game, Starship Troopers and its two 'updates' (the other being Old Man's War)? For me it just conjures up images of capital ships firing broadsides, and series like Dread Empire's Fall and Honor Harrington.

(I'm asking this question genuinely, not rhetorically. I'm not well read in the genre.)

I always understood most military SF is basically 'MARINES in SPAAAACE' or 'AGE OF SAIL in SPAAAACE', depending who the story focusses on. I think there is a further setting which is 'LIBERTARIAN SUPERPEOPLE in SPAAAACE', but that could be an indication I have paid too much attention to the Baen stable.

[PaulineMRoss]

I don't know to what extent fantasy existed as a genre before the mid-late 70's, or at least pre-LOTR, but I'm listing some anyway.

The Wikipedia page on 'History of Fantasy' divides the whole topic into (essentially) pre-Tolkien, Tolkien, post-Tolkien, which kind of tells you who they think THE game-changer is.

Of Martin they say:

'A Game Of Thrones is considered a path-breaking work which paved the [way] for a new kind of fantasy, which was less idealistic and more violent in nature.' [typo fixed] Path-breaking = game-changing, no?

[SkynJay]

Pratchett is hardly in a genre by himself; even if you claim that the secondary-world fantasy makes it a different genre than Douglas Adams and Christopher Moore, there's still Robert Asprin and Piers Anthony. It's just that those two suck horribly. (They still sold a lot of books, and gave me plenty of entertainment when I was 7 or so.)

I thought the gay in Pern was more like: Green dragons are female and have male riders. When dragons mate their riders also mate in the resulting frenzy. But it's okay even if you think GAY IS YUCK because they had no choice. And they try to pretend it didn't happen afterward.

I'm not sure if I've read it since I really understood what gay was, though, so maybe I just missed it.

(And if you're talking about something that happened in books other than Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The White Dragon, the Harper Hall trilogy, and maybe All the Weyrs of Pern, that's kind of like talking about Highlander II, or any prequel to Dune: a hypothetical exercise in discussion of a book or movie that doesn't actually exist.)

I stopped reading around All the Weyrs of Pern as well, so i sure though it was in there. It may have been in the prequel where they put up the dragonstones though. I dont remember it being "gay is yuck." I though it was one of the blue dragon riders with one of the greens for some reason. Meh, I cant say for sure though. You may be right.

[Starkess]

I thought the gay in Pern was more like: Green dragons are female and have male riders. When dragons mate their riders also mate in the resulting frenzy. But it's okay even if you think GAY IS YUCK because they had no choice. And they try to pretend it didn't happen afterward.

I'm not sure if I've read it since I really understood what gay was, though, so maybe I just missed it.

(And if you're talking about something that happened in books other than Dragonflight, Dragonquest, The White Dragon, the Harper Hall trilogy, and maybe All the Weyrs of Pern, that's kind of like talking about Highlander II, or any prequel to Dune: a hypothetical exercise in discussion of a book or movie that doesn't actually exist.)

It changed as the author's views on it changed. Back when she first started writing, Ms. McCaffrey subscribed to the (apparently prevalent?) idea that having anal sex releases some sort of hormone that makes you like it and therefore be gay, or something wonky like that. So the green and blue riders had sex during mating flights and then kind of became gay.

Later, she changed her views on the issue and from then I think her characters were just gay to start with.

But either way, there are definitely gay relationships in the books that are presented matter-of-factly and lovingly. I wish I could remember the name of the one couple that gets attacked by felines...fuck. It's been a while since my super-Pern-fandom. But anyway. That's what I remember.

[Nukelavee]

skipped a couple pages to write this (so i won't forget what i wanted to say - i actually find this thread really interesting, and am gonnna go back to read what i missed).

For the record - I don't equate Brookes, Goodkind, Errikson, etc with each other...I'm just saying they fall into the personal "don't read them" category, so I can't really judge them beyond what reading one book or so lets me.

I agree with what people have said about Brookes, crap or not, yes, he did jump start fantasy sales. But does that make him a game changer? Maybe for the publishers, but not for the writers themselves, I don't think.

Introspective and Donaldson...hmm. When did the first novel come out? 1977?

Ah, but what about CJ Cherryh, and "Gate of Ivrel". Every bit as bleak and depressing, with protagonists as flawed as Donaldson's, and it predates Lord Foul.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that how do you determine a "game-changer"? Cook doesn't seem to have th ereadership of some of the other names discussed... but how many of them liked what he was doing? How many of us discovered other writers who do it better than Cook, and are more known, because of Cook?

(the same can be said for a lot of writers, or asked, rather).

I think in the end, one can really only call a very few writers "genre defining". Most others, no mattter how good they are, really only define or influence their readers (and then the feedback from sales may give the next guy a contract).

Personally, Drake, Cherryh, and Cook are some of the most influential writers for me, and my "bookbuddies". From them I learned not all scifi/fantasy is bright, or clean, or about right and wrong, good and evil. They were my first experiences with protagonists that were unlikable or hard to relate to, stories where I couldn't expect to see favourite characters survive, and changes in the way I percieved standard templates.

Martin, while I enjoy most of his works, is less what I'd consider groundbreaking or game changing...but I would say that, at this point, Fire and Ice is the epitome or acme of the current work in the genre.

[Nukelavee]

I think people are generalizing the military sci-fi thing to an extent.

Drake in particular is much more "Black Company" with hovertanks than "marines in spaaaace". He is actually exploring the relationships between troops, and civilians, or military vs the society that uses them, then he is telling a story of adventure.

Webber is basically exactly what you said. (So i says to TommyBob one night, I says "Webber isn't too bad once you train yourself to basically scan the book for the nifty naval actions and skip anything dealing with the characters.")

Now, Drake does do teh Horatio Hornblower thing with the Leary books, but he admits it.

So, to consider military scifi as one lump is to equate all fantasy with, oh, Thieve's World.

[Grack21]

Webber has never denied that he's writing Hornblower in space. One of his earlier books is dedicated to Foster.

And as weird as it is, Pern is considered scifi in most circles for some reason that makes no sense.

Pratchett is hardly in a genre by himself; even if you claim that the secondary-world fantasy makes it a different genre than Douglas Adams and Christopher Moore, there's still Robert Asprin and Piers Anthony. It's just that those two suck horribly. (They still sold a lot of books, and gave me plenty of entertainment when I was 7 or so.)

I still think Asprin is good for a laugh or two. It's not like he was trying to create anything epic or meaningful, they were silly fun. I'm still kind of miffed that non one noticed when he passed away. Also, he never wrote books about young girls panties.

[Grack21]

whoops, double post.

[Galactus]

Isn't Pern explicitly an alien planet and stuff? (hence soft sf)

Maybe for the publishers, but not for the writers themselves, I don't think.

Oh, I'd disagree there. He arguably made a lot of writers think they could get published, and so decided to make an attempt.

Literature is art, but it's also a business :P

[emberling]

Yeah, Pern is unquestionably SF unless you live in a world without All the Weyrs (which is a legitimate choice, IMO, for this very reason). And it predates Shannara so it's obviously SF because fantasy doesn't sell.

On Asprin vs. Anthony, I side with Anthony. Better and more interesting ideas, and a better writer. Squick and all. (But there's only about 14 Xanth books. Anyone who tells you there are more is as deluded as these people who think there's like 20 Pern books.)

[Grack21]

Yeah, Pern is unquestionably SF unless you live in a world without All the Weyrs (which is a legitimate choice, IMO, for this very reason). And it predates Shannara so it's obviously SF because fantasy doesn't sell.

On Asprin vs. Anthony, I side with Anthony. Better and more interesting ideas, and a better writer. Squick and all. (But there's only about 14 Xanth books. Anyone who tells you there are more is as deluded as these people who think there's like 20 Pern books.)

How does that work? I wish there were only 5 or so Feist books, but you can't ignore the others no matter how hard you want to. If a different author had written them then ok, but that man is still pumping those things out like potato chips.

And, I'm sorry, but what ideas? That children are sexy?

[polishgenius]

Oh, I'd disagree there. He arguably made a lot of writers think they could get published, and so decided to make an attempt.

Literature is art, but it's also a business :P

This is exactly why Eddings started writing fantasy. He had no intention of doing so until he saw how well it was selling. He was also clearly inspired by Star Wars though- in plot terms, and to a certain degree characters, there's a lot more similarities to SW than LotR in the Belgariad. I mean, the main character is a sandy-haired farmboy who lives with his Aunt. And ends up a chosen one with a glowing blue sword, via travelling with a wise wizard and a totally awesome loveable rogue. And the bad guy has a metal mask to hide his burnt face. I do wonder given the timings of the post-Brooks explosion whether Star Wars should be given much more credit for the way fantasy went in that period, despite the lack of spaceships in the written stuff.

[SkynJay]

Webber has never denied that he's writing Hornblower in space. One of his earlier books is dedicated to Foster.

And as weird as it is, Pern is considered scifi in most circles for some reason that makes no sense.

I still think Asprin is good for a laugh or two. It's not like he was trying to create anything epic or meaningful, they were silly fun. I'm still kind of miffed that non one noticed when he passed away. Also, he never wrote books about young girls panties.

Ok, did Pratchett write about young girls panties? Or did i miss the whole point of this?

And as for Pern, it should be fantasy up until All the Weyrs. I know the author didn't even want to offer the back story originally, but did so after taking others opinions. Maybe it is considered Sci-fi because most her other stuff is? I dont know, just tossing it out there.

[Grack21]

Ok, did Pratchett write about young girls panties? Or did i miss the whole point of this?

And as for Pern, it should be fantasy up until All the Weyrs. I know the author didn't even want to offer the back story originally, but did so after taking others opinions. Maybe it is considered Sci-fi because most her other stuff is? I dont know, just tossing it out there.

Pratchet

Oh, no, Piers Anthony's books are gross. Pratchet, as far as I know, avoids porn.

I think the thing with Pern is that when it was published Fantasy was one of those things that YOU DID NOT PUBLISH so it was published as scifi for that reason.

[emberling]

Ok, did Pratchett write about young girls panties? Or did i miss the whole point of this?

Spoilered for offtopic

Piers Anthony's Xanth series had a running gag where people were overly concerned with learning or seeing details of womens' undergarments; it started around when the series started to genuinely suck. It's pretty clearly intended to be an analogue to people being overly concerned with sexuality and sexual attractiveness, transferred into the desexualized Xanth world. Sexuality in that world is sort of a child's-eye reflection, where things are in reality as a child might view them after getting a grossly edited version of The Talk ("when a mommy and daddy love each other very much..."). So it's kind of played like: kids see adults trying to sneak glimpses, so they assume that there's actually something important there, so in this weird reflection-world, there really is something important about it.

It's very much similar in nature to something Pratchett might do, but since it's not a good author doing it, it comes off squicky rather than insightful.

I have no idea what the 'young girls' part comes from - I don't remember exact ages since I mostly read these when they were just 'older than me' - but I don't recall anything gross-young or pre-pubescent (though I certainly haven't read all of them). I can think of a couple creepy pedo scenes in the Apprentice Adept series, though (one of which involves a bad guy who you are obviously meant to think is a creepy pedo, so I see nothing wrong with this; the other isn't really sexualized and is only creepy if you want it to be)

[Galactus]

This is exactly why Eddings started writing fantasy. He had no intention of doing so until he saw how well it was selling. He was also clearly inspired by Star Wars though- in plot terms, and to a certain degree characters, there's a lot more similarities to SW than LotR in the Belgariad. I mean, the main character is a sandy-haired farmboy who lives with his Aunt. And ends up a chosen one with a glowing blue sword, via travelling with a wise wizard and a totally awesome loveable rogue. And the bad guy has a metal mask to hide his burnt face. I do wonder given the timings of the post-Brooks explosion whether Star Wars should be given much more credit for the way fantasy went in that period, despite the lack of spaceships in the written stuff.

If I remember correctly Eddings wasn't directly inspired by Star Wars, but like Lucas he'd read Campbell.

[Grack21]

Spoilered for offtopic

Piers Anthony's Xanth series had a running gag where people were overly concerned with learning or seeing details of womens' undergarments; it started around when the series started to genuinely suck. It's pretty clearly intended to be an analogue to people being overly concerned with sexuality and sexual attractiveness, transferred into the desexualized Xanth world. Sexuality in that world is sort of a child's-eye reflection, where things are in reality as a child might view them after getting a grossly edited version of The Talk ("when a mommy and daddy love each other very much..."). So it's kind of played like: kids see adults trying to sneak glimpses, so they assume that there's actually something important there, so in this weird reflection-world, there really is something important about it.

It's very much similar in nature to something Pratchett might do, but since it's not a good author doing it, it comes off squicky rather than insightful.

I have no idea what the 'young girls' part comes from - I don't remember exact ages since I mostly read these when they were just 'older than me' - but I don't recall anything gross-young or pre-pubescent (though I certainly haven't read all of them). I can think of a couple creepy pedo scenes in the Apprentice Adept series, though (one of which involves a bad guy who you are obviously meant to think is a creepy pedo, so I see nothing wrong with this; the other isn't really sexualized and is only creepy if you want it to be)

Well I stopped reading around book 5 or so, but I remember the protagonists being around age 12 and getting up to thing that 12 year olds shouldn't be getting up to. It's kinda blurry since this was both way back in high school and when I would read something like 7-8 books a week. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way though just from a simple itnernet search. Dude still writes creepy stuff.

Anyway, to unthread jack, who was considered the real first female author in scifi? I mean who published as a female author, and didn't have to hide it.

And when did the Weber bashing start? Did i miss something? That's not at you kurokaze, just the board in general.

[Seli]

Anyway, to unthread jack, who was considered the real first female author in scifi? I mean who published as a female author, and didn't have to hide it.

And when did the Weber bashing start? Did i miss something? That's not at you kurokaze, just the board in general.

Probably Mary Shelley, but I doubt that is what you mean.

[SkynJay]

Well I stopped reading around book 5 or so, but I remember the protagonists being around age 12 and getting up to thing that 12 year olds shouldn't be getting up to. It's kinda blurry since this was both way back in high school and when I would read something like 7-8 books a week. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way though just from a simple itnernet search. Dude still writes creepy stuff.

Anyway, to unthread jack, who was considered the real first female author in scifi? I mean who published as a female author, and didn't have to hide it.

And when did the Weber bashing start? Did i miss something? That's not at you kurokaze, just the board in general.

Did some digging at work and the earliest I found was Margaret Cavendish's The Blazing World, a Utopia type novel that seems sci-fi in the way Verne is. It beats out Mary Shelley by a while.

As for modern sci-fi, still digging.