[No Spoilers] Joffrey's Royal Army

[amore]

It's not military genius, it's stupid.

Westeros is an isolated continent, it's doesn't need a standing army to defend itself, like other places where they actually border enemies.

A standing army is a huge waste of resources with very little benefit, the only one it benefits is the King who can use it against the other houses, that's it. Given the length of winters and the constant battle for survival, to use resources this way to only satisfy the maniacal tendencies of a King is the very definition of despotism. If fits Joff personality perfectly that he would come up with such a ridiculously pompous and wasteful idea.

I completely disagree.

The Targaryen's gained control and held it for a time because they had dragons. Effectively a fantasy world WMD. Without them it would be impossible to enforce military rule over a kingdom the size of Westeros with a Feudal military system.

Under a feudal system bannerman and thralls are required to provide X number of men for Y number of days in a given year. Given the time it takes to send out the orders to gather their forces, converge on a given assembly point and then march anywhere it would be totally ineffective. The chances of actually keeping the army together long enough to get near a battle would be unlikely. Added to which any of the seven kingdoms/realms in rebellion from a pre-planned operation would have considerable time to launch operations unchecked before a counter force could be assembled and marched into position.

The only chance a King would have of effectively controlling this kindom would be if he had a standing army under his control and positioned at key strategic points in all seven realms and the other kingdoms either didn't have a standing army or were forbidden from keeping men under arms at all.

Expensive yes but to suggest that a feudal lord can control an area which is a months travel away from his power centre (KL to Winterfell) is ridiculous.

Any other combination is pure fantasy and totally unrealistic.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

There is no way to effectively control the entire kingdom, even with a standing army you're still months away from being able to get them to the distant parts of the kingdom. That's why Aegon left all the original rulers in charge, because delegating is the only chance to effectively rule the kingdom. And the extra burden a King places on the the various regions to have this standing army is more likely to incite revolt. Because they would know that it's only being established against them. Since they are an isolated continent that don't have to worry about foreign invaders.

As I said, it would be possible to do so if the King had dragons. Without them he will have a massive revolt on his hand the moment he tried to do this. Of course if he had dragons then he wouldn't need to, his Dragons are his standing army and more effective because they can cover long distances quickly.

As it is, the only thing even close to a standing army on Westeros is actually the Night Watch, because they are guard a border.

[Xenophon]

I completely disagree.

I don't think you do. As you say, the only way to enforce military rule over Westeros is with a standing army/some fantasy superweapon. What Scabbard of the Morning is saying is that this would be despotism. The Great Houses would fiercely resist handing this power over to the King, and since Westeros is not under threat of foreign invasion a centralized army would merely serve the King's private rather than the common good.

[Ran]

I side with it not really being military genius. It's an unrealistic notion, primarily driven by the lovely idea that it would give Joffrey control of all military power, answerable only to him, etc. He wants to be a tyrant/dictator/despot even greater than the king already is.

[amore]

There is no way to effectively control the entire kingdom, even with a standing army you're still months away from being able to get them to the distant parts of the kingdom. That's why Aegon left all the original rulers in charge, because delegating is the only chance to effectively rule the kingdom. And the extra burden a King places on the the various regions to have this standing army is more likely to incite revolt. Because they would know that it's only being established against them. Since they are an isolated continent that don't have to worry about foreign invaders.

As I said, it would be possible to do so if the King had dragons. Without them he will have a massive revolt on his hand the moment he tried to do this. Of course if he had dragons then he wouldn't need to, his Dragons are his standing army and more effective because they can cover long distances quickly.

As it is, the only thing even close to a standing army on Westeros is actually the Night Watch, because they are guard a border.

But the King doesn't have dragons and the next major step up militarily from feudalism is to the formation of standing armies. This is why I fail to understand how you can consider this to not be a thought that counts as military genius. In fact you go to the other extreme and call it stupid. Yet at the same time you acknowledge that the NW is effectively a standing army and is only able to function because it is one. It benefits from one of the prime advances of that as well. It is already formed and ready to fight and does not have to rely on many lords to assemble in order to operate. Is that already proven not to be a stupid system?

Your opinion that it is not necessary because of expense does not diminish the military aspects of the idea which is infact exactly the advancement that will one day be made resulting in a vastly more efficient military machine. If realising a military advancement 500 years ahead of time is not genius please tell me what is?

I could also raise the point that the necessary changes to bureaucracy and fiscal policies also cause those nations adopting these reforms to progress from feudal society towards and eventually into nationhood. A form of society that was much more suited to the acceptance of standing armies.

If Westeros is based upon realistic military concepts it will remain in chaos until the king has a standing army or he gets hold of some dragons because it is too darn big for feudalism to ever work there. And with spoilers in mind we know that the later will not happen.

The question that is more important to me is why the writers decided to give this incredibly insightful thought to Joffrey, who lets face it is portrayed as a total idiot in the books?

[Xenophon]

The question that is more important to me is why the writers decided to give this incredibly insightful thought to Joffrey, who lets face it is portrayed as a total idiot in the books?

I don't mean to be rude, but have you read the earlier posts in this thread? Many people are arguing that 1) it isn't all that brilliant an idea, and 2) it fits Joffrey's character perfectly.

The idea of a standing army isn't revolutionary at all. GRRM has said that the Seven Kingdoms is somewhat similar to the Holy Roman Empire in RL, and it was the fondest wish of every Emperor to create a standing army for the HRE. Feudal levies didn't exist because nobody had the idea of a centralized professional army; they existed because the nobility didn't want to give the King that much power and the Kings were unable to wrest it from them.

[Scythian]

The political power in Westeros is a compromise between the great landlords. If a king tries to hire the standing army they will consider it the major threat and compromise will be effectively broken. And without dragons, it will be totally impossible to bring all the seceded parts together, no matter how large royal army will be. It's impossible to rule al this huge land by force, and the realm even lacks primitive bureaucracy.

No, extremely poor idea.

[Scythian]

GRRM has said that the Seven Kingdoms is somewhat similar to the Holy Roman Empire in RL, and it was the fondest wish of every Emperor to create a standing army for the HRE. Feudal levies didn't exist because nobody had the idea of a centralized professional army; they existed because the nobility didn't want to give the King that much power and the Kings were unable to wrest it from them.

Well, actually the HRE did have some kind of standing army, for example in the time of Friedrich II, but it was almost exclusively used outside Germany.

[Lord Varys]

The Holy Roman Empire only resembles the Seven Kingdoms insofar as there were rather powerful 'Landesfürsten' i.e. rulers in their own right back then in Germany. But they are not 'lords' in the sense GRRM created them, they were monarchs - even kings - in their own right. The Emperor was the guy formally above them, but he was not much more than a figurehead. At least later on, during the early time he had more direct control, but the fact that it was a elective monarchy made put a lot of power into the hands of the Kurfürsten who elevted the Emperor. Even although they ended up being Habsburger only, their power base was not within the Empire but in all the regions, lands and realms they owned besides being the Emperors of the HRE.

The King of the Seven Kingdoms may rule through his Lords, but they answer to him, and they have to obey. They are representatives of the King, and they are not monarchs in their own right. Some of them were once, but they are no longer.

[amore]

I don't mean to be rude, but have you read the earlier posts in this thread? Many people are arguing that 1) it isn't all that brilliant an idea, and 2) it fits Joffrey's character perfectly.

The idea of a standing army isn't revolutionary at all. GRRM has said that the Seven Kingdoms is somewhat similar to the Holy Roman Empire in RL, and it was the fondest wish of every Emperor to create a standing army for the HRE. Feudal levies didn't exist because nobody had the idea of a centralized professional army; they existed because the nobility didn't want to give the King that much power and the Kings were unable to wrest it from them.

Don't worry you haven't been rude but i will also say have you actually read my initial post on this thread properly?

I point out that his suggestion is in my estimation 500 years ahead of the current Westerosi level of historical advancement and is therefore a massive leap forward in thinking for an idiot like Joffrey to have made. At no point do i say that Joffrey is ready to implement it and I add that massive administrative changes would have to take place before it would ever be affordable or implementable.

But his comment that a standing professionally trained army would be much more effective is totally accurate and again I believe well beyond his mental skill to have reached.

But the question has also been raised regarding whether a standing army could work and I have said yes. At no point did I say that Joffrey would be able to implement it. All I said was that feudalism will continue to fail and that it will ultimately take a standing army to hold the 7 kingdoms together. My last response adds that by the time is does this Westeros would also socially have moved close to the concept of nationhood and away from what is now effectively a series of 7 "kingly states" where fealty is owed to a series of individuals rather than to the common social recognition of a unified country to which all the people belong. When the people of Westeros think of themselves as Westerosi rather than a Northern peasant or a Dornish Knight then they would be ready to accept the concept of a standing army. Until then it would not work.

The raising of a standing army earlier than this could only be done by one of the 7 kingdoms independently of the others. This would lead to that kingdom having a massive military advantage for a period of time until the other 6 followed their example. At which point the kingdom would have split into 7 kingdoms each with a standing army and the conquest would have to begin all over again.

[Xenophon]

Don't worry you haven't been rude but i will also say have you actually read my initial post on this thread properly?

I point out that his suggestion is in my estimation 500 years ahead of the current Westerosi level of historical advancement and is therefore a massive leap forward in thinking for an idiot like Joffrey to have made.

Yes, I read (and I think understood) your post. What I and others are saying is that there is nothing particularly "historically advanced" about Joffrey's idea. Every medieval king doubtless thought it would be nice to have a permanent core of troops loyal to him rather than to his lords. So Joff's plan doesn't show him to be a brilliant thinker, it just shows him to be extremely naive about how much power the King has vis-a-vis the great houses.

[amore]

Yes, I read (and I think understood) your post. What I and others are saying is that there is nothing particularly "historically advanced" about Joffrey's idea. Every medieval king doubtless thought it would be nice to have a permanent core of troops loyal to him rather than to his lords. So Joff's plan doesn't show him to be a brilliant thinker, it just shows him to be extremely naive about how much power the King has vis-a-vis the great houses.

But every medieval king did have a core of troops who owed fealty to him directly and were therefore his own private army. They would be raised from his own estates and crown lands. The balance of the military power however, lay in the hands of many lords who also had private armies and only owed him a part of this strength for periods of time. Meaning they had to call upon them before the full strength of the realm could be mustered. This was the weakness of the system. The diverstity of leaders, type of unit, equipment and training, combined with the time it took to assemble were all weaker than if they all sang from the same hymn sheet and stood prepard for battle.

Neither that concept or the full recognition of its weaknesses was fully acknowledged during the medieval period. Many historians and notable historical figures have paid tribute to the genius of Adolphus for re-discovering and re-implementing the military efficiences lost since the romans through his reforms, so I don't feel any concern that people on here don't agree with me. Napolean, Wellington, Roberts and Bobbit (to name but a few) did so I'm happy to agree to disagree on this point.

[Ran]

amore,

I point out that his suggestion is in my estimation 500 years ahead of the current Westerosi level of historical advancement

Not really. Westeros is largely in the Hundred Years War-War of the Roses era, with bits and bobs from earlier periods. Western Europe's first standing army, raised by Charles VII in France, was established in 1445, at the tail end of that range.

The Ghiscari cities have their legions, presumably standing armies trained by professionals. The Unsullied are basically standing forces raised by professionals. Doubtless some of the Free Cities may have standing forces, as well. Joff just has to look across the Narrow Sea to get some ideas that would make him realize, "Dude, I'd be way more powerful IF we did this".

[Xenophon]

But every medieval king did have a core of troops who owed fealty to him directly and were therefore his own private army. They would be raised from his own estates and crown lands. The balance of the military power however, lay in the hands of many lords who also had private armies and only owed him a part of this strength for periods of time. Meaning they had to call upon them before the full strength of the realm could be mustered. This was the weakness of the system. The diverstity of leaders, type of unit, equipment and training, combined with the time it took to assemble were all weaker than if they all sang from the same hymn sheet and stood prepard for battle.

Neither that concept or the full recognition of its weaknesses was fully acknowledged during the medieval period. Many historians and notable historical figures have paid tribute to the genius of Adolphus for re-discovering and re-implementing the military efficiences lost since the romans through his reforms, so I don't feel any concern that people on here don't agree with me. Napolean, Wellington, Roberts and Bobbit (to name but a few) did so I'm happy to agree to disagree on this point.

To credit Gustav Adolf with re-discovering the standing army is to over-simplify to the point of absurdity. The Swedish army reforms were explicitly based off the reforms of Maurice of Orange, who in turn was influenced by the shift towards standing armies during the Hundred Years War and Italian wars, which, as others have pointed out, above was preceded by semi-permanent forces under Fredrick II, the Byzantine empire, etc. The idea that people simply forgot about standing armies is part of the myth of the "dark ages", which Napoleon et al. may have believed in, but which has been thoroughly discredited by historians.

Edit: But none of that really matters, since as Ran pointed out, there are plenty of examples in Joffrey's world for him to look at.

[Ser Warpechowski]

The Romans did it far before anyone else.

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

When the people of Westeros think of themselves as Westerosi rather than a Northern peasant or a Dornish Knight then they would be ready to accept the concept of a standing army. Until then it would not work.

Actually, there have been plenty of states with standing armies that staff them with one ethnic group in preference to another. Look at say, Rwanda or Burundi, with their respective historical preference for Hutu or Tutsi. The result, however, is not pleasant; it tends to end in genocide. Given the fractured nature of Westeros, the predisposition for violence, the disregard that the highborn have for smallfolk, and other factors I can definitely see Westeros going through some periods of genocide in its future. The culturally-seperate Dornish or Ironborn, or the yet-to-be-conquered wildlings would be perfect target demographics.

Aside from that, back to economics: I wonder if, say, the Lannisters began to implement the enclosure system in the Westerlands, if a standing army might be possible after all for Joffrey. If peasants were forced from their land to make room for the efficient grazing of sheep, they could be forced to work for low wages in gold mines, or to become sailors in Lannisport's merchant marine, or to go to that city and create primitive textile industry. This is using an Anglocentric set of examples, but I can imagine the Lannisters further bolstering their wealth to the point that they could create a professional fighting force. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe I've seen somewhere that Lannisport has the best pikemen in Westeros. The level of training needed for such an infantry unit suggests that the Lannisters may have already begun the process of building a standing army...of course this is irrelevant if I'm remembering wrong. :-)

[amore]

amore,

Not really. Westeros is largely in the Hundred Years War-War of the Roses era, with bits and bobs from earlier periods. Western Europe's first standing army, raised by Charles VII in France, was established in 1445, at the tail end of that range.

The Ghiscari cities have their legions, presumably standing armies trained by professionals. The Unsullied are basically standing forces raised by professionals. Doubtless some of the Free Cities may have standing forces, as well. Joff just has to look across the Narrow Sea to get some ideas that would make him realize, "Dude, I'd be way more powerful IF we did this".

I accept your reasoning on this. As indicated I was pretty unsure as to how to place Westeros' in terms of our historical development. One of my main reasons for thinking it was circa 1100 was because I don't recall any mention of gunpowder which started to show up in europe during the mid 1200's. But if as you suggest it is in fact in the 1300's that would lessen the impressiveness of the concept as an idea. I bow to your superior judgement on this because you undoubtedly know the books better than I do. I also totally take your point re the Unsullied (I recalled them last night when I was trying to get to sleep and immediately realised the damage they did to my argument :) )

I surrender! ;)

PS - I still think that some sort of standing army will play a big part in the endgame of this story but won't go into any details as this is a spoiler free thread.

PPS - Xenophon, this is my surrender to you as well. I won't respond to your post separately as it would be repetition. :)

[Xenophon]

amore--no problem. :) Hey, I see the appeal in the great man theory of history too. The historians may not like it much, but as you say, it has the advantage of actually having inspired great men!

Back to the subject of Joffrey's plan:

This may be hard to discuss in a No Spoilers thread, since we don't have that much info on them in the show yet, but couldn't Joffrey get something of a standing army just by taking control of the Goldcloaks (the KL guards with the Persian-style helmets)?

They're a ready-made group of professional soldiers who aren't directly affiliated with any of the Great Houses. And, currently they seem to be skulking around behind the King and Hand's backs, taking orders from Littlefinger and Varys. Joffrey the Reformer should make them report directly to the King, perhaps merging them with the Kingsguard (the royal bodyguards in the fancy armor), and he'd have the nucleus of a standing army right there. They'd be like the Byzantine Varangian Guard--a bodyguard unit large enough to double as a field army.

[Darzin]

The Free Cities all have standing armiesits mentioned several times in the books, so while it may be a new idea for Westros it doesn't take a genuis to copy what people are already doing/

[Ser_Aeron_Connel]

The Free Cities all have standing armiesits mentioned several times in the books, so while it may be a new idea for Westros it doesn't take a genuis to copy what people are already doing/

I always got the impression that the Free Cities fielded Italian-style forces, in the sense that while they may have an urban militia (like the Goldcloaks), they rely largely on mercenaries for fighting wars. Presumably each city controls its immediate surrounding, necessary for farming and incidentally the source of a small feudal levy. Also I can see the city leaders bribing Dothraki khals to attack their rivals.